Dutch Shepherd

[mastiffsmom]

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to know everyone's opinion. I was looking into getting a DS and the people that I have spoken with have given me LOTS of negative feedback. The people in my family are me, my mother, my two sons ages 23 and 16 yrs of age and also my foster brother who is 5 yrs of age. Do you think that a DS that has a good outlet can do good in a family home. I am not looking to get a DS until I have placed my 2 fosters.

 

[Zoom]

In general, Dutchies are very drivey, very sharp dogs. They can co-exist just fine in a family setting as long as you understand what you're getting yourself and your family into. Lots of exercise, both physical and mental, and ongoing training is a must!

 

[mastiffsmom]

@ Zoom

Thanks for your input. Most say heck no, they are not good dogs and a whole lot more. I have a friend that has one but doesnt have any kids. He and his partner set up the Lil Tyke toys in the back yard (acre) and his Dutchie loves being out there. He has even taught her how to climb a tree. They do obedience 3 times a week and play 3 days a week and 1 day to just relax. She is an amazing dog. Just wanted to know how a Dutchie would be in a home with children.

 

[Zoom]

It's going to come down to really doing your research and finding lines that have stable temperaments. A lot of breeders in any breed that is used for police work will overly concentrate on getting really keyed-up dogs with tons of drive and neglect the balance needed to make a good all-around dog.

 

[Pops2]

how many mals, working line GSD etc have you owned? seriously you're friends dutchie sounds laid back. most need obedience daily AND play daily w/ maybe 1-2 days off a month. finding a dog like theirs will be EXTREMELY hard. what do you plan on doing to meet the dogs needs for stimulation & exercise?
i would never reccommend one to anyone unless they were going to be DEEPLY involved in PP sport like KNPV or ring. even then i wouldn't reccommend them to anyone that hasn't had a good GSD or mal first. they are too much dog for most people.

 

[mastiffsmom]

@ Pops2

i hear what you say about getting a good GSD or Mal before getting a DS. i have been told by some critics saying that the Mal was worst to have then a DS and should not be around kids. so which breed would be better to have the Mal or the DS.

 

[Laurelin]

What are you planning on doing with the mal or DS? What draws you to them?

I have heard of dutchies being called mals on crack. Not sure if that's true, don't have any experience with the breed. From everyone into protection sports I've talked to seem to agree that mals and dutchies are both breeds not to be taken lightly.

 

[sillysally]

i hear what you say about getting a good GSD or Mal before getting a DS. i have been told by some critics saying that the Mal was worst to have then a DS and should not be around kids. so which breed would be better to have the Mal or the DS.

Out of curiosity, is there any reason you don't want a good GSD. When gotten from the right lines/breeder, they can be excellent family dogs and while they definitely still need a job and stimulation aren't generally on the same level as a mal or dutch shepherds.....

 

[Equinox]

Haha, Laurelin, I've heard the same... I've heard of Dutch Shepherds being a mix between Belgian Malinois and squirrels and then put on steroids... I heard this coming from someone who has worked with many Dutch Shepherds and said this in a complimentary way. However, while this may be desirable for a working or sport dog, if you intend to find a good family dog that's good with children, neither a Dutch Shepherd nor a Belgian Malnios may be a good choice, depending on your lifestyle and experience.

I've known of families who let their 8 or 9 year old daughter handle their Belgian Malinois on the Schutzhund field, during the protection phase. The daughter was in complete control of the dog. The first Mal I met belonged to a family with two young children and was impeccably well behaved. But these aren't your average dog owners, but people who know the breed and meet the requirements of owning such a breed, and know how to handle and work with one. Both the Mal and the Dutchie are sharp, tough, driven dogs. They are one of those (relatively rare) breeds that are serious working breeds, though there certainly are laid back dogs among the breed. But even then, there's a lot to consider. They aren't bad breeds to have, just not suitable for most families.

What draws you in to these breeds as opposed to a, say, Golden Retriever or even German Shepherd?

 

[Xandra]

Ok, now I was under the impression that there are different lines of so-called Dutch shepherds... dogs registered under the FCI as "Dutch shepherds" and dogs bred by the KNPV (Royal Dutch Police) which are a conglomeration of a bunch of things, and when they come out brindle as opposed to fawn they are called Dutch shepherds. The KNPV dogs, being strictly bred for working are the true crazies, and the FCI dogs (which are shown in conformation, come in long coats, etc) are more normal.

ETA:

The first is the FCI registered Dutch Shepherd. These dogs are bred to FCI standards with official pedigrees and generally compete in conformation shows and or are trained in various dog sports and working pursuits such as IPO, Agility and SAR. These dogs, like most pedigree dogs, are in the main, bred more for conformation showing as per FCI Standards, with only a few breeders concentrating on producing these dogs specifically for working pursuits. The registered Dutch Shepherd is not a large breed in terms of numbers with approximately 4000 dogs currently registered with the FCI.

The second type of Dutch Shepherd is that most commonly found in the Royal Dutch Police Dog or "Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging" (KNPV) training program. Here in it’s homeland the Dutch Shepherd is one of the mainstay breeds of the KNPV, along with the ever-popular Malinois. In fact a Dutch Shepherd called "Fritz" won an international Police dog competition in Germany back in 1908.
...
Within the KNPV program, the Dutch Shepherd has survived without the influence and pressures of the conformation circles and has not been restricted by the need for an official pedigree. The Dutch Shepherd of the KNPV program is, and always has been, bred to be a working police dog. Even within the KNPV program, compared to the Malinois, the Dutch Shepherd is only relatively small in population yet continues to maintain a working police dog heritage that few breeds can match. Since the year 2000 the Dutch Shepherd has been winning the national KNPV championships on a regular basis. The 2001 PH1, 2002 PH2, 2003 PH2, 2006 PH1 titles were won by Dutch Shepherds, not to mention all the 2nd and 3rd places gained by other high quality Dutch Shepherds.
...
The difference with the unregistered Dutch Shepherds found in the KNPV program is that they have a strong influence of Malinois blood in them. Without the restriction of official registration or pedigree, the definition of whether a dog is a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd, primarily comes down to appearance. When a Malinois is bred to a Dutch Shepherd some of the pups will be born with a Fawn coat and will be known as a Malinois, while others will be born with a brindle coat and will be known as a Dutch Shepherd. One legendry KNPV Dutch Shepherd was Arras Pegge. While Arras had a Dutch Shepherd for a mother his father was a Malinois. This simple classification process has allowed the unregistered Dutch Shepherd (and unregistered Malinois for that matter) to develop and maintain a large gene pool for breeding. Although the unregistered Dutch Shepherd can carry a good deal of Malinois blood, people often comment that they still maintain the often desirable traits of the Dutch Shepherd, that is, a highly driven, sometimes stubborn dog with more calmness than a Malinois. They are also often described as “a Malinois with an off switch!â€

http://vankamphuis.com/dutchiehistory.pdf

We prefer the KNPV line Dutch Shepherds from Holland compared to the FCI lines out of Germany because the KNPV lines are bred for pure working ability, size, prey and hunt drives.

Vandalia Kennel Dutch Shepherds - What is a Dutch Shepherd?

I have owned and followed this breed very closely for a few years now. Two varieties of the breed basically exist. The first is the FCI Papered Dutch Shepherd, the second being of mixed KNPV lines. FCI Dutch Shepherds tend to be smaller, far less Police Quality, and more sporty. The KNPV lines have plenty of Mals mixed in them to bring in Aggression and fight. Many people will say that there are distinct differences between them and Mals. FCI Dutch, and Mals are a world apart. Mixed Dutch and Mals aren't much different at all. If the Mixed Dutch are consistantly breed for Police KNPV, then the only major difference I see is color. There are so many Mals in the gene pool. For example probably the greatest Dutch Shepherd in recent years is ARRAS Pegge. His sire is a Malinois. I had an Arras daughter who was a Malinois. The difference is color.

Bryan

Quote:
So I have a question then - a breeder friend of mine has 100% Dutch Shepherds. The dogs papered from Holland are 100% Dutch Shepherds; however, everytime he breeds one bitch, he gets the majority of the litter brindle and one Mal-marked one?

____________________________

there are VERY few 100% Dutch shepherd lines that work. vastenow is the only one i can name off hand. if two of these dogs breed, they should only produce brindle dogs. the thing to keep in mind is when you say they are "papered", that doesn't mean they are FCI registered. just because they have a pedigree and a BRN number, doesn't mean they're FCI registered, and thus could have Mal in the mix...

Leerburg.com Discussion Forum: Happy to discuss Dutch Shepherds

ETA II:
So perhaps you're looking for an FCI dog, as they seem to be the more pet-oriented. The KNPV dogs were never intended to be companion dogs, but tools for police work.

 

[Equinox]

KNPV dogs are crazy intense, but from what I've seen, FCI Dutch Shepherds are still too much dog for most people, aren't they? I know of two that aren't KNPV (actually, haven't met a KNPV dog before) and they are still incredibly driven dogs. KNPV may breed for true, serious aggression, but even sport oriented dogs aren't easy to handle and raise.

Have you met any KNPV "Dutch Shepherds" and FCI Dutch Shepherds? I did know about mixing breeds, but the difference just being color is interesting. Thanks for the links!

 

[Xandra]

KNPV dogs are crazy intense, but from what I've seen, FCI Dutch Shepherds are still too much dog for most people, aren't they? I know of two that aren't KNPV (actually, haven't met a KNPV dog before) and they are still incredibly driven dogs. KNPV may breed for true, serious aggression, but even sport oriented dogs aren't easy to handle and raise.

Have you met any KNPV "Dutch Shepherds" and FCI Dutch Shepherds? I did know about mixing breeds, but the difference just being color is interesting. Thanks for the links!

Nope! I've never even seen one. Unfortunately my experience is limited to Mals and GSDs. I just quoted what I'd read.

 

[corgipower]

I have heard of dutchies being called mals on crack.

That would be a truly scary dog.

Ok, now I was under the impression that there are different lines of so-called Dutch shepherds... dogs registered under the FCI as "Dutch shepherds" and dogs bred by the KNPV (Royal Dutch Police) which are a conglomeration of a bunch of things, and when they come out brindle as opposed to fawn they are called Dutch shepherds. The KNPV dogs, being strictly bred for working are the true crazies, and the FCI dogs (which are shown in conformation, come in long coats, etc) are more normal.

Yep. Pretty much my understanding too.

The breed history of both dutchies and malis is a bit uncertain. Malis can throw brindles, which some believe indicates a mix with DS and others believe to be a throwback gene. There are some who think the DS came from the same origins as the Belgians and were developed into their own breed with conformation being a primary focus and as a result of that full dutchies don't have as much drive as malis or dutchXmali.

KNPV dutchies are certainly going to be a very driven, serious, hard core dog. So are KNPV malis - much different dog from most of what's seen in this country. And KNPV anything for that matter.

For the OP, I'd like to know your reason for wanting a dutchie as well.

 

[Equinox]

Nope! I've never even seen one. Unfortunately my experience is limited to Mals and GSDs. I just quoted what I'd read.

I'd just love to see a KNPV dog work in person someday. Now, out of curiousity, since I have limited knowledge regarding SchH, but are KNPV dogs popular for the sport? Or rather uncommon?

And KNPV anything for that matter.

No kidding. KNPV is crazy. Amazing dogs, just on the crazy side (not in a bad sense depending on what you want, of course).

Belgians and Dutchies are gorgeous and completely breathtaking. But I'd be extremely hesitant to own one purely because I lack the experience. Although around here there's a breeder focusing on conformation with her Mals and breeding for good family pets. Bah.

 

[Pops2]

FCI is still A LOT of dog kind of like a laid back working mal or a strong working GSD. not at all right for most pet homes. i've got the scars on my right arm to show what happens when people get more dog than they are prepared for. but my inlaws (like the OP) didn't want to hear they were amking a bad decision. i & their oldest daughter paid for it in blood and their younger children had the trauma of seeing my attack & me choke their GSD out. and eventually it cost the dog his life. i feel certain that i could have made a good hard dog of him if i had been able to take him & train him after he bit me.

 

[DanL]

I'd just love to see a KNPV dog work in person someday. Now, out of curiousity, since I have limited knowledge regarding SchH, but are KNPV dogs popular for the sport? Or rather uncommon?



No kidding. KNPV is crazy. Amazing dogs, just on the crazy side (not in a bad sense depending on what you want, of course).

Belgians and Dutchies are gorgeous and completely breathtaking. But I'd be extremely hesitant to own one purely because I lack the experience. Although around here there's a breeder focusing on conformation with her Mals and breeding for good family pets. Bah.

I've posted this one before, here's a KNPV Dutchie:
YouTube - Spike Van Leeuwen
YouTube - Spike stok2

 

[OutlineACDs]

Interesting stuff guys.

I know 3 dutchies in person. All three are very good dogs. One dog was training for S&R but he mostly is a running/biking buddy for his owner. The other two are owned by the smae lady and I'm not exactly sure what she does with them. Every time I have seen her the dogs have been with her, but as far as I know they are just her pets. They may do some things on the side. She has them really well trained as they pretty much accompany her off leash. Neither of them are dog or human aggressive.

 

[mastiffsmom]

@ OutlineACDs

from 100% of the people on the board, that is not common and it is one in the million. i have been told from people on this board that if a Dutchie is a bit softer than it is not a Dutchie. i guess the person you know went to a breeder that knows their dogs and know their lines. thanks for the reassurance that i am not freaking CRAZY!!!

Interesting stuff guys.

I know 3 dutchies in person. All three are very good dogs. One dog was training for S&R but he mostly is a running/biking buddy for his owner. The other two are owned by the smae lady and I'm not exactly sure what she does with them. Every time I have seen her the dogs have been with her, but as far as I know they are just her pets. They may do some things on the side. She has them really well trained as they pretty much accompany her off leash. Neither of them are dog or human aggressive.

 

[OutlineACDs]

I didn't say it was common, but its two different people and 3 different dutchies.

Bothe people have said "they have their moments." when I asked about the dogs being over the top.

Sometimes I think it's a case of the dog/breed being matched with the right family. My mom tells me all the time that my dogs are "a lot of work" and "why do I like dogs that are so needy and active". I think the ACD's are perfect. I have no problems out of my crew and I love every minute of it.

I think these two ladies that I know, ended up with the breed because they enjoy the quirks and nuances and can properly deal with the dogs. One of the people is an avid bike rider and trains for triathalons etc. She's very active and her dog is her biking/running buddy.

Mastiffmom, I think you are looking for people to tell you they are great and would be a great family dog. No one will tell you that. All dogs need work and time and training to be good dogs and some breeds need more of it than others.

Please spend time with the breed and with good breeders before making your descision. Offer to housesit a puppy for a weekend. Or even an adult dog. Then see if you can commit to the time and energy it takes.

 

[Pops2]

a lot has to do w/ perspective, there are a bunch of blue & rednosed hippos out there w/ papers saying they are pit bulldogs. i've handled the real deal and those hippos are not pit bulldogs. likewise all the dogs shaped right but w/o the courage & tenacity might look like bulldogs but they aren't really because the personality is part of the package.
and yes a lot of my PP & K9 friends & aquaintences would say those dogs look like DS but they aren't really DS. if thats what you're looking for & can find it by all means enjoy your future brindle dog.