Dogs that can never be off leash

[PWCorgi]

Proofing a recall is about the only time I would ever consider putting an e-collar on one of my dogs. I think it is important to realize though, whether you have a dog who can handle that kind of tool, because fall out can happen.

I'm not a fan of +P, but a solid recall can be a literal life-saver. The world is a dangerous, dangerous place for dogs, and we need to keep them safe, even if that sometimes means unpleasant things happen. And yes, you could just never let them run off-leash, but I feel like that ability to really get out and stretch their legs, to have those off-leash hikes in the woods, that time spent bonding, is a far greater good for the dogs, in terms of quality of life, than the bad of a properly employed e-collar. Realistically, if you are doing it correctly, the dog should only ever get a correction maybe a couple of times. If you are correcting them on a regular basis, you need to re-evaluate your training plan.

So yeah, e-collars aren't my favorite, but neither is my dog being smooshed by a car. Lesser of two evils, IMO. So if you want to use one, do it, but make sure you are working with a trainer if you don't know how to do it on your own.

 

[DJEtzel]

Just an FYI if your dog is very clever.. they can learn when the ecollar is on and when it isn't. Have known a few people (I have never used one for a recall) who faced this issue with smart dogs who are good at putting things together.

Absolutely. Making sure that dogs do not become collar smart is the first step to training with an e collar. This is a fantastic reason why professionals should be involved with those that aren't familiar with e collar training.

 

[Stillwater]

I find that some breeds are better than others.

My working dogs, and in the past my herding dogs, have never ever needed a leash. They never needed training. They were instinctively there by my side. I do not need leashes with my Great Danes at all. My old Rottweiler in the past was born trained.

But anything with any sort of hunt instinct, I keep on leash. I trust my oldest PRT off leash, but not the others. Well except for the puppies, they are 9 months old and they stay right with me. But my 2 year old Bitch and my 2 year old Dog, absolutely not. Well the Dog would be ok actually. But he just is a bit of an ADD fella. But he will not run off. But the bitch. Absolutely not. She will shoot me a bird and get what she was hunting. She has gotten out of my fence at home and has thankfully come to me when called. Or she will find something in the ground and will not leave it at all.

It does not matter how upset I am though, when I catch one that has run off or out of my fence, I am always happy to see them. Even if I want to throttle the dog. I pet them and tell them they are good.

My ibizan hound will be good off leash after he is older. He is always easy to catch but I still do not trust him and I do not want to put myself through him running off. He will jump my 5 foot chain link fence and takes off behind us. It scares me to no end because I have acreage, but I am on a highway and people drive very fast down it. Thankfully he goes behind us into the woods and comes out about a half mile back on a dead end road with no traffic. He has not gotten out in months, but when he did I would give him about 20 minutes then drive back there and get him. He will hear my diesel truck and come and run me down and leap in the back seat. I die a thousand deaths when he does that, but I assure you I am the happiest person ever when he runs my truck down. That is how I know that dog can run 40 mph. He literally chased me down one day when he got out and I could not find him for 5 VERY LONG hours, I had turned into panic mode and was knocking on doors looking for him, and people had seen him back there. I was going thru a neighborhood that was never finished 3 miles from my house and looked in my rearview and he was flying down the road after me and gaining on me. I slammed on my breaks and jumped out and he leaped into my arms. I carried him back to the truck. Never so happy to see him. I think the fool scared himself that day.

I have nothing against an E collar when used properly. I have been looking for a good one to purchase actually.

 

[SpringerLover]

Both Buzz and Bailey wore ecollars when they were younger and we lived with my parents. We were the perfect example of why you shouldn't just be able to buy an ecollar. Huge fallout. It didn't even work the way we'd hoped. When I got more into training and my training style changed, I swore I would never again use an ecollar.

And I haven't. Buzz was managed very carefully so that I never felt the need for one. Good old training fixed the problem with Bailey pretty easily. In the last year I have considered getting a collar with vibration and stim because Bailey is now deaf. I can't actually bring myself to do it. I just manage her situations carefully.

I don't think they are evil torture devices but I can't see myself ever using one again. I can't find a single a situation where I think it would be the best option.

 

[Jadex]

Ryker used to have good recall when he was younger then he hit about 8 months and started taking off. I will never trust either of mine off leash. We can get the "off leash" feeling with 50ft long lines and they can get their zoomies out in the fenced yard. It's really not that big of a deal to go on hikes while they are leashed and it gives you a good opportunity to train and bond instead of just walking while the dog runs around.

 

[BostonBanker]

Both of mine are off leash very regularly, although with both I am a bit careful about where. On their own, both will recall off of pretty much anything, including game. Together, they tend to be a bit less responsive, but still are quite good.

Gusto was off-leash from the very beginning; I actually feel it helps, as it is the 'norm'. I know some people wait until the dogs are older and they feel more confident in the recall. I started early when he wasn't going to go running away anyway, and made it a complete non-event to have the leash taken off. I know a lot of dogs who are super responsive when leashed, and as soon as it is unclipped, they are just gone mentally. For my dogs, the leash on or off is pretty irrelevant.

Luckily I have dogs who do well off-leash, aren't big wanderers, and I live in an area where it is pretty easy to find incredibly safe places to hike. Even if my two are chasing something in the woods while we are hiking and I don't call them off, it is pretty rare for either to leave my sight even for a second. I can't think of the last time we were hiking where I couldn't see them.

Shock collars aren't an option for me, and I can't fathom that either of my dogs would respond well even if I wanted to use one.

 

[Kootenay]

I have ended up using an e-collar with Yarrow. He would be completely miserable spending his life on a leash (or long line, which I find just doesn't work very well in large groups of dogs anyway!), I did it for a couple of months and noticed a massive change in him, he was not fulfilled, even though I did a lot of running/biking/long walks. He just needs space and his long offleash hikes/playing with the other dogs/general freedom. I worked long and hard on his recall but it simply wasn't 100%, and especially with him being dog aggressive with new dogs, I need a 100% recall, absolutely (for those rare times I might see someone with a dog out on our walks).

For us, it has been a lifesaver, absolutely. His recall is excellent now, even when he's not wearing the collar, but he still wears it any time we are out offleash in public (and much of the time on our property too, just in case). I understand that it's not something some people would want to use or feel comfortable with, but it has worked really well for Yarrow, and I can totally guarantee that he is a WAY happier dog than if he had to be on leash for the rest of his life.

 

[Elrohwen]

Gusto was off-leash from the very beginning; I actually feel it helps, as it is the 'norm'. I know some people wait until the dogs are older and they feel more confident in the recall. I started early when he wasn't going to go running away anyway, and made it a complete non-event to have the leash taken off. I know a lot of dogs who are super responsive when leashed, and as soon as it is unclipped, they are just gone mentally. For my dogs, the leash on or off is pretty irrelevant.

This was how I raised Watson, but it didn't work for us at all. Like Ryker, once he hit 8-9 months he was just not reliable. His prey and hunt drive switched on and he decided that recall was optional. Now he's one of those dogs who clearly knows when the leash is on and off and he checks out mentally as soon as it's off.

 

[DJEtzel]

I did the same puppy off leash training with all three of my boys and so far, it's worked for us. Patton is still young and intact, but he's been competing off leash since 7 months in dog-heavy areas, so I juse don't see that changing... I'm happy with how lucky I've gotten... Off leash reliability is an important requirement for me when searching for a dog.

Recon is the biggest flight risk due to sound sensitivity, but we've made a ton of progress on his recovery time and coming to me when he's afraid instead of running to the hills. Lol

Frag used to be iffy with cats and deer, but with time came more impulse control and he is fine now.

 

[*blackrose]

Abrams was raised off leash as well and with him, I do think it helped. Being "off leash" was normal for him, so he didn't loose his mind right away when the leash came off. We do most of our training off leash, too, and I believe that has also helped. We never had to "fade out" out leash as a means of enforcement, because he was never on one.

It was also a huge, huge benefit having Cynder around. He'd follow her, and she'd follow us. So when she was recalled, he'd recall, too. Cheating, but it worked!

Having a dog that can be off leash is really important to me. Chloe, my old dog/parents' dog, can't be off leash. Ever. She grew up on a drag line/flexi due to my fear of not wanting her to be off lead until she had a 100% reliable recall, and now she can't be off lead at all. She is extremely lead wise. Even if she just has a small thin drag line she will stick around and listen to commands, but as soon as that lead comes off she bolts to the hills and won't come back until she's done exploring. It was just easier to manage her on a drag line than work on her bolting, so I never bothered while I was at home, and now it's too late. She isn't able to take advantage of my parents' 10 acres like our other dogs are, and that seems like a shame. When the other dogs go out to potty and get to run around a bit, she's on a flexi. Which, after almost 8 years, I guess we've all gotten used to.

 

[JacksonsMom]

It does amaze me with some breeds how a lot of them are just so naturally inclined to stay close. My uncles GSD never need training of any sorts. She's over 2 now and hasn't changed so I don't see it happening. She will just always be a good "off leash" dog. He was so happy too after having a Husky for years who always ran away.

Jackson's terrier side in him is what makes me the most nervous. Plus he's SUCH an explorer. For us, the long line isn't a huge deal, but if I had multiple dogs, it WOULD be very annoying. Thankfully he gets a lot of off leash running time at my dads place with a fence.

I would never use an e-collar on him because 1.) he's a super sensitive dog, and I think it would shut him down, and make him fearful. If he got buzzed, even quickly/lightly, he wouldn't run to me -- he would likely run in the opposite direction. When he's hurt or scared, that's what he does (coming to me doesn't comfort him lol). and 2.) IF he did in fact get used to it, I truly don't see him caring if he was on the chase of a bunny or something.

With the kind of dog Jackson is, I think an e-collar could potentially ruin him and make him fearful of even being outside. So to us it wouldn't be worth it when he gets plenty of exercise and stimulation without always being completely off leash.

 

[sassafras]

I think just, know your dog. I'm sure that using an e-collar at all, for anything, with Pip would ruin him. Fortunately he's an orbiter, so for recall it would never be needed.

Squash could tolerate it and not miss a beat. So far I haven't had to consider it, his recall training in other ways has been successful when we've really needed it - a couple of equipment failures where he's ended up off leash running down the alley and so far, so good.

Maisy is the only one of mine who I think I would "need" to use it for this purpose specifically, but I'm honestly not completely sure how she would handle it. At times she can be resilient and at times she can be mentally fragile. So probably never will, she's perfectly happy mushing her life away on lines and occasionally getting deep wilderness off leash time.

 

[*blackrose]

Forgot to mention that with Chloe, I'm not sure how she'd take an e-collar either. Not very well, I don't think. We tried and electric fence with her and she was so shook up by it when we did boundary training that she remembered the boundaries - and then gave them a 50 foot berth at all times and would get stressed if we tried to make her actually walk deeper into the yard.

Then the fence broke and it was a no go anyway. But I'm sure she's much happier living her life on a long line than trying to train a recall with an e-collar.

 

[Elrohwen]

I do have plans to try an ecollar eventually with Watson, though I would like to take the most gentle approach possible and not just zap the crap out of him. He can be sensitive, but not when he's outside and there are critters and things, so I think it will be ok. He also runs to me and tries to climb up into my arms when he's scared, so I know it wouldn't cause him to run off. We did tons and tons of recall practice when he was young, and had him off the leash a lot, so I think the foundation is there, I just need a way to enforce the recall and make it non-optional.

He doesn't want to run for the hills, but very true to his breed he wants to orbit around me hunting and his orbits are just too far for comfort. One time he did orbit into the woods out of sight and we lost him for 20min. Once he realized we weren't with him he panicked and ran back home, but it was a scary 20min. So he he wants to stay with us, but I just can't mentally reach him when he's hunting and he won't recall off of animals.

He's been on a long line almost exclusively since he started to run off at 9 months, but I would really like to be able to have him off leash eventually if I can, so I'm willing to try the ecollar. We will likely always live on places with a fair bit of land (and not a lot of fences), and it's such a shame he can't enjoy it beyond a 30ft long line.

 

[Jadex]

I've used the e-collar for Ryker and it did not work 100%. I could smack him with a 2x4 and he wouldn't blink. It did work UNLESS he smelt something that he really wanted then he would be gone. I think it might work better for a more sensitive dog.

 

[*blackrose]

I do have plans to try an ecollar eventually with Watson, though I would like to take the most gentle approach possible and not just zap the crap out of him. He can be sensitive, but not when he's outside and there are critters and things, so I think it will be ok. He also runs to me and tries to climb up into my arms when he's scared, so I know it wouldn't cause him to run off. We did tons and tons of recall practice when he was young, and had him off the leash a lot, so I think the foundation is there, I just need a way to enforce the recall and make it non-optional.

He doesn't want to run for the hills, but very true to his breed he wants to orbit around me hunting and his orbits are just too far for comfort. One time he did orbit into the woods out of sight and we lost him for 20min. Once he realized we weren't with him he panicked and ran back home, but it was a scary 20min. So he he wants to stay with us, but I just can't mentally reach him when he's hunting and he won't recall off of animals.

He's been on a long line almost exclusively since he started to run off at 9 months, but I would really like to be able to have him off leash eventually if I can, so I'm willing to try the ecollar. We will likely always live on places with a fair bit of land (and not a lot of fences), and it's such a shame he can't enjoy it beyond a 30ft long line.

For what it's worth, you're not supposed to "zap the crap" out of them.

This was the protocol we essentially followed with Cynder and Cooper, although at the time Michael was the one handling the training (they were his dogs) and did this without any prompting from me. I just wanted to make sure he was using it correctly, and was assured when I found this article. lol
http://www.loucastle.com/fit-an-ecollar

 

[Sekah]

I'm kind of uncomfortable with the casual usage of e-collars for issues of recall. I say this with no intention to insult anyone in this thread. I've been there and I've contemplated using an e-collar with Cohen after a bad experience or two. But instead I signed up for Recallers, I upped my training and management. It's taken some time, but I'm now very comfortable with where she is when it comes to off-leash reliability.

I know she's a herder and blahblahblah, but to me it signifies that there are other options out there. I think that many people don't quite understand the mechanics of training a dog with an e-collar (myself included) and the temptation is great to simply slap one on a dog without doing the requisite groundwork.

Mega's recall is stellar too. Her off-leash behaviour is mediocre, but she'll recall like a bullet when I call.

 

[DJEtzel]

I agree to an extent Sekah.

What sucks is that most people who think you slap an e collar on and "zap the crap" out of them also don't have the understanding of working basic +R training to get a solid recall. It's kind of a lose lose situation unless you have a specifically special dog or are looking for something extremely precise (or on a a time crunch) with the proper knowledge on training with a collar.

 

[Elrohwen]

For what it's worth, you're not supposed to "zap the crap" out of them.

Oh, yeah, I'm fully aware. ;-) But that's not the advice I've gotten from some trainers, which is why I'm probably going to do it myself. My plan was to use Lou Castle's method. I did have one corrections based trainer recommend his method to me because I'm a "softer" trainer than her, but she didn't really agree with how he did it and preferred a "stronger" approach to ecollar training. So yeah, there are trainers out there with UDs and hunting titles who are shocking the crap out of their dogs.

ETA: For what it's worth, I'm still not 100% comfortable with ecollars for recall training which is why I haven't done it yet. But I'm getting to the point where I don't think any amount of recall training is going to make Watson reliable off leash if there are no consequences for blowing me off. So far it's been 2 years of recall training and he's only gotten less reliable with age and time.

 

[Elrohwen]

I agree to an extent Sekah.

What sucks is that most people who think you slap an e collar on and "zap the crap" out of them also don't have the understanding of working basic +R training to get a solid recall. It's kind of a lose lose situation unless you have a specifically special dog or are looking for something extremely precise (or on a a time crunch) with the proper knowledge on training with a collar.

The woman I know who likes to give strong ecollar corrections has UDs and hunting titles on her dogs. I do agree that she didn't have much understanding of +R training in general though.