'Dog Whisperer' being sued for injury of dog!

[Doberluv]

That's utter nonsense. Working dogs, pets...who cares? They're animals and abuse toward ANY animal is despecable!!!!! Hanging until unconscious???!!!!!!

I am talking about those dogs who, under no circumstances, respects the handler.

Dogs are NOT born to disrespect anyone. They are taught. That's is all b.s. Dominance and confidence do not equal disrespect and do not warrant abuse. If someone doesn't have a clue how to earn respect from their dog without man handling them, then they shouldn't work with them or have one.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

It's not the dog's fault it was taught to be dominant and aggressive. The HANDLER should be blamed for TRAINING a dog to attack the hand that feeds hims. The handler DESERVES THAT BITE!

 

[whatszmatter]

That's utter nonsense. Working dogs, pets...who cares? They're animals and abuse toward ANY animal is despecable!!!!! Hanging until unconscious???!!!!!!



Dogs are NOT born to disrespect anyone. They are taught. That's is all b.s. Dominance and confidence do not equal disrespect and do not warrant abuse. If someone doesn't have a clue how to earn respect from their dog without man handling them, then they shouldn't work with them or have one.

when you guys get some crazy import or get a dog for evaluation from someone else, and it is going to kill you, literally and its already had many "wins" for few years against humans let me know how it goes. I'd be willing to bet you've never faced a dog with the intensity, drive or flaws that he has. and i'm twice as sure you've never trained a dog or produced dogs that are out on the street saving lives everyday. When you get there, then you tell me what you do, and how you got thru to the dog that was going kill you. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

I've met Ed on more than one occassion, he has changed his stance, and he is NOT an evil man. anyone else here have personal knowledge or just internet info??

 

[Adrienne]

Katya, mine and my mom's C.O. probably falls under the catagory of big, mean, evil dog. She has intentions to kill anyone who is a perceived threat. She was evaluated as a low-drive dog but sadly that was not an accurate depiction of what she really is. Even though she is determined when she feels there is a threat around I certainly do not need to hang her from her choke chain, in fact there is no possible way I could do that as she is well over 100 lbs.

It doesn't matter how determined or high drive a dog is. It will still respond to regular corrections like any other dog if given at the appropriate time and in the correct manner. There is never a need to abuse a dog just because it could be a possible danger. If you own a dog that can't be controlled in public then keep it out of the publics way, it's that simple. You need to always be responsible for your dogs actions, good solid training will never lead to a dog that is untrustworthy, it will lead to one that looks to you for the correct response to any given situation.

 

[Dobiegurl]

** I am talking about those dogs who, under no circumstances, respects the handler. Alot has to do with the upbringings of these puppies to adults but the problem must be fixed. Its either that or they get pts**

Ok, I think I just said most of it has to do with the upbringings of the dog, so if thats your only argument then thats pathetic.

Doberluv, working dogs are bred for confidence (which in the wild is a part of dominance). You cannot deny the fact that some dogs are born dominant and once they mature they will assert themselves to be pack leader.

People breeding these dogs, sometimes create too much of a working dog, one that is exaggerated with all the working traits.

You can ask anyone who trains working dogs and they will tell you that there is a BIG difference between pets and working dogs. They are not treated the same way. While at home you discourage your dog from biting, in my household I ENCOURAGE it. When the pet is jumping you fix that behavior, with my working dog, I encourage it. When my dog is barking I ENCOURAGE it. Certain behaviors that are corrected while pets are still puppies are not corrected in working dogs until AFTER they get the right drive and focus for the work they plan on doing. Manners are not as important as drive, all that stuff is fixed AFTER your dog builds its drive and focus.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Katya, mine and my mom's C.O. probably falls under the catagory of big, mean, evil dog. She has intentions to kill anyone who is a perceived threat. She was evaluated as a low-drive dog but sadly that was not an accurate depiction of what she really is. Even though she is determined when she feels there is a threat around I certainly do not need to hang her from her choke chain, in fact there is no possible way I could do that as she is well over 100 lbs.

It doesn't matter how determined or high drive a dog is. It will still respond to regular corrections like any other dog if given at the appropriate time and in the correct manner. There is never a need to abuse a dog just because it could be a possible danger. If you own a dog that can't be controlled in public then keep it out of the publics way, it's that simple. You need to always be responsible for your dogs actions, good solid training will never lead to a dog that is untrustworthy, it will lead to one that looks to you for the correct response to any given situation.

No, the hanging is not done for attacking anyone, its done when the dog will not respect the leader which is the handler. Ed is reffering to dogs who have been worked in bite work and know their capabilities and WILL take out the handler. Some of those dogs should not have been worked in Protection but whats done is done. These dogs Ed is reffering to are the ones who WILL KILL the handler. I look at it like this, its the dog or the handler and one must act before the other.

 

[Dobiegurl]

when you guys get some crazy import or get a dog for evaluation from someone else, and it is going to kill you, literally and its already had many "wins" for few years against humans let me know how it goes. I'd be willing to bet you've never faced a dog with the intensity, drive or flaws that he has. and i'm twice as sure you've never trained a dog or produced dogs that are out on the street saving lives everyday. When you get there, then you tell me what you do, and how you got thru to the dog that was going kill you. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

I've met Ed on more than one occassion, he has changed his stance, and he is NOT an evil man. anyone else here have personal knowledge or just internet info??

I have not met Ed, but I would love to.

I agree with you. These dogs that Ed trains or offers advice for are out saving lives but he still doesn't get credit. My dog will NEVER get away with attacking me and I cannot believe people would put a human life at the expense of a dog getting hung for a minute. These dogs are powerful, strong, confident and have been trained to BITE. That is not a good combination for a handler agressive dog. They can take the handler out with no hesitation. But I'm sure the dog will think twice when he remembers who is REALLY in charge.

 

[Adrienne]

No, the hanging is not done for attacking anyone, its done when the dog will not respect the leader which is the handler. Ed is reffering to dogs who have been worked in bite work and know their capabilities and WILL take out the handler. Some of those dogs should not have been worked in Protection but whats done is done. These dogs Ed is reffering to are the ones who WILL KILL the handler. I look at it like this, its the dog or the handler and one must act before the other.

I don't get why any dog that had the intensity to be killing a handler would be worked in protection or bite work. Having a good stable temperment is what any good handler looks for in a dog that will be doing that type of work. I agree that if the dog is going to kill you that you need to be protecting yourself but why would someone work with a dog like that in the first place is beyond me!

Edit to add: How could they ever use a dog like that? A dog that is used for K-9 work needs to be solid, not an unstable, unsure, unconfident dog like what you are describing. A confident dog does not equal a handler aggressive dog.

 

[Renee750il]

Some of those dogs should not have been worked in Protection but whats done is done. These dogs Ed is reffering to are the ones who WILL KILL the handler. I look at it like this, its the dog or the handler and one must act before the other.

There's a certain amount of Darwinistic synchronicity in a dog that's so utterly and obviously temperamentally unsuited to be trained for bite work summarily dealing with the idiot who made the mistake in the first place . . .

 

[whatszmatter]

many uses for a dog like that. handler aggression doesn't equal unstable nerves or weak temperment. I personally don't like handler aggression and if stated right you probably shouldn't get any extreme cases like that. Some dogs come from places that couldn't handle a dog like that from the beginning and they've gotten out of control, only difference is when they're out of control they can do some real severe severe damage, it has nothing to do with weak or unstable nerves.

Extreme dogs are used for breeding, but must be paired with appropriate mates to get good offspring. Some dogs are used on tactical teams, once the handler aggression issues are dealt with. They aren't used as street dogs, some are estate dogs. Some dogs were simply the "big" dog so to speak and allowed to be that way for a long time and have only gotten stronger and more confident, no nerve problems, and those dogs can still make excellent patrol dogs. Its not a normal part of training, it isn't something that's routinely done.

That's why i kind of laugh to myself when I read about dogs not being pack animals, well when you haven't dealt with anything but a subordinate dog, you'd probably think that way. Dogs are pack animals and have pack hierarchy. They don't exhibit it much because they can read each others signals and fall into that rank and file. One steps out of line, they deal with it harshly. Same thing here, get a very dominant dog (extrememly rare) with no rules for a few years, then try do something that the leader would do, he'll put you right back into your place and it won't be pretty.

 

[dr2little]

when you guys get some crazy import or get a dog for evaluation from someone else, and it is going to kill you, literally and its already had many "wins" for few years against humans let me know how it goes. I'd be willing to bet you've never faced a dog with the intensity, drive or flaws that he has. and i'm twice as sure you've never trained a dog or produced dogs that are out on the street saving lives everyday. When you get there, then you tell me what you do, and how you got thru to the dog that was going kill you. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

I've met Ed on more than one occassion, he has changed his stance, and he is NOT an evil man. anyone else here have personal knowledge or just internet info??

I think that a few of you on here could take a cue from your apparent idol Ed and start EVOLVING as dog trainers. Some of you seem to want to defend him so badly but don't seem to realize that while you're doing so you're also admitting that even he has come to the realization that his "old" physical methods don't work, are unnecessary and are a thing of the past.....what's your real point??
There is no excuse for abusing an animal and as for your "when you get there tell me what you do", I'd love to lay my experience with bite/aggression work side by side with your's,.... what utter nonsence. It's these OUT THERE examples that make your the arguement so weak. Yes, in all my year's I have met a very few dogs who were what I would consider a 10 on a 1-10 scale of intensity. Did I resort to abuse? For what reason? What would it accomplish? Do you know anything about canine behavior? If you really believe that you can take a capable dog with that level of aggression and character and BULLY it out of him.... I'm surprise your still able to type. Doesn't happen, Doesn't work, and anyone who uses these methods hasn't a clue about behavior science. Why is it so hard to just admit that people abuse because A) they don't know any better B) they don't have the resources or compassion to try to do better C) They're bloody lazy, cruel and self important...drop the EGO!!

 

[Doberluv]

That's right...knowlege of canine behavior is screamingly lacking in these outlandish comments. I'm sorry. How you people can question people who have been training and working with all kinds of dogs for 20-40 years, I don't know. First of all, dominance isn't a trait. It's a relationship. It is what you make it. Drive does not equal handler aggression. Working dogs do not equal abuse. That's ridiculous. All kinds of trainers train working dogs without hanging them and abusing them. If someone can't handle a dog, any dog without abusing it to get it to do what they want, they're better off putting it out of it's misery and shooting it right then and there. You kids need to handle dogs for a few more years and get some more education before you make these kinds of statements.

 

[whatszmatter]

Edit to add: How could they ever use a dog like that? A dog that is used for K-9 work needs to be solid, not an unstable, unsure, unconfident dog like what you are describing. A confident dog does not equal a handler aggressive dog.

confident dog does equal handler aggression when its been unchecked and had no guidance and gets some early "wins" against his handler...way too much confidence. and again, it doesn't happen very often, rarely, most people that work protection sports never even come across a dog like this.

 

[whatszmatter]

That's right...knowlege of canine behavior is screamingly lacking in these outlandish comments. I'm sorry. How you people can question people who have been training and working with all kinds of dogs for 20-40 years, I don't know. First of all, dominance isn't a trait. It's a relationship. It is what you make it. Drive does not equal handler aggression. Working dogs do not equal abuse. That's ridiculous. All kinds of trainers train working dogs without hanging them and abusing them. If someone can't handle a dog, any dog without abusing it to get it to do what they want, they're better off putting it out of it's misery and shooting it right then and there. You kids need to handle dogs for a few more years and get some more education before you make these kinds of statements.

what dogs have you worked, what have you trained and what have you accomplished in 40 years of dog training?????

you pick and chose what you want to read, i don't think you've read one post objectively, and if you cared enough or even took the time to read, you'd see that Ed, nor anyone else is advocating hanging dogs as a training method, but again, you only read what you want to.

and 2little, i've posted quotes references and others from people you quote, people you follow and ever bit as respected as the peers you chose to follow, and now I make, what 2 comments about Ed Frawley, and i'm an ed lover and worshipper, get over yourself.

Speaking of arrogant and having ego's we have two huge one's right here with us.

 

[RD]

I'd euthanize a dog before I would suffocate it as an attempt at "training". If the dog is THAT uncontrollable, it has no place in the world as a working dog and I believe the fault lies with the breeders who intentionally breed "live wire" dogs that will turn on their handler. I wonder if Ed has tried any kinder methods for earning the respect of his dogs...

Dobiegurl and whatzmatter, you would be surprised what a bit of leadership can do for a dominant dog. I'm currently working with a dog at the humane society who has been there for over 3 months. The last volunteer that was working with him gave up on him because he pinned her to the corner of his run and wouldn't let her move. He's a large wolf (we say husky instead)/shepherd mix. He is a hyperactive, dominant-aggressive male whose introduction to me was to knock me flat on my back and snap at my face when I tried to pet his head. I didn't hang the dog, I didn't even USE a collar and leash on him. I simply withheld attention and food until he was (to quote Cesar ) in a "calm submissive" state of mind. I didn't let him out of his run until he was calm. I didn't let him back INTO his run until he was calm. I didn't allow bad behavior, but I didn't force him to stop immediately. I gave him a choice and rewarded him when he made the right one.
He still isn't easily controlled by other people, but I can waltz right into his run and slip a leash over his head and he'll walk politely with me. He pins his ears back and rolls over voluntarily when approaches me. Calm and submissive! I am quite obviously his leader yet I've never laid a hand on this dog in correction.

Leadership works so much better than force. If you can convince a dog that the best thing for it is to follow your lead, ANY dog - I don't care how dominant - will respond and submit to you.

 

[Renee750il]

And that last post, RD, illustrates perfectly why you should have your Fila Good work . . . CreatureTeacher would be proud of you - I know I am!

 

[Dobiegurl]

Speaking of arrogant and having ego's we have two huge one's right here with us.

I know thats right. These people crack me up. Just because me or you don't agree with them, we're automatically WRONG. I honestly don't think they have worked with the dogs I am referring to.

I have seen many agressive dogs, no big deal really. Most are fear biters, anyways. That is not the kind of dog I am referring to.

But no matter what we say, whatzmatter, we will always be wrong because of all the "noble" trainers on this forum frown upon us. Ed is known by MANY people in the states and over seas. When you hold seminars across the world, then come here and say how bad of a trainer Ed is.

 

[dr2little]

Speaking of arrogant and having ego's we have two huge one's right here with us.

You mistake knowledge, experience, passion and compassion for EGO. I'm not the one even remotely condoning using EGO to train dogs. And as for how many dogs, they number in the many thousands and not one was ever on the recieving end of EGO driven methods at my hands. Yes, I am adamant about training void of physical punishment not because I'm a bleeding heart and certainly not because it's just what I believe in. The methods I use or based in science not emotion and arrogance. I will not sit by silently and read post after post by very young inexperienced dog owners (not referring to you, don't know your age or experience) giving fuel to abuse or trying to somehow justify it with extreme ridiculous cases. It's just not right and I know, if you are a true advocat for the dogs you work for, you realize that anyone who has been doing this for as long as I have feels a responsibility to speak up. Only the very immature would see this as EGO!! Just remember (whatszmatter) you are the one who threw the question out there as if you and you alone had ever seen these rare cases or knew how to deal with them. These creatures, who have already experienced enough abuse by humans to get to where they are deserve better than what's been suggested by the ignorant

 

[Dobiegurl]

Leadership works so much better than force. If you can convince a dog that the best thing for it is to follow your lead, ANY dog - I don't care how dominant - will respond and submit to you.

Its funny that you say that. The whole purpose to hang your dog is to show that you are in control of his life, not the other way around.

Not any dog will respond to "taking leadership". Some (on a very rare occasion) need to be SHOWN leadership.

I have dealt with many agressive dogs and have been biten MANY times. But the difference between most agressive dogs and the dogs I am reffering to is that most agressive dogs LACK self confidence or are fearful. These dogs I am talking about have TONS of self confidence, are powerful and have done bite work and protection training. These are NOT your average agressive dog. They, unlike most dogs, are TOO self confident, which needs to be toned down.

 

[tessa_s212]

I have dealt with many agressive dogs and have been biten MANY times.

You act like the fact that you have been bitten many times proves that you are a good trainer. You act like that should impress us. It doesn't.