Does the popularity or rarity of your breed bother you?

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#41
MomOf7 said:
I agree.
You have the bybs and mills messin things up. Then you have the split in the breed making extremes. Its quite frightening and honestly I havent ran into one field breeder like myself who is concerned at all that the field labs are getting smaller and smaller and really look nothing like a lab..Look at my Molly in the pic below. To me she doesnt have a lab head, face, or features but she is a retrieving fool and very agile and fast.
I am worried as well.:confused:
Yup :( I hate it. I hate seeing so many 150+ pound, aggressive labs, with curly tails and funky ears. I don't know my girls breeding, but in my opinion she is an awesome representation of the breed...loyal, not a mean bone in her body, sweet, gorgeous, and she does have hunting instinct. There is absolutely no way to keep her away from a scent, either.
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#42
yuckaduck said:
That could not have been said better by anyone.

GSD's were never meant to be paraded around a ring.
So it does not matter at all what the dog looks like? No need for a breed standard, or breed competitions? Ever?
They were meant to work...true work!

Not sport, ie schutzhund...I mean true work.
What is "true work" if it's not SchH?

I like the European GSD's..much less corruption in the lines, and they tend to stay truer to the breed.
Could you expand on this a little bit for our collective education?

What do you mean by corruption in the lines?, and truer to the breed?

TIA.....
 
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#43
Absolutely; I would never adopt a Lab because everyone has one; you've to to spread the love. I feel the same way about cars and everything else for that matter
 
W

whatszmatter

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#44
RedyreRottweilers said:
So it does not matter at all what the dog looks like? No need for a breed standard, or breed competitions? Ever?


What is "true work" if it's not SchH?



Could you expand on this a little bit for our collective education?

What do you mean by corruption in the lines?, and truer to the breed?

TIA.....
I think conformation and standards are impt or you'll never protect a "breed" from becoming unrecognizable as a distinct breed. My point was in saying that was hundreds turned out for the conformation part and besides the competitors less than 20 turned out for the actual trials, protection, Ob, and tracking. Max said it himself that working attributes are to be bred before conformation. Me thinks lots of people have it backwards today.

I know I didn't say that Sch wasn't true work, but maybe I can address it. I love Sch myself, and you can most certainly find a dog doing true work thru Sch. Some people are turned off because they use a sleeve and the dogs are trained for high points meaning they have calm full grips is more impt than being civil (bite for real). YOu can see what dogs are for real and which ones are just "prey" dogs. A common debate among working people, but I say a bite from a defensive dog or a prey bite will hurt. Some people abuse the sport to title unfit dogs, but Sch as a whole when used properly is a great test for dogs temperment and working ability.

Some that act like they know, think a crazy barking dog with teeth barred and pulling on the end of leash is what a "true" dog should be. I beg to differ confidence doesn't show craziness at all times, and there's a lot more to a GSD than just biting, tracking using a full deep nose (with obedience as well) and willingness to work for the handler are also traits that are tested for with Sch.
 

ihartgonzo

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#45
RedyreRottweilers said:
Being 10 lbs overweight and untrained really has nothing to do with his pedigree and everything to do with his upbringing and lack of training.

Barking is an extremely common behavior among many herding breeds.

Dogs are not born understanding commands.

I submit that if you want a working herding dog, you do as you are doing, and look for it among those who compete with their dogs.

I also submit that you can do this without maligning every person who chooses to compete in the Breed ring with their dogs.

Unless you have seen every "show" Aussie tested on stock, you can not state that most of them are "65 lbs of fluff, and yappy & brainless".

Yes, but breeding does create a predisposition. This dog has absolutely no drive, he would much rather lay around and has to be *forced* to run, hence him being very out of shape. I have noticed one of the biggest differences between show Aussies & working Aussies is their vocalness, it's not favorable for a working dog to be very barky!

I'm no longer looking for an Aussie. Because I found it so difficult to find a working breeder who had available "pet/performance" pups within a year, I instead found a Cardigan Welsh Corgi breeder who worked their dogs and shows them (which doesn't even matter now... because our Cardi puppy was reserved for the stud owner, and we ended up with Fozzie from rescue). I agree that proving a breeding dog in conformation is VERY important, but I do not place it as more important than a dog with superb working ability... only dogs that excel at both should be bred, not one or the other.
 

Gempress

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#46
Breed standards are necessary to define the breed. Without clear standards, there would be no breeds.

IMO, the only breeders who sneer at health certification, conformation wins, Schutzhund, field trials or working titles are BYBs with dogs that don't measure up to any of those standards. Hence the "oh, those mean nothing" attitude. Sorry, had to rant. I've just seen so many websites of "breeders" who claim that their dogs are awesome and don't need meaningless titles or certifications to prove it. It's a pet peeve of mine.
 
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Red_ACD_for_me

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#48
I live in Massachusetts and in the city where you don't see alot of ACD's around. I wanted one because I grew up with GSD's all my life and wanted to go a little smaller this time but still high energy. I have had my ACD for almost a year and walk around this pond and woods where lots of others frequent with there dogs. Since I have been walking my ACD over there I have seen and met two other ACD owners but they are blue ones and they die when they see my boy because he is so handsome and he is a red :D . Unfortunately, because of Cai's stature and bully look he has attracted some negative attention from thug type dudes who will approach me and ask what he is. I tell them he is mixed and they usually think he is mixed with pit. Let them think what they want, I don't want my breed ruined because of irresponsible people. I'm glad that he is different and not everyone has one, that is part of the reason I wanted him. :)
 
Y

yuckaduck

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#49
JennSLK said:
Sch is work.

It's a true test for working ability and drive.

Is there a difference between a sport dog & service, protection or guard dogs? by John MacDonald and Luc Cendak
The intention of this article is to briefly describe the differences between a working sport dog (Schutzhund) and a service, protection or guard dog.

Firstly, let's look at the basic purpose of the service dog, protection dog and the guard dog.

The service dog is trained to track down persons, usually criminals, to locate illegal substances i.e. drugs, control crowd riots and stop armed offenders as well as protect the handler from attack. The protection dog is trained to protect its handler from attack and usually to guard property. The guard dog is trained to guard commercial or domestic properties.

The second area we will look at is who trains these dogs and to what standard.

Service dogs are usually trained to a standard of the law enforcement agencies within which they will be operational. This standard varies considerably from service to service, country to country.

Protection and guard dogs are trained and sold as a commercial commodity and the bottom line is to turn over as fast a profit as possible. The standards to which these dogs are trained are self imposed and unregulated.

The sport dog (Schutzhund) is trained and used for a competitive sport which involves tracking, obedience and character assessment (Schutzdienst).
The standards to which he is trained are uniform and world-wide. One must be aware that the intention and purpose between these dogs is very different even though the outward picture may appear to be the same. The Schutzhund dog is a sport dog and is competing for points: the dog is assessed for the quality of the work and how close it aligns with the standard it's being judged upon. The Schutzhund dog is fixated upon a sleeve which it must grip and counter through particular phases of the competition routine. In the 'Hold and Bark' phase the dog is usually barking to gain access to gripping the sleeve.
Through the whole Schutzdienst phase the dog's nerves, temperament, character, courage and working ability are being assessed. The intention of the sport is to identify animals suitable for breeding. Many Schutzhund dogs will not perform the routines if not exposed to all the associated stimuli which are used in training for the competition.
Even though the dogs are working in a sporting environment the mental and physical pressure placed on them is sufficient to highlight deficiencies within the temperament, character and nerves of the animal.

The service dog on the other hand does not have the associated article or stimuli to place the dog into drive. The dog must be able to work without the help of these secondary stimuli.
When trained properly there appears to be very little difference between the two purposes of training principles but when trained properly and with control as a main criteria, channelling between drives and into equipment is the difference.
The Schutzhund dog's purpose or aim is to bark intensely to gain possession of the sleeve, to either wrestle in a tug of war or to carry the prize/prey away from the helper.

Other facts like the grip, hit backs or rebites are skills the dog is taught to gain confidence or correct itself during a competition.

The service dog is not allowed to eventually channel into the sleeve but rather to remain focused on the decoy remaining more in the defence drive with the aim being to bite or fight only the man and not the equipment. This is usually achieved by the use of under garment protection and body bite suits.

The personal protection or guard dog is usually trained in a high defence drive based on self preservation, countering the stimulus with aggressive barking and hectic biting. These dogs are never allowed to become equipment focused and are usually trained with full body bite suits and under garment protection. In most cases, control is not critically important as the dog is mainly worked on lead as this helps in giving the dog support and in most 'real life' biting situations the dog would be on the lead where the handler could physically control the dog.

Dogs that are used to guard property are either high in instinctive territorial defence behaviour or are trained to be territorially defensive, i.e. a compound or enclosure to entice aggressive responses, the agitation desists and the proximity of the decoy is increased to reinforce the aggressive behavioural response which is usually barking and baring teeth. In both the guard and personal protection dog, social contact with persons other than the handler is usually not permitted.

The Schutzhund dog has to undergo hundreds of hours of training and usually lives in a family situation and travels in public places. The Rules of the Sport are fairly clear in that the dog must undergo a test of impartiality prior to the commencement of a Trial. This usually involves the Judge handling the dog, eg. examination of tattoo in the ear whether it is present or not, examination of the dog by touching, patting or stroking, and the dog being placed in a very tightly closed crowd of people.

Dogs that are trained to have human species conflict, i.e. a mistrusting dislike for humans via defensive self preservation stimulus placed upon them by humans in training, will fail a test such as the test of impartiality used in the Schutzhund Trial and which has been deliberately designed to identify dogs that are trained in civil protection work which Schutzhund Clubs are prohibited from conducting.

The adversaries to Schutzhund sport know little of the training of either dogs for the sport or dogs for service work, personal protection or guard dogs. They most certainly can with great clarity and information give a clear explanation of their views, or can they? But further, we can practically demonstrate that dogs trained for the sport are safe. We wonder if they can not only in written thesis but also by practical example give their viewpoint. We doubt not.




Schutzhund is a sport...originally intended to verify a dogs working ability and worthiness to breed. Now it is so different from real working dogs that anyone in the police services who is seriously interested has advised me that schutzhund is a total waste of time and training. Now you may think that is nuts...each to their own. However those who will be purchasing my puppies will be my guide not complete strangers who grew up believing titles were the only thing that mattered in the breed. I use to believe that too. I learned!

Now this does not mean just any old dog can be bred and claimed a working dog either. Mine are trained and assessed by independent trainers from both the OPP and RCMP to ensure that they posses the abilities to do what we are breeding for. Notice we do not claim Ebony's pups will be police service dogs....that is because she is not able to pass the tests. She is searcha dn rescue type...not nearly aggressive enough to do that more intense work. I know usually everyone jumps when I mention breeding..that is fine. I can tell you all right now I have done the research and nothing said here is going to change my mind. So you might be better off educating someone who does not know what they are doing; that ain't me.
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#50
I don't want to read an article you have unearthed.

I'd like to read your own words as to what you meant in your post.

If you please.

:D
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#51
Originally posted by YUCKADUCK:

I can tell you all right now I have done the research and nothing said here is going to change my mind. So you might be better off educating someone who does not know what they are doing; that ain't me.
Welp, I guess that there pretty much says it all.

The rules that apply to everyone else regarding breeding don't apply to you or your dogs.

Alllllll righty then.

;)
 

RD

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#52
I am saddened at what has happened to the Border Collie. The breed has taken a huge popularity surge. People want them as pets and show dogs. Well, the Border Collie is generally not well suited as a pet or show dog. As a result, you find low-drive dogs, dominant-aggressive dogs, and those whose instinct to herd has been neglected for so long that the dogs are absolutely neurotic and almost dangerous. Granted, some of this has to do with the owner and the way the dog was raised, but I also feel that a lot of it has to do with breeding.
Some show breeders have bred in dominant temperaments and extreme independence to get flashier dogs for the show ring. Some dogs have such heavy bone and massive coats that they have a hard time running at full speed. They almost lumber around the ring. I can't picture these dogs doing a 1/2 mile outrun. Heck, I can't even picture some of them running an agility course!
These dogs are bred for a certain look, as well. Rough coated, usually black and white. The standard doesn't call for this, but that is where the show ring fads have taken the breed. Personally, I don't see a need for this. The breed did wonderfully a hundred years before a conformation standard was implimented... In fact, the most problems it has encountered have been after people began breeding for nothing but looks.
Then, there are the people who try to breed the dogs that will win at agility. These dogs are, in a word, insane. Not in a good way. I have encountered several Border Collies bred solely for agility while observing at trials, and when they weren't yapping incessantly, they were lunging at the end of their leash or twitching/shaking like maniacs. While I could run a dog like that in agility, I could never live with that.
And, as with every breed, we have our fair share of BYBs. Unfortunately, some of these BYBs are glorified for breeding unproven "working" dogs.

Yeah.. The breed is pretty messed up. I love the breed like no other, though, and will do all I can to preserve and improve the Border Collie as a healthy, sound working dog.
 

Julie

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#53
Yuckaduck,

I am sorry to say....I am disappointed in your "revolving door" dogs. I mean first it's a dog from a pet shop with "working lines" but never got out of a cage. I mean how many pups from a petshop are a direct decendent of a true working dog? Then we go to a "resue" you are running........ Then a so called burned puppy with vague and hostile responses, then there is Hope...supposedly a very friendly dog and great with kids - and many pictures of her looking happy with your kids.....then all of the "sudden" she doesn't have the temperment for your breeding program. Then comes the labs....of course they have perfect pedigrees.........then the labs are gone.........in the meantime you have many different GSD's I think the only dog that stayed with you is Yukon. He was supposed to have had a bad temperment and neutered......I called you on it..........well that was My husband using my name and passcode to lie so everyone would get off my back.

Well Yuck.......I am not the typical "get the titles" before you breed..........but you are nothing more than a byb with a dream of being "notorious". And please don't deny ANYTHING I have said........as I have saved all email correspondence and pictures all the way from the shelter you posted, all the dog pictures you have ever posted and all the pictures that are questionably yours.

And shame on you for degrading shutzhund.....

What dogs have you trained? What departments have bought a "ready" dog from you? Did they qualify for patrol work? narcotic detection? tracking? officer protection? apprehension?

What certifications do your breeding GSD's hold? Not talking titles.......but certifications for work alongside a police officer?

I could go on forever..........I am so hurt that you are doing this.
I mean not even a year ago you were in an uproar because Yukon kept peeing in his crate. How can you now train dogs for police work?

I didn't want anything to become of this, but you keep posting here and putting down other dogs.........Why? Ie...shutz is not real work...etc.

I just don't know what else to say.................but I assume my decision to post this will have effect on whether I will be able to post here anymore. That is how strong I feel about your practices.
 

Gempress

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#54
Yuckaduck.....

You told us flat-out that Yukon was neutered because of a "crappy" temperament. And you were having problems with aggression towards your children and things like submissive peeing in his crate. He's not even two years old, so there's no way in heck that he's gotten any kind of health certifications. Not what I would consider a great foundation stud.

You say that your dogs have all been evaluated by trainers as good working dogs. At first I didn't believe it. But then again, since Yukon miraculously fixed his temperament problems and regrew his severed kiwis, I can't blame the trainers for being impressed.

You weren't able to teach your dogs how to walk on a leash. You talked in length about the "no pull" harness and how you use it to walk all of your dogs. Yet you know all about the working police dog and how to evaluate/train them. Or for that matter, you know how to pick trainers to evaluate them. And you're saying that you can offer dogs trained "basic obedience right up to advanced K-9 work".

While your GSDs are out of working lines (or so your website says), there is not a title or certification among them. You do not post the names of the kennels all your dogs have come from, nor their pedigrees. Heck, not even the names of their working sires/dams and what organizations they work for. So basically, no proof that these are dogs from "working lines". You have yet to produce a single titled or working dog. It's a big step to claim you produce "quality working shepherd."

And for that matter, working lines doesn't mean working dogs. Just like a champion show dog does not always have champion puppies, a working dog does not always have working puppies. If that were the case, there would never be pet quality puppies sold with spay/neuter contracts.

I tried very hard not to say anything in previous posts. But right now it just upsets me to think of all the people who are reading your posts and think they are getting the opinion of an reputable breeder. I just can't stay quiet when I know better.

I'm going to give myself a time-out now.
 
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Julie

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#55
These dogs are never allowed to become equipment focused and are usually trained with full body bite suits and under garment protection. In most cases, control is not critically important as the dog is mainly worked on lead as this helps in giving the dog support and in most 'real life' biting situations the dog would be on the lead where the handler could physically control the dog.
Control is absolutely critically important!!! You must have complete control of your "working" dog whether on leash or off. In the real life biting situations I am familar with.......they were all off lead. You are watching too much "cops" on tv. They are trained off lead as well as some on and certified off lead. The handler should NEVER have to physically control the dog. The only thing that should be needed to control the dog is voice and/or hand commands.

I hope you know full body bite suits also can and will cause equipment focusing. Try this... bite sleeve under your shirt, but another bite sleeve held on your arm. Dog is sent.....throw extra bite sleeve down and then see which the dog goes for. Rocket goes for the person every time.
 

Zoom

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#56
I will ask that the topic go back to general breed popularity and to shift the focus off of Yucka and her dogs/methods/philosophies. I understand there are concerns and tempers on both sides running rampant; either make a new thread or start some PM's.
 

jn527

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#57
I dislike the fact that a breeds popularity causes an increase in puppy mills, I guess because both of my BFs are humongous (18 lbs) and not fat. Just large, big boned, boys. They are great dogs, but ugh. I love the sweet temper of the breed, easy going and fun, but because of it they are always "christmas or birthday presents".
 

Gempress

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#58
I know what you mean, jn. I don't like looking at the classifieds around Christmastime. It's packed full of ads for "Christmas puppies".
 

jn527

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#59
And then 6 months to a year later they are given up because they take too much time, too much energy and are hard to housebreak. BF are notoriously hard to house break, have an extended puppyhood, and are high energy. But they are "great" with kids, not aggressive so people think, great just get it. Forgetting these dogs need a lot of coat maintanence, exercise.
 

Brattina88

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#60
the breeds that get matted easily break my heart when I see them. Puppies are bought for presents, and people really don't relize how much coat care some breeds really need. I'll never forget the cocker I saw at the pound, the family got rid of it because they didn't know what to do about its coat. He was so matted it was painful to be touched, so he became aggressive. Thankfully the shelter took him in, he had to go under to be shaved completely down, which I heard took nearly 2hrs! :eek:

I'll never understand how its so easy for them to overlook the maintenence, excersize, and training dogs need!
 

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