Dobe people

joce

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#1
I joined this fourum and I loved it http://www.dobermantalk.com/
But some nutt started emailing people who think whites are acceptable,breedable,etc and invited them all there and now I look like na idiot cuz I'm the only one saying they are albino. Could someone back me up on this that there is no good white. http://www.dobermantalk.com/showthread.php?t=89

The lady that sent them there is this lady/kid
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=11341&messageid=1123701725
Who is missing a few obviously
I am more than a little mad that they are allowed to ruin a good board but I'm not a mod so other than keep posting they are full of it threr is not much I cna do.

But anyway-I think we could use some real dobe people over there! Please!
 

frznbuns

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#2
I can see what you mean but i think each to their own! Everyone should have a right to voice their opinion! I am a member of both boards. I am glad that there is a formum for just doberman owners and lovers. I am not real fond of white dobermans and I am not real fond of the deliberate breeding of these dogs but on the other hand I am glad that there a people out there that will adopt them and give them lifelong homes. I am more opposed at all the new designer dogs that are out. Dobedoobles, goldendoodles, ect... That is thing I think needs to be stopped!!
Dobermans Rule!!
 

joce

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#3
I'm way more against the white dobes. Its sick. The thing is this girl isn't voiceing her opinions but trying to convince people she is righ,which she isn't. On the one forum she said she was in jail and now in medical school and has been breeding since she was seven or something. Some people just really irritate me. I would ignore it but she seems to hav eothers thinking she is right :confused:
 
M

Manchesters

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#4
No

joce said:
I joined this fourum and I loved it http://www.dobermantalk.com/
But some nutt started emailing people who think whites are acceptable,breedable,etc and invited them all there and now I look like na idiot cuz I'm the only one saying they are albino. Could someone back me up on this that there is no good white. http://www.dobermantalk.com/showthread.php?t=89

The lady that sent them there is this lady/kid
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=11341&messageid=1123701725
Who is missing a few obviously
I am more than a little mad that they are allowed to ruin a good board but I'm not a mod so other than keep posting they are full of it threr is not much I cna do.

But anyway-I think we could use some real dobe people over there! Please!
The white Dobe is NOT an albino. It is the color white, like white Shepherds. Or like white Collies. True albinos have the red eyes.
 
M

Manchesters

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#6
Any Picture

Vega said:
Who has a picture of a non-albino white Doberman?
Of a white Dobe is a non-albino white Dobe, because there are NO albino Dobes, rofl.
 

Old Dog

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#7
White dobes are not albino it is a recessive color. They are no different than fawns or isabella's,blues ect. It is not an acceptable color just like in shepherds. This does not mean they are not reg. Just means it is a disqualifying color for show. Most serious breeders would not want this recessive in there line. I am sure along with the fawns they have skin and coat problems. White boxers are they same way. Its just coat color. They usually advertise them as 'RARE' and they are in the sense no serious breeders want that gene in there line but more over it is nothing but a selling point for a high price to those people that want something no one else has. Many times recessive genes like that have other things attached to them so to speak like inherent skin,eye problems,deafness and a host of other things.

I remember 25 years ago when fawn dobes were "rare" so to speak and blues for that matter but along with those colors you had tons of skin problems. So the fawns never became real popular plus the color is hard to breed for consistently and like with many colors it is not good to breed them to each other because it just further weakens the genes for problems so to speak.
 

Melissa_W

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#9
Here's some info I found on the net.

WHITE DOBERMANS

In 1980's the white Doberman made it's appearance and it has been found that the white gene is a separate gene, and is located at a different genetic site (locus) than the color (B) and dilution (D) that is the basis of the four allowed colors for the Doberman. The white gene does not interfere with these four known colors of the Doberman and does not need to be included in the color chart.

The white Doberman is considered an incomplete or partial albino. The dogs have blue eyes and are cream colored with light tan markings. The dogs suffer from photo phobia (photosensitive). This means the dogs cannot tolerate light, often closing their eyes and bumping into objects when put in unfamiliar surroundings. Their temperaments range from being very shy to fear biters. These are not the attributes a responsible breeder or one that is familiar with the criteria of a working dog wish to produce or perpetuate.

WARNING: The white Doberman is NOT considered to be of great value (charging more/more expensive) by Responsible Breeders. Responsible Breeders DO NOT include the white Doberman in their breeding stock/programs.

The WHITE color is a DISQUALIFICATION and these dogs CANNOT COMPETE in the conformation ring.


WHAT IS A "WHITE" DOBERMAN?

A "White" or Albinistic Doberman has a genetic fault that masks the pigment of our four
normal colors. It is a recessive gene which, when expressed, greatly reduces the number of pigment granules (melanocytes) in hair, skin and eyes. This gives the appearance of a light cream base coat with dead white markings. They always have translucent blue eyes with pink noses, eye rims and foot pads.
They are TYROSINASE POSITIVE ALBINOS. Geneticists and examining veterinarians have determined that these dogs suffer from a deleterious form of partial albinism. The greatly reduced pigment in skin and eyes causes marked photosensitivity (squint or shut eyes in sunlight) and increased risk of solar skin damage including cancer.
PHOTOSENSITIVITY IS A HANDICAP FOR A WORKING BREED. The AKC is registering dogs displaying a trait never previously described in our breed's history as pure bred. Since the recognition of Dobermans as a distinct breed, our Standard has always sought to eliminate even a small spot of white on the chest. The original purpose of our breed was that of a working sentry dog to accompany their masters on their rounds at night. White is readily seen, thereby destroying the element of surprise and impairing the dog's ability to do its' work. The DPCA will not give up this important part of our breed's heritage. We cannot allow the intrusion of a trait that is so adverse to the Standard of our breed in both appearance and functionality.

Allowing the albinistic trait to spread is a serious threat to the genetic integrity of the entire Doberman breed. The DPCA has an obligation to educate its members, breeders and Doberman fanciers in general to preserve and protect the Breed for the future. The DPCA must prevent the breeders of "white" Dobermans from further contaminating our gene pool. Do not let the promoters of "white" Dobermans fool you. Our breed is not improved by this practice. Ethical breeders do not intentionally breed for disqualifying faults. Breeders of disqualified Dobermans would like to lead the public to believe that their dogs are miraculously free of health problems. This is a fallacy. They have used the distant bloodlines of ethical breeders in a desperate attempt to improve the temperament, health, and conformation of their poor quality animals. The original animals were indiscriminately inbred to Shebah (the first AKC registered "white" Doberman, 1979) solely for her unique color. As much as breeders of "white" Dobermans would have these genetic aberrations appear harmless, the danger lies with the colored littermates. The prospect of having to cull 'whites' from our litters has been unheard of in the history of our breed. When the novelty has worn off, DPCA members will be left to clean up the yet unpredictable genetic problems forced on ethical breeders. If we are cautious now, "white" will not become a new feature of our breed.
 

DoberAdmin

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#10
Hi all I run the site www.dobermantalk.com - Regardless of size, shape, or color ALL Doberman owners are welcome at our site. Now I do have A personal opinion on the White Doberman and those that breed the White BUT that does not matter. My only concern is that Dobermans of any color have a great home and a chance in life. It is not the dog that is sitting in rescue waiting to die that is at fault here, they did not have a choice in life.

So as I said on my site, you are welcome to discuss anything Doberman related on our Forum BUT be prepared to back up your facts and statements because you will be called on it :). Oh and also be prepared to discuss things as an Adult - we do not allow members to bash others just because their opinion or beliefs may be different than ours.

Thanks
DA
 

joce

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#11
Manchesters,did you read any of those links? they don't need red eyes to be albino.They consider any white dog to be albino. It sucks because this was one study one of my genetics teachers went ove rnad I don't remember most of it. It isn't good,they houldn't be bred. I have looked into it many times. I thought it was such a neat color at first nad then I found out about that. Believie me I didn't want iot to be true.
 
M

Manchesters

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#12
A "White" or Albinistic Doberman has a genetic fault that masks the pigment of our four
normal colors. It is a recessive gene which, when expressed, greatly reduces the number of pigment granules (melanocytes) in hair, skin and eyes. This gives the appearance of a light cream base coat with dead white markings. They always have translucent blue eyes with pink noses, eye rims and foot pads.
They are TYROSINASE POSITIVE ALBINOS. Geneticists and examining veterinarians have determined that these dogs suffer from a deleterious form of partial albinism. The greatly reduced pigment in skin and eyes causes marked photosensitivity (squint or shut eyes in sunlight) and increased risk of solar skin damage including cancer.


Albinistic is NOT true albino. It means having partial characteristics of an albino. True albinos have red eyes. Note that it "greatly reduces" the pigment. Albino is the absence of any pigment. Robin Nutall has done extensive work and research on this issue. I don't know if she has published any of it on the internet, but I will check.

I personally have no thoughts on this issue, since human nature being what it is, people are going to do whatever they can to make big bucks, regardless of who or what they have to exploit.

Heck, kids........look at the good old Kimbertal and Hoytt Dobermans! Their damage was far more reaching than the white Dobe issue!!
 

bubbatd

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#13
I think the point here is that there is no need to breed these or any other albinistic dogs ! My friend's son breeds white GS....yes, they are beautiful , but 1/2 of them have major problems. You breed for the betterment of the breed ... not for odd balls. My ex son in law asked me about breeding his Golden ( female ) which he bought before he met my daughter. She had very poor markings... pink around eyes, lips and nose....very poor breeding ! I don't think he liked what I said !! But, he had her spade . Thank God, I wouldn't want any grand-dogs running around from that slime bag !
 
W

Whitedobelover

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#14
the person that started that email was elizabeth medina... i have her **** email in allmy friggin email addresses and i have six and i have six emails... that is so messed up... i have no idea where she came from or anything but i had lots of ppl on yahoo ask em who she was and why they got emails too and they dont even own dogs... hmmm that is wierd

joce said:
I joined this fourum and I loved it http://www.dobermantalk.com/
But some nutt started emailing people who think whites are acceptable,breedable,etc and invited them all there and now I look like na idiot cuz I'm the only one saying they are albino. Could someone back me up on this that there is no good white. http://www.dobermantalk.com/showthread.php?t=89

The lady that sent them there is this lady/kid
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=11341&messageid=1123701725
Who is missing a few obviously
I am more than a little mad that they are allowed to ruin a good board but I'm not a mod so other than keep posting they are full of it threr is not much I cna do.

But anyway-I think we could use some real dobe people over there! Please!
 

Doberluv

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#15
The following is from a science student on another board. White Dobermans are albino. Period. They are not the same thing as an Isabella. (fawn) They have much, much higher incidence of health and temperament problems than other Dobes and should NOT be bred.


The DPCA also provides a nice chart of color inheritance in the doberman (found here: http://www.dpca.org/color.chart.5.html).

The basics of genetics:
There are various different forms of each gene in any animal's genome - the different forms of the gene are called alleles. Each animal (or person) has two copies of every gene they posses -- one from their mother and one from their father.

In the most simple case of Mendelian genetics, a gene will only have two different alleles present in the gene pool (things such as height which show a large variation, have many alleles) -- one dominant and one recessive. Dominant alleles are usually represented by capital letters and recessive alleles are usually represented by lower case letters. In the case of a copy of both the dominant and recessive allele being present in the animal (called heterozygous; homozygous is having two copies of the same allele), the recessive allele will usually be "silent" and only the dominant allele will be expressed in the animal's phenotype (how the animal looks).

In the doberman, there are two genes that interact to determine coat color -- B/b and D/d. When a dog is dominant for both of these genes (either homozygous dominant or heterozygous), he is black. When a dog is dominant for the B gene (either homozygous or heterozygous = BB or Bb) and recessive for the D gene (homozygous only = dd), he will be blue. When a dog is recessive for the B gene (bb) but dominant for the D gene (DD or Dd), he will be red. When a dog is recessive for BOTH genes (bbdd), he will be fawn.

Thus, when you determine all the possible combinations these alleles of these genes (see the DPCA chart, that is what they have done), you will see that there are only FOUR phenotypic possibilities.

As I explained above, when only the recessive alleles of one or both these genes is present, the color of the dog changes. Thus, having two recessive alleles for one of the genes (either B_dd or bbD_) would be a single dilution (red or blue) and having the two recessive alleles for both of the genes (bbdd) would be a double dilution.

The albino gene (C) is present in all dobermans determines whether or not color is expressed. From the patterns of inheritance observed from the breedings of the original albino bitch, it was determined that the condition of being albino was inherited in an autosomal recessive fashion. Thus, to be an albino, you must have two copies of the recessive allele (cc). Dogs that are not albino and do not carry the albino gene are homozygous dominant (CC). Dogs that are not albino but *carry* the gene, the z-factored dogs mentioned above are heterozygous (Cc). Thus, if two z-factor dogs are bred together (Cc x Cc), each parent can either donate a dominant or a recessive allele to the offspring. Thus, 3/4 of the dogs from this breeding would be express the color coded for by their B and D genes (25% would be genotypically CC and 50% would be genotypically Cc) and 1/4 of the dogs would be albino (25% would be cc).

In other words, if there is even one dominant copy of the albino gene, the dog will express color. If there are no dominant copies (homozygous recessive = cc), the dog will not express color.

Now, the statement that the albino gene is not related to the dilution genes from the DPCA should make more sense. The B and D genes can code for any of of the four colors -- if there is a dominant copy of C present, then the color coded for by the B and D genes will be expressed. If there is no dominant copy of c present, no pigment will be expressed, thus, it does not matter which alleles the dog contains for the B and D genes because no color is being expressed.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have gotten through the basics, I will examine the claim made in this thread that there is a genetic difference between "white" dobermans and "albino" dobermans.

The claim was that "white" is not albino, but a dilution of fawn. This would mean the dog would still express pigment (be dominant for the albino gene), but there is somehow a third gene that determines coat color that is present in the recessive form.

Now, I'll be the first to admit here that I'm by far not a genetics expert. I am an undergraduate biology major with little experience in dog genetics... but, this just doesn't make sense to me.

Based on basic Mendelian principles, if there was three genes that determined coat color, there would not just be five possible colors (black, blue, red, fawn, and white)... there should be... well, a lot more! With two genes that code for color, there are 9 different genotypic possible combinations and 4 different phenotypic possibilities... I mean, having a third gene that would have and influence on ONE form of the B and D genes (fawn, bbdd)... would be pretty unlikely... it would have to have an impact of all 9 possible combinations of the B and D genes... it could combine with the B and D genes when it was either dominant or recessive. That alone would give you 18 different genotypic possibilities... And if it is able to influence color, you would then have at least 8 different possible coat colors for the doberman... Does this sound logical to ANYONE?

If there has somehow been an awesome discovery of some new gene that determines color, it's a well kept secret! I've searched high and low and can't find any evidence that any such discovery has been made...

So, being a student of science, I have made my conclusions based on what I know of genetics, what I have been able to find in reputable sources (peer reviewed journals, etc) online, and on Ockham's Razor. Ockham's razor states that the simplest explanation is the best explanation. Thus, isn't it much more likely that all white dobermans are albinos based on known facts about the dog's genome and patterns of inheritance that have been studied since the 1860s? Isn't the possibility of some mysterious third gene that breaks the laws of Mendelian genetics (and by some crazy conspiracy of the country's top universities is being kept a secret) far more complicated and unlikely?

Everyone is free to make up their own mind... If you choose to believe the latter, it is your choice, but until I am shown hard scientific evidence that contradicts what I have been taught is true, I will not be convinced.
 
W

Whitedobelover

Guest
#16
for future refrence DPCA doesnt use scientific anything... they use word of mouth and that is all....

Doberluv said:
The following is from a science student on another board. White Dobermans are albino. Period. They are not the same thing as an Isabella. (fawn) They have much, much higher incidence of health and temperament problems than other Dobes and should NOT be bred.


The DPCA also provides a nice chart of color inheritance in the doberman (found here: http://www.dpca.org/color.chart.5.html).

The basics of genetics:
There are various different forms of each gene in any animal's genome - the different forms of the gene are called alleles. Each animal (or person) has two copies of every gene they posses -- one from their mother and one from their father.

In the most simple case of Mendelian genetics, a gene will only have two different alleles present in the gene pool (things such as height which show a large variation, have many alleles) -- one dominant and one recessive. Dominant alleles are usually represented by capital letters and recessive alleles are usually represented by lower case letters. In the case of a copy of both the dominant and recessive allele being present in the animal (called heterozygous; homozygous is having two copies of the same allele), the recessive allele will usually be "silent" and only the dominant allele will be expressed in the animal's phenotype (how the animal looks).

In the doberman, there are two genes that interact to determine coat color -- B/b and D/d. When a dog is dominant for both of these genes (either homozygous dominant or heterozygous), he is black. When a dog is dominant for the B gene (either homozygous or heterozygous = BB or Bb) and recessive for the D gene (homozygous only = dd), he will be blue. When a dog is recessive for the B gene (bb) but dominant for the D gene (DD or Dd), he will be red. When a dog is recessive for BOTH genes (bbdd), he will be fawn.

Thus, when you determine all the possible combinations these alleles of these genes (see the DPCA chart, that is what they have done), you will see that there are only FOUR phenotypic possibilities.

As I explained above, when only the recessive alleles of one or both these genes is present, the color of the dog changes. Thus, having two recessive alleles for one of the genes (either B_dd or bbD_) would be a single dilution (red or blue) and having the two recessive alleles for both of the genes (bbdd) would be a double dilution.

The albino gene (C) is present in all dobermans determines whether or not color is expressed. From the patterns of inheritance observed from the breedings of the original albino bitch, it was determined that the condition of being albino was inherited in an autosomal recessive fashion. Thus, to be an albino, you must have two copies of the recessive allele (cc). Dogs that are not albino and do not carry the albino gene are homozygous dominant (CC). Dogs that are not albino but *carry* the gene, the z-factored dogs mentioned above are heterozygous (Cc). Thus, if two z-factor dogs are bred together (Cc x Cc), each parent can either donate a dominant or a recessive allele to the offspring. Thus, 3/4 of the dogs from this breeding would be express the color coded for by their B and D genes (25% would be genotypically CC and 50% would be genotypically Cc) and 1/4 of the dogs would be albino (25% would be cc).

In other words, if there is even one dominant copy of the albino gene, the dog will express color. If there are no dominant copies (homozygous recessive = cc), the dog will not express color.

Now, the statement that the albino gene is not related to the dilution genes from the DPCA should make more sense. The B and D genes can code for any of of the four colors -- if there is a dominant copy of C present, then the color coded for by the B and D genes will be expressed. If there is no dominant copy of c present, no pigment will be expressed, thus, it does not matter which alleles the dog contains for the B and D genes because no color is being expressed.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that I have gotten through the basics, I will examine the claim made in this thread that there is a genetic difference between "white" dobermans and "albino" dobermans.

The claim was that "white" is not albino, but a dilution of fawn. This would mean the dog would still express pigment (be dominant for the albino gene), but there is somehow a third gene that determines coat color that is present in the recessive form.

Now, I'll be the first to admit here that I'm by far not a genetics expert. I am an undergraduate biology major with little experience in dog genetics... but, this just doesn't make sense to me.

Based on basic Mendelian principles, if there was three genes that determined coat color, there would not just be five possible colors (black, blue, red, fawn, and white)... there should be... well, a lot more! With two genes that code for color, there are 9 different genotypic possible combinations and 4 different phenotypic possibilities... I mean, having a third gene that would have and influence on ONE form of the B and D genes (fawn, bbdd)... would be pretty unlikely... it would have to have an impact of all 9 possible combinations of the B and D genes... it could combine with the B and D genes when it was either dominant or recessive. That alone would give you 18 different genotypic possibilities... And if it is able to influence color, you would then have at least 8 different possible coat colors for the doberman... Does this sound logical to ANYONE?

If there has somehow been an awesome discovery of some new gene that determines color, it's a well kept secret! I've searched high and low and can't find any evidence that any such discovery has been made...

So, being a student of science, I have made my conclusions based on what I know of genetics, what I have been able to find in reputable sources (peer reviewed journals, etc) online, and on Ockham's Razor. Ockham's razor states that the simplest explanation is the best explanation. Thus, isn't it much more likely that all white dobermans are albinos based on known facts about the dog's genome and patterns of inheritance that have been studied since the 1860s? Isn't the possibility of some mysterious third gene that breaks the laws of Mendelian genetics (and by some crazy conspiracy of the country's top universities is being kept a secret) far more complicated and unlikely?

Everyone is free to make up their own mind... If you choose to believe the latter, it is your choice, but until I am shown hard scientific evidence that contradicts what I have been taught is true, I will not be convinced.
 
W

Whitedobelover

Guest
#18
read it.... dober luv if you couldnt figure out what that says hun how did you figure out what the rest of it said.... it is just what i said... and that is that...
 

Melissa_W

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#19
Whitedobelover... it appears to me that only one sentence in the entire post by Doberluv was regarding something said by DPCA. It was referring the reader to a color chart. A science student, trying to explain Mendelian genetics, posted the rest. It's actually a really good post.
 
W

Whitedobelover

Guest
#20
Melissa_W said:
Whitedobelover... it appears to me that only one sentence in the entire post by Doberluv was regarding something said by DPCA. It was referring the reader to a color chart. A science student, trying to explain Mendelian genetics, posted the rest. It's actually a really good post.

melissa do you have a dobe... im guessingnot... i have explained with about ten different ACTUAL scientific websites to these ppl and i will not argue with someone who doesnt know the difference between scientific and word of mouth... that is all the DPCA is... that is why so many ppl are registering their dogs akc then going to UKC... Nadac... CKC... and other registries to do their showing and agility... it isnt because any other reason than DPCA is all hypothesis and no actual fact....

it is from the DPCA LOL melissa so that is why i said what i said LOL... this is so funny
 

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