Do you like dogs with docked tails?

[SizzleDog]

Intact dogs do wander in search of sex and too many owners of intact animals can't be bothered to worry about where they run off too.

Ronin was intact for the first 4.5 years of his life, and not once did he wander in search of a lady friend. Even when I had an intact bitch - in heat - in the house... he was fine. He was maybe a little more rambunctious than usual, but he wasn't busting down doors to get to her.

But I'd like to think I'm one of the responsible ones.

 

[Picklepaige]

On the subject of s/n, I think it depends on the area. Most Northern places have very little overpopulation and more of a "training" problem. From what I've seen, there are very little puppies in Northern shelters, which is a true sign of overpopulation. However, I live in Mississippi, and here is a small sample of what we have at our shelter: http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...&contact=&name=&shelterid=MS26&sort=&preview=

We take in an average of 45-50 puppies EVERY DAY during the summer months, with the majority of those being pts for lack of people interested in adopting.

So, yes, we push spay and neuter heavily here, because responsible owners are zero to none.

 

[Dekka]

I don't think anyone said people shouldn't spay and neuter in this thread. I think it was said that it was more convenient for people to s/n than be diligent in watching their dogs. Its a surgical procedure to make it easier for people to own them responsibly. It is painful and not without risk.. yet no one says people shouldn't do it. Docking is less painful and less risky and is for the convenience of people and people jump up and down about it... that is all.




(humping is often not sexual... it can be part of play, part of dominance behaviour.. it can have many reasons)

 

[Sweet72947]

I don't know how much the spay really hurt Daisy, she was ready to tear around as soon as we brought her home! Maybe she just has a high pain tolerance.

 

[dr2little]

I really fail to see how there can be a comparison drawn between spay/neuter and docking a tail. Apples and oranges in my mind. Also, I can't tell you that I've ever heard of a breeder trying to spay or neuter on their own without a Vet though I have seen far too many home dock jobs that I know were painful and look like they were done with with a butter knife.

There was a litter of banded pups in the clinic just before Christmas and the entire staff was fuming over the condition and smell of those poor pups. Very well known show breeder...

 

[Dekka]

I don't see how docking improperly makes the whole idea bad. People train badly too causing injury and permanent harm.. does that mean training is bad? And yes people have been known to try to band male dogs. Does that make neutering wrong?

To me its not apples and oranges. Both are done to make it easier for dogs to live with humans. Both are surgical procedures.

 

[dr2little]

I don't see how docking improperly makes the whole idea bad. People train badly too causing injury and permanent harm.. does that mean training is bad? And yes people have been known to try to band male dogs. Does that make neutering wrong?

To me its not apples and oranges. Both are done to make it easier for dogs to live with humans. Both are surgical procedures.

First, I never meant that I thought that no dog should be properly, safely and humanely docked. I just know that the numbers of intact animals euthanized every year is a direct result of what happens when irresponsible owners keep intact animals. Of course we all know the health benefits of spay/neuter as well.
I just don't see how something that is almost 100% for cosmetic purposes can be compared.

I have to add that I have seen many beautiful docked dogs, the point is not against docking (though my personal preference is natural and I own 2 docked dogs), but rather that the comparison, to me, is a big stretch.

I wish that I could have posted pictures of the OE Bulldog that I saw last night. Her entire body vibrated when she tried to wag her nub and gosh she was frighteningly adorable. The owners did however bring up the point that for them, reading her body language was much more difficult for them than it was reading their dane. The lack of a tail, especially that drastic a crop, can have other drawbacks, maybe not for people who are more adept at reading body language but often for the general public. I was at the session for bitch aggression that seemingly came out of no where.

I find that a Jack or Brussels type crop is much easier for lay people to read than that almost not there type of crop.

 

[Dekka]

See I see health benefits with not s/n or at least doing it late. I think all things have a trade off. AND as has been posted in this thread if your dogs are working (which is what i have been referring too) docking is not cosmetic. It serves very good and useful purpose saving the dog pain and problems while working.

S/N does stop irresponsible people's pets from getting knocked up. But they key to that sentence is not s/n but irresponsible.

 

[dr2little]

See I see health benefits with not s/n or at least doing it late. I think all things have a trade off. AND as has been posted in this thread if your dogs are working (which is what i have been referring too) docking is not cosmetic. It serves very good and useful purpose saving the dog pain and problems while working.

Again, that's why I said almost 100%. You know that docking for working purposes is a very small percentage of the docked pop.

S/N does stop irresponsible people's pets from getting knocked up. But they key to that sentence is not s/n but irresponsible.

In at least the last 20 years, I've known personally 2 people who lost their dog due to a spay or neuter. Both were brac breeds. Millions of dogs die as a direct result of having equipment they are not allowed to use AND irresponsible owners. That is why spay/neuter programs are so important. Putting responsibility totally on the part of the human population...well, we all know how many dogs have died for that kind of optomism.

Spay and neuter programs absolutely do drastically impact the the dog population and therefore the number of euthanasias....

 

[dr2little]

I had to add that the numbers that you're referring to that point to NOT spaying/neutering or doing it late, those change daily. There are at least as many studies showing the opposite with the exception of larger, heavier boned breeds..and even those are debatable when listening the the Vets involved in the studies.

 

[xpaeanx]

On the subject of s/n, I think it depends on the area. Most Northern places have very little overpopulation and more of a "training" problem. From what I've seen, there are very little puppies in Northern shelters, which is a true sign of overpopulation. However, I live in Mississippi, and here is a small sample of what we have at our shelter: http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...&contact=&name=&shelterid=MS26&sort=&preview=

We take in an average of 45-50 puppies EVERY DAY during the summer months, with the majority of those being pts for lack of people interested in adopting.

So, yes, we push spay and neuter heavily here, because responsible owners are zero to none.

I live in NY and I pretty NEVER see puppies in shelters. The only place is North Shore Animal League, but they import all their pups from the south. That being said, I would say somewhere around 70-80% of the dogs in shelters are intact before being adopted. The only places here to really find puppies for adoption is craigslist, but those are all "I just bought this puppy and I don't have time..." type things. So those are not accidents.

The dogs here are all training problems for the most part, so for new adopters, there are a few specific shelters I recommend bc they actually spend time training the dogs.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't think anyone said people shouldn't spay and neuter in this thread. I think it was said that it was more convenient for people to s/n than be diligent in watching their dogs. Its a surgical procedure to make it easier for people to own them responsibly. It is painful and not without risk.. yet no one says people shouldn't do it. Docking is less painful and less risky and is for the convenience of people and people jump up and down about it... that is all.




(humping is often not sexual... it can be part of play, part of dominance behaviour.. it can have many reasons)

Yes, but the consequences of NOT s/n and the consequences of NOT docking cannot be compared.

So comparing the two is like comparing surgery to remove cancer and a breast enlargement.

It's a mute point.

One serves a purpose, the other is aesthetic.

Yes, both are surgery and carry a risk. But s/n is a responsible action, and docking is a personal choice.

I have my dog spayed, and I can tell you I am a responsible owner. It doesn't make me lazy.

I didn't get her spayed till she was 2, and my reasons were i didn't want her coming into season any more because it was unfair for her to be kept confined due to "mess" - it's not my house for starters. But MORE important to me, I didn't want to risk pyometra or cancer and I certainly NEVER wanted puppies. Ever. I eliminated that risk entirely. I take her camping with me, and it is not feasable to leave her, I WANT her there. I don't want ANY risk of an intact male getting near a bitch who may be in season. I don't know enough about the ins and outs of bitch cycles to be 100% sure she'd not be fertile as it were. So being RESPONSIBLE I removed the risk.

Now.... What are the risks of NOT docking? Don't bring up split tails on working dogs or "knocking things of tables" because that is BS. Compare that to sticking to a "breed standard" and it all seems a little pathetic I guess.

It's aesthetic.

I wish people would just have the BALLS to admit it.

 

[puppydog]

I can't say I don't like dogs that are docked. It is not the dogs fault. I would not like to ever dock my dogs.
Moot point anyway. You are not allowed to cut any healthy parts off your dog in SA. YAY!

 

[Doberluv]

I wish people would just have the BALLS to admit it.

I wish people would learn something about it before making statements like that. I posted one link way back in this thread describing why there is little pain associated with tail docking. Did anyone read that? Maybe you'll take a look at this link. Over to the left is a menu. Go to "damage evidence." Tell me what's cosmetic about that.

Dogs that come with the standard for docked tails generally have over the top exuberant personalities whether they're doing the job they were bred to do or not. They also generally have long, thin tails with little fat layer, little fur and thinner bone prone to injury. I know several people whose dogs should have been docked but weren't that have had recurring and persistent injury. Not docking in these circumstances is cruelty IMO and that of many people who have seen the results. That it isn't an extremely high frequency of injuries, the instances are significant enough. And that's WHY there's good reason that docking is a standard.

http://www.cdb.org/boxer.htm

 

[ACooper]

I wish people would learn something about it before making statements like that. I posted one link way back in this thread describing why there is little pain associated with tail docking. Did anyone read that? Maybe you'll take a look at this link. Over to the left is a menu. Go to "damage evidence." Tell me what's cosmetic about that.

Dogs that come with the standard for docked tails generally have over the top exuberant personalities whether they're doing the job they were bred to do or not. They also generally have long, thin tails with little fat layer, little fur and thinner bone prone to injury. I know several people whose dogs should have been docked but weren't that have had recurring and persistent injury. Not docking in these circumstances is cruelty IMO and that of many people who have seen the results. That it isn't an extremely high frequency of injuries, the instances are significant enough. And that's WHY there's good reason that docking is a standard.

http://www.cdb.org/boxer.htm

Good post Carrie!

I will openly say that EVEN if Orson's tail were "hardy" with no chance of injury........I would like to see it docked. I like the way it looks, period. Same with his ears being cropped. But then, if I could afford some plastic surgery for myself..........I'd do it! LOL

But there ARE reasons for it to be done. Preventative medicine is always the best, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[Dizzy]

I wish people would learn something about it before making statements like that. I posted one link way back in this thread describing why there is little pain associated with tail docking. Did anyone read that? Maybe you'll take a look at this link. Over to the left is a menu. Go to "damage evidence." Tell me what's cosmetic about that.

Dogs that come with the standard for docked tails generally have over the top exuberant personalities whether they're doing the job they were bred to do or not. They also generally have long, thin tails with little fat layer, little fur and thinner bone prone to injury. I know several people whose dogs should have been docked but weren't that have had recurring and persistent injury. Not docking in these circumstances is cruelty IMO and that of many people who have seen the results. That it isn't an extremely high frequency of injuries, the instances are significant enough. And that's WHY there's good reason that docking is a standard.

http://www.cdb.org/boxer.htm

I have SEEN all the evidence.

And like I said before, I have also seen all the counter evidence.

Working dogs here CAN be docked. I did also state that in my reply.

But a large proportion won't be. It has not been an issue in countries which have had the ban for years. So I am not convinced.

And also - MOST dogs of a particular breed do NOT work. Most springers are pets... most weims are pets... most rotties are pets....

So........ It. Is. Aesthetic.

Why can't people just say they like the look, but yeah, it's unecessary???

 

[Doberluv]

There are some vets in the U.K, I've read are trying to get the ban there unbanned.

And as many people with first hand experience know, because these breeds are pets doesn't take away the very real potential of injuring those kinds of tails.These breeds are high energy, exuberant dogs. I know one dog, a mix with sight hound in him. He is a pet. He hasn't "worked" a day in his life. He has a very long, thin tail and injured it badly simply by wagging it hard against something. That dog was a shelter dog and never had his tail docked. Too bad it wasn't. It would have saved this dog a lot of pain and resulting recurring infection.

I'll say I like the look too. Definitely. But there are reasons and they're good reasons. Why can't people look at pictures and read if they don't have any first hand experience?

 

[Hairy&Stumpy]

I like the look and I firmly believe in breed standards...whether or not someone's opinion may be that it's aesthetic doesn't bother me. It's my dog and I can do with it like I please, thank-you.

I'm sure human cosmetic surgery can also be aesthetic but we don't march around telling people they are cruel to their own bodies and try and pass laws prohibiting it. That would be silly.

So that fact that people are willing to think and act that way about dogs...to me is just as silly. But, I will also let you have your own opinion even if I disagree. It just doesn't ever seem, however, to be reciprocal when it comes to this issue.

 

[dr2little]

I have seen some pretty awful tail injuries in greyhounds for example, a tail similar to that of an undocked dobie, where every attempt has been made to save the tail and the end result has almost always been to amputate.

I know that in some breeds, the numbers of injuries, or potential for injuries certainly makes for a very good case in favor of docking.

My point again, just to be clear, is that the comparison of docking (in most cases) and s/n, is just not valid.

 

[Dizzy]

There are some vets in the U.K, I've read are trying to get the ban there unbanned.

And as many people with first hand experience know, because these breeds are pets doesn't take away the very real potential of injuring those kinds of tails.These breeds are high energy, exuberant dogs. I know one dog, a mix with sight hound in him. He is a pet. He hasn't "worked" a day in his life. He has a very long, thin tail and injured it badly simply by wagging it hard against something. That dog was a shelter dog and never had his tail docked. Too bad it wasn't. It would have saved this dog a lot of pain and resulting recurring infection.

I'll say I like the look too. Definitely. But there are reasons and they're good reasons. Why can't people look at pictures and read if they don't have any first hand experience?

I know a dog that ran into a field of long grass, hit a lump of cement and broke its leg.

I know a dog that ran head long into a barbed wire fence and cut it's nose.

I know a dog that swallowed rocks and had to have them removed.

I know a dog that ate its toys and had to have them removed.

I know a dog which jumped into a river and drowned.

I could keep going.

I ALSO know lots of dogs who have tails and don't injure them.

So using that logic, it's a good job they weren't docked....

Do you get my point?

One again, the US is one of a dwindling number of countries that still dock pet dogs.

It has nothing to do with "freedom" before we roll out that card.