DNA Typing for Litigation

PFC1

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#1
It's been a while since I have posted, but I have a question that I thought you guys might help me with. I am an attorney, and am defending a dog bite case. The dog in question is a mix. Opposing counsel is making noise that the dog is really a pit bull, or of pit bull descent. All my client knows is what they were told when they adopted. So, here are my questions:

Does anyone have experience with DNA typing, and how accurate it is? If so, can you share?

Are there studies or publications that are available on the subject?

Also, is there a particular vendor that is considered to be highly respected and reliable?

The bite in question, if it happened at all, was extremely minor. So this seems to me to be much ado about nothing. But as you can imagine, given that this is a public forum, I don't really want to say much more.

Thanks in advance.
 

MafiaPrincess

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#2
They aren't reliable. Look up some of Dekka's posts on here. She is working towards being a geneticist. Plus side they are generally so off getting your dog done might work in your favour..

This is one of hers from here

"I have been meaning to make a thread about this for a while now. And acutally I am glad I waited. We are now doing population genetics right now, so I actually have a better handle on why these are a waste of money.

Ok so first things first. One must always look at the source of the information. The companies performing these tests make incredible claims, but.. An example of one of the companies doing these.. Mars 'Wisdom Pannel' is one that taken by your vet and sent off to the company. This is the same company that brings us M&Ms pedigree dog food and Uncle Ben's instant rice. Intersting no?

Ok anyway off to the science...

When they take a sample of a dog, or a human, in order to run a profile, they only look at a small number of alleles (locations on genes) They look at non coding regions of the DNA. So the alleles they use as markers do not code for blue eyes, long hair, brown spots, etc etc.
CODIS for example uses 13 loci to profile people. In lab this year we are profiling ourselves (and I get to profile my son as I got a great DNA sample from a tooth the dentist extracted...) So once you have mapped your alleles at these 13 loci, then you compare them to a database.

This is where the problem arises. Your results are only as good as your database. This is also where it gets tricky with humans in the court system too.

How you 'determine' if your suspect/dog is from a subgroup/breed is to calculate the frequency of those alleles in different databases. So if your alleles are more common in African Americans, then they assume you are African American. (and that can be wrong too) But lets say you only have a good data base of Caucasians, African Americans, native Americans, and Hispanics. You get your allele frequencies back and you compare them and you have most in common with Hispanics...what if you are Polynesian? You can't show up as that, as there is no database (this is all fictional, I am sure there is a Polynesian database somewhere)

Now this issues with the dog DNA tests is that they are only comparing a small number of breeds and the DNA is almost all from US databases. So if your dog has any foreign ancestry that can mess up the results. If your dog has a breed that is not represented in the database then it will mess up the results. Also many breeds share common ancestry, this too can skew results.

When I was researching this on the net there was a news show that covered this. All the news anchors had their dog's DNA tested. It was interesting how the one anchor with a beautiful pure bred golden retrieve was told his dog's DNA showed he was a mix (forget what the mix was, but it was pretty funny) he was obviously upset.

The other main issue I have is that the general public puts so much 'faith' in DNA results (thanx CSI) but DNA results are not that cut and dry. Esp when we are talking DNA + statistics. I get very leery when people start acting like the DNA tests are accurate (this is not to bad on this board) As soon as this gets wide public acceptance, BSL will take on a whole new meaning. That is a scary scary thought."
Papered purebred Am Staff who got tested YouTube - Canine DNA test results
 

Dekka

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#3
Oh yay!

Ok those DNA test are NOT that accurate. This has been proven over and over again in practise. You cannot look at a human's codis profile and say YES this person is caucasion with certainty, let alone saying they Swedish (for example). They can predict but not determine.

Remember DNA profiles (for humans and dogs) use the non coding, or junk DNA. This is the DNA that does not contribute to an animals look, health, behaviour, or temperament. Its just there.

How a profile works is they look at specific loci (Codis uses 13 for example) and see how many repeats exist-how many base pairs, or the size of the allel. Then a statistical tool is used to determine which is the most likely group the animal, or individual falls into. The problem is there is not an appropriate database to compare to at this time, even if there is enough similarity in breeds to make this applicable.

There are countless youtube videos (if you can't find any let me know and I will see if I can dig them up when at home, am at school now) of a pure bred champion staffie showing up as primarily border collie, or a pure bred goldens showing up as mixes. On chaz there was one case of a very large, primarily black, short haired dog coming back as 'mostly maltese'.

In short it depends how you want to use this tool. If you want to say the dog is not a pit bull, and the dog is indeed not, then you are pretty safe using a DNA test. Even if the dog IS a pit bull chances are it will come back as mostly something else anyway.

ETA:haha Maf... yep
 

bubbatd

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#4
I personally don't see how the results whould help your case . Good luck !
 

PFC1

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#5
Dekka Princess, thanks for the prompt response. I knew I came to the right place.

Are there any publications you can point me to on the subject?
 

Dekka

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#6
what do you want the publications to say ;) You want ones saying they are accurate?

Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In
Now this method I think is more promising for determine actual breed. Its just a different way to massage the numbers, but seems more logical to me.

Analysis of Genetic Variation in 28 Dog Breed Populations With 100 Microsatellite Markers -- Irion et al. 94 (1): 81 -- Journal of Heredity this article is good, (acutally really really like this one) but it does point out the limitations of determine breed by SNP profiles.
 

PFC1

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#7
I personally don't see how the results whould help your case . Good luck !
Because our court of appeals, in its infinite wisdom, has held that an owner can be charged with constructive knowledge of a particular dog's dangerous charicterists if the dog belongs to a breed with known dangerous tendancies.

What this means in plain english is that even if a particular pit bull has never bitten someone before and is a total sweetheart, the jury can infer from the mere fact it's a pit bull that the owner knew or should have known it was a dangerous animal. (score one for the BSL advocates.) See how that works? We haven't even proven that a particular dog, in fact, has a dangerous propensity, but the jury can find that the owner must have known of it because it's a pit bull.

It also gives the plaintiff's counsel a platform to hit my client over the head with in closing arguments which could ring true to someone who is not educated enough about the subject to be easily swayed.
 

PFC1

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#8
what do you want the publications to say ;) You want ones saying they are accurate?

Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In
Now this method I think is more promising for determine actual breed. Its just a different way to massage the numbers, but seems more logical to me.

Analysis of Genetic Variation in 28 Dog Breed Populations With 100 Microsatellite Markers -- Irion et al. 94 (1): 81 -- Journal of Heredity this article is good, (acutally really really like this one) but it does point out the limitations of determine breed by SNP profiles.
All I want is the truth. Then I can decide strategy-wise how to proceed.
 

Dekka

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#10
All I want is the truth. Then I can decide strategy-wise how to proceed.
There is no 'truth'. Like most newish things in science. There will be some that will show how accurate something is, others will show how not accurate it is. It might depend on statistical analisis, method, bias etc.

Most studies show they are accurate, in the studies they often are. In reality they are far from accurate with significant regularity.
 

PFC1

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#11
Of course there is truth. The dog has a particular lineage. We just don't know what it is. There are DNA tests that purport to shed light on this issue, and there are studies on the issue, and their accuracy is not without dispute. That is all "truth" that I have to deal with.
 

Dekka

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#12
I thought you were asking truth about the tests.

At this point there is no definitive test to prove a dogs breed.
 

stafinois

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#14
There are countless youtube videos (if you can't find any let me know and I will see if I can dig them up when at home, am at school now) of a pure bred champion staffie showing up as primarily border collie

What you said about foreign ancestry makes sense in that case. The dog in that video is Grant's nephew, Savvy, off Grant's littermate brother, Junior. Grant's sire was an import from Holland. I don't remember off the top of my head who Savvy's dam was, but I'm thinking that she had European ancestry as well.
 

Dekka

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#15
My issue is that most aren't set up to deal with false positives. The software, stats what have you, are forced to pick something in most cases.
 

Dekka

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#17
The thing is those articles are very misleading pitbullpony

Shelter workers, she explained, are generally 75 percent wrong when they list or tell you the breed of a dog. The only sure-fire way of knowing, she said, is DNA testing.
The thing is its not really any more reliable than looks and guessing the breed.
 

pitbullpony

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#19
I am well aware of how limited the DNA tests are (unless of course one is speaking of DNAing a sire/dam/puppy dealie -- and there is still wiggle room there depending on the test used) but when you realize why they showed the video; you know why the quote was said the way it was stated.

^^^^ yeah; I know that sounds really confusing; but think about it.
 

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