Dingo, Coyote, and Wolf Hybrids? What is your opinion

Cassiepeia

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#21
Awww...Adam is GORGEOUS! :D

I really don't think they're dingoes. I do see your point about the import and export of animals back when laws weren't as strict and that it is possible that a few exist over there as pets, decendants of those early dogs, (I'm still absolutely sickened by the fact that people have kangaroos and wallabies as pets over there :mad:, so yes...it's possible that the same tragedy could have befallen the Dingo :( ), but I still find it unlikely (unless they're from illegally imported stock...like I said...which makes me sad).
I think it's more likely that these dingoes are some other primitive breed or simply a mix of domestic dogs. I have, for example, heard Carolina dogs called dingoes on several occasions.

Cass.
 

rhinecat

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#22
Thank you! He's one of my two rescue chis. :)

Considering that I can buy almost any species I can think of, no matter how rare or dangerous, I still really think that there are captive bred dingos somewhere in the US, if not many somewheres. They're also able to be registered by the CKC, ANKC, APRI, and possibly other registries.

That said, I am finding it remarkably difficult to find anyone currently selling dingos in the US. But hey, now I know where to go if I want to buy an African crested porcupine...
 

colliewog

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#23
If I had the time and resources, I would rescue a wolf or coyote hybrid. (I agree that there probably aren't any real Dingos here mixing with other dogs).
 
L

LabBreeder

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#24
Awww heck...either way, it's history. They are related. Whether by distant cousins, direct descendants, or wild dog/wolf cross.
 

rottnpagan

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#25
LabBreeder said:
If you know it obviously you got your information from some source. That means it was looked up at some point, otherwise it's just your opinion. :)

Since my guy stated many facts, I don't get where you come off with saying it's a nice theory. Sounds like you don't enjoy a little knowledgeable competition when it comes to where dogs originated.
Isn't that like saying the sky is blue? I mean, really, you don't need to provide a bibliography for that. Canis Lupus and Canis Lupus Familiaris.

Just for the sake of argument though, here are MY sources, other than biology class:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Canis_lupus_familiaris.html

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Canis_lupus.html
 
L

LabBreeder

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#26
The college isn't the source, the items listed below are. :)
American Kennel Club. 1992. The Complete Dog Book. Howeel Book House, New York, N.Y.

McGinnis, Terri. 1974. The Well Dog Book. Random House, New York

The Marshall Cavendish International Wildlife Encyclopedia.1989. V. 7. Marshall Cavendish Corporation. Freeport, Long Island. New York.

Doesn't say much except, "descended from gray wolves". Nothing about any proof.

Gray wolves are widely recognized to be the ancestor of all domestic dog breeds (Canis lupus familiaris), including feral forms such as dingos (Canis lupus dingo) and New Guinea singing dogs (Canis lupus halstromi). Genetic evidence suggests that gray wolves were domesticated at least twice, and perhaps as many as 5 times, by humans. Artificial selection by humans for particular traits, including size, appearance, aggressiveness, loyalty, and many desirable, specialized skills, has resulted in an astonishing array of domestic dog morphologies. Domestic dogs vary in size from diminutive, 1.5 kg chihuahuas to 90 kg giant mastiffs.

Again, sounds like cousins and not direct descendents. Yes, related...directly, not necessarily. Indirectly, there is more proof (i.e. cousins).

None of the sources really state anything more than "recognized" as being from the gray wolf. Do you have any sources that state any scientific, archaeological, fossilized proof?
 

rottnpagan

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#27
LabBreeder said:
None of the sources really state anything more than "recognized" as being from the gray wolf. Do you have any sources that state any scientific, archaeological, fossilized proof?
From a study at UCLA:

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news24.htm

Wayne said in a statement that DNA sequences of the animals also confirms that wolves are the only true ancestors of domesticated dogs.


That about sums it up. DNA is the king, after all.

Also, just found and so am editing it in.

From a study at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3099

Extrapolating backwards, sequence variations among the most common dog groups imply they shared a common female ancestor about 40,000 years ago. It is possible domestication began at this time.
 
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L

LabBreeder

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#28
Miacis:
Scientists have determined that about 60 million years ago a small mammal called Miacis, the genus that became the ancestor of the animals we know today as dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, The canids.
Canids:
Miacis did not leave direct descendants, but doglike canids evolved from it. By about 30 to 40 million years ago Miacis had evolved into the first true dog called Cynodictis. This was a medium-size animal.

Cynodictis lived about 20 million years ago:
Next in evolutionary line from Miacis was an Oligocene animal called Cynodictis, which somewhat resembled the modern dog. Cynodictis lived about 20 million years ago. Its fifth toe, which would eventually become the dewclaw. Cynodictis also had 42 teeth.Tomarctus:
After a few more intermediate stages the evolution of the dog moved on to the extremely doglike animal called Tomarctus, which lived 10 million years ago during the late Miocene epoch. Tomarctus probably developed the strong social instincts that still prevail in the dog.

Grey Wolf:
It is believed that early dogs dating from about 12,000 - 14,000 years ago came from a strain of grey wolf that inhabited India. Thereafter, this wolf--known as Canis lupus pallipes--was widely distributed throughout Europe, Asia, and North America.
Decedents:
It is also possible that some of the dogs of today descended not from the wolf but rather from the jackal.

So, I've got scientific proof to back up my "theory" of the evolution of wolves/dogs. Yes, they are related but not all directly. However, you can see that dogs evolved from Oligocene, possibly the grey wolf and also jackals.
 
L

LabBreeder

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#29
In reference to your "DNA" proof:
That's all fine and dandy considering the ORIGINAL ancestors are all DEAD by millions of years and the only one's left are the wolves. LOL
 

rottnpagan

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#30
LabBreeder said:

It is also possible that some of the dogs of today descended not from the wolf but rather from the jackal.

So, I've got scientific proof to back up my "theory" of the evolution of wolves/dogs. Yes, they are related but not all directly. However, you can see that dogs evolved from Oligocene, possibly the grey wolf and also jackals.


Except that YOURs states that it's merely 'possible', and mine relies on DNA fact. I fail to see the similarity.
 

rottnpagan

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#31
LabBreeder said:
In reference to your "DNA" proof:
That's all fine and dandy considering the ORIGINAL ancestors are all DEAD by millions of years and the only one's left are the wolves. LOL
Since the question here IS the wolf, and not the 'Miacis', it's completely relevant. You stated that your book hypothesizes that wolves are 'cousins' to the dog, and not a direct ancestor. DNA evidence shows otherwise.
 
L

LabBreeder

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#32
POSSIBLE from the jackal standpoint. Not everything else. Read it right, or don't bother. :)

Again, your DNA isn't all true because the original ancestors have been dead by MILLIONS of years! The only ancestors/relatives left are the wolves.
 
L

LabBreeder

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#33
It is very relavent considering wolves and dogs both descended from the same animal. If you fail to see that, it's not my problem.
 

rottnpagan

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#34
LabBreeder said:
POSSIBLE from the jackal standpoint. Not everything else. Read it right, or don't bother. :)

Again, your DNA isn't all true because the original ancestors have been dead by MILLIONS of years! The only ancestors/relatives left are the wolves.
I can read just fine. Being snide isn't erased with a smilie face, btw.

I am fully aware that the ancestors are no longer alive. I've stated on this point in a previous comment. Unless you've something new to say, I won't be repeating myself.

DNA has shown that wolves are the direct ancestor of the dog. End of science class.
 

rottnpagan

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#35
LabBreeder said:
It is very relavent considering wolves and dogs both descended from the same animal. If you fail to see that, it's not my problem.
Again with rudeness. If you can't handle a civilized debate, perhaps you should reconsider posting on forums publicly?

I'm finished with the discussion.
 
L

LabBreeder

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#37
To bad you can't substantiate your "debate" with archaeological facts instead of book store publications and sites that define what a grey wolf is.

I've made my point quite well and provided ample scientific evidence. I'm done.
 

rottnpagan

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#38
LabBreeder said:
To bad you can't substantiate your "debate" with archaeological facts instead of book store publications and sites that define what a grey wolf is.

I've made my point quite well and provided ample scientific evidence. I'm done.
Wait a second. I'm providing 'bookstore' publications? This all started with you quoting a random vet's hypothesis from a BOOK.

Go figure.
 
L

LabBreeder

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#39
My vet vs. your trussel book store site. ROFL Yeah, that's a good comparison. I already said it once, I'll say it again. I'm done. I've provided scientific archaeological proof. Buh-bye. It was...ummm...interesting, to say the least. :)
 

IliamnasQuest

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#40
Hmmm .. you just have to wonder about people who won't accept DNA evidence .. *L*

Anyway, back to the original topic .. I've had contact with quite a number of wolf-hybrids, as they were once very popular here in Alaska. In fact, there was a breeder about ten miles from me here and she used to bring her animals into the vet clinic when I was a tech. She also produced (and sold) full-blooded wolves. I had the somewhat dubious pleasure of working with one of these wolves.

In all honesty, most of the people who I've seen who claim their dog is a wolf hybrid are just saying that. Most of those animals didn't appear to be hybrids to me (after being around many). They didn't have the physical look or the personality that I've seen in the "real" thing. It was popular to have a hybrid and so people would make the assumption that their dog (usually a husky, shepherd or malemute mix) had wolf because they had a bit of a wolfy look.

The problem with mixing a wolf with a dog is that the animal can easily have personality traits that are consistent with a wild animal. Even the wolves that were bred and born in captivity were NOT anything like a domestic dog. The wolf that came to me for training was nine months old and had been hand-raised from the age of two weeks. His owner brought him into the shop where I did my private training and I had her drop the leash so he could explore. I had everyone do this at first. But this animal didn't act like a dog .. he explored things in a much more thorough way. A box wasn't merely sniffed in passing - it was examined in depth, to the point of sniffing all the sides and even pushing it a bit. When he came to the fridge, he nosed the towel that was tied to the handle (I had been training a dog to open the fridge to fetch a beer). He nosed it, sniffed it, then grabbed the towel in his mouth and yanked the door open! Scared himself, too .. he jumped back and watched it while it closed.

His movement, his persistence in examining everything about him .. these were not like any dog I'd been around (or have been around since then). And his way of dealing with things was interesting too. He would lay claim to something and then defend it even though it was something unimportant (it seemed). He picked up one of the dog beds that was on the floor and started carrying it around! And his owner said "well, we can't take it from him now". I approached him and he froze, hackles came up and he started to growl. So I took a handful of meat and just stood there talking to him .. I knew he couldn't get the meat without dropping the bed .. *L* .. eventually he made the choice to drop the bed and approach me for the meat, and I took his leash and walked him away from the bed so we could put it up.

He had a number of problems, caused by a combination of ignorance on the part of the owner and Wraith's inability to understand humans. He was a wolf, not bred to be a companion of man, but bred to live in the wild - and here he was, confined and collared and made to be a pet. It was a bad match and his way of dealing with it was to become aggressive.

Using lots of reinforcement and little to no confrontations, we were able to work through some of the problems. He learned to willingly go into a crate. He learned to accept having a harness put on him. But his owner wanted him to pull a sled, and I tried to get her to understand that he was not bred to pull a sled .. it was sad because he was a gorgeous animal and so unsuited to what she actually wanted. But she said she'd had a wolf hybrid at one point and it was the best sled dog she'd ever had. So in her mind, a full wolf should be even better.

I see NO reason for anyone to purposely get a hybrid dog, other than to feed their own egos. Wild creatures should not be treated like domestic dogs and at times it becomes a dangerous situation because the wild side has no clue as to how to live with us puny humans. While we will always hear stories of "I had a wolf hybrid and it was the BEST DOG" .. most true hybrids retain a great number of the wolf traits and that eventually creates problems.

Let the wild creatures live in the wild .. we have enough domesticated animals already.

BTW, Wraith was eventually euthanized because of continuing aggression .. he never had a chance ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

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