Dealing with Bamm and kids

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I agree with avoiding internet diagnosis, but I do have to say I wouldn't compare a Malinois, a breed known to be unforgiving of owner mistakes, to most dogs. My dog hasn't bitten me hard( playful mouthy, yes) ever since he was a puppy. He is definitely not a perfect dog. He is actually very shy and insecure, but still, he never bitten any of us, even in more stressful situations. Is he capable? 100%. There have been times, especially when I try cutting his nails, where he has shown that he is willing to bite, so I'm not saying it is impossible. But reading some of the reasons both dogs bite, I would be very alarm if a pit bull, for example, reacted the same way your dogs did. In fact, Malinois seem like a breed bred for useable instability.
Well I think the point was just that for most people on the forum, there isn't enough information about the bites to really even label Bamm as unstable at this point.

Which is one reason an unbiased behaviorist could be very helpful.
 

Laurelin

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I think the point was just that a bite does not mean the dog is a lost cause. A bite to each person can be a very different thing regarding severity. My dogs aren't bite sport dogs (hardly) but I've been bitten by three of them including one I own now. I have a nice scar from trey in particular. But they weren't unjustified bites at all. Even when Mia nailed me a couple months ago- it shocked me but then after I step back I saw clear triggers and warning signs. I was just too dense to notice. Summer is one of those dogs I think you could beat and she would never even raise a lip at you but those are rare dogs in my experience. Dogs in general will bite.

I think what Adrianne is saying is that we didn't see the bites so its hard to say why the bites occurred. She is not saying bamm is safe with a baby in the house.
 

Tahla9999

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Useable instability? What does that mean?

What I mean is they are a breed bred for extremes. Constantly on, a breed who some owners claim that they have a hard time imagining their dogs relax or sleeping, some constantly pacing. A breed who reacts without thinking, which, seeing what jobs they are bred for, is a very good trait to have, but would be too much even for some working homes. They are known to being very unforgiven of their owner's mistakes to the point where bites could occur of their owner is not careful. Reading of Fran's experience with two Malinois and the bite that was inflicted on her, where the dogs weren't being aggressive, they just automatically reacted with a bite, I feel that this breed bite inhibition is a lot less compared to most breeds. Maybe useable instability isn't the right words to use, but they are definitely a breed that is "out there".
 

AdrianneIsabel

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I agree with avoiding internet diagnosis, but I do have to say I wouldn't compare a Malinois, a breed known to be unforgiving of owner mistakes, to most dogs. My dog hasn't bitten me hard( playful mouthy, yes) ever since he was a puppy. He is definitely not a perfect dog. He is actually very shy and insecure, but still, he never bitten any of us, even in more stressful situations. Is he capable? 100%. There have been times, especially when I try cutting his nails, where he has shown that he is willing to bite, so I'm not saying it is impossible. But reading some of the reasons both dogs bite, I would be very alarm if a pit bull, for example, reacted the same way your dogs did. In fact, Malinois seem like a breed bred for useable instability.
Which is why I used my pit bulls bites additionally. I have been bitten by several other breeds as well and can use them if that makes you feel more comfortable with my stance on the subject. For the record Bamm is a border collie and possible Akita, not exactly a "no bite" breed and far from a bull breed.

Useable instability? What does that mean?
I would love to know.

I'm not sure comparing bamm to dogs trained for bite work and owned by people who train those dogs is really helpful either.

If this thread was about bamm being a bite work dog... Maybe.

This is about adding a baby... Your dogs have bitten you and you're ok with that.

Would you forgive them if a child was bitten?

If skittle is going to take bamm to intensive bite work type classes whilst pregnant or with a baby, then she's a better woman than many I know!!

Realistically erring on the side of caution is helpful when you add kids to any mix, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure she knows bamm more than anyone, I don't think its helpful to say my dog bit and theyre ok, and we are ok.

You own dogs you want to bite and you are a dedicated bite work trainer.

Wooorlds apart.
Actually my dogs biting, my clients dogs biting, my foster dogs biting has nothing to do with bitework. The fact we are bite sport people as well as working with a high volume of reactive and insecure dogs however has helped me understand bites and dogs more than the average dog owner.

Well I think the point was just that for most people on the forum, there isn't enough information about the bites to really even label Bamm as unstable at this point.

Which is one reason an unbiased behaviorist could be very helpful.
Pure and simple.

I think the point was just that a bite does not mean the dog is a lost cause. A bite to each person can be a very different thing regarding severity. My dogs aren't bite sport dogs (hardly) but I've been bitten by three of them including one I own now. I have a nice scar from trey in particular. But they weren't unjustified bites at all. Even when Mia nailed me a couple months ago- it shocked me but then after I step back I saw clear triggers and warning signs. I was just too dense to notice. Summer is one of those dogs I think you could beat and she would never even raise a lip at you but those are rare dogs in my experience. Dogs in general will bite.

I think what Adrianne is saying is that we didn't see the bites so its hard to say why the bites occurred. She is not saying bamm is safe with a baby in the house.
This too, thank you.

What I mean is they are a breed bred for extremes. Constantly on, a breed who some owners claim that they have a hard time imagining their dogs relax or sleeping, some constantly pacing. A breed who reacts without thinking, which, seeing what jobs they are bred for, is a very good trait to have, but would be too much even for some working homes. They are known to being very unforgiven of their owner's mistakes to the point where bites could occur of their owner is not careful. Reading of Fran's experience with two Malinois and the bite that was inflicted on her, where the dogs weren't being aggressive, they just automatically reacted with a bite, I feel that this breed bite inhibition is a lot less compared to most breeds. Maybe useable instability isn't the right words to use, but they are definitely a breed that is "out there".
I don't think instability is an educated, nor fair, way to label this breed. Instability exists in every breed, it is not desired in any breed.
 

Danefied

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Hrm... just to add some confusion to the conversation... :)

I was bitten as a kid by the family dog, a small terrier. My sister was bitten by her friend's family dog, a doberman. My best friend was bitten by the family's GSD. My mom was bitten by her GSD. It used to be kind of par for the course that if you own dogs you're probably going to get bitten at some point or another. I'm willing to bet we could do a huge thread on here of dog bites sustained by members as kids, the vast majority of which were bandaided at most. Or am I that out of touch?
FWIW, the terrier was the one above who did the most damage, but it was still pretty insignificant. A parrot bite left a bigger scar, and I won't even get in to the scars I have from horses.

So, saying "if Bamm bit your child you would never forgive yourself" or the like seems a bit overdramatic to me. I certainly don't think my parents agonized over the fact that any of us got bitten as kids. In fact in my case I distinctly remember my mom telling me to quit putting my face in the dog's face.

I'm not trying to be cavalier about anything, I hope it's not coming off that way. And certainly I know Bamm least of anyone on here. But even if he is unstable, an unstable dog with stellar bite inhibition in a knowledgeable home is certainly not the end of the world is it?

The other thing about dogs who HAVE bitten, is that, well, now you know. You know triggers, you know what kind of bite inhibition the dog has, you probably know body language that leads up to the bite, you KNOW.
And also since you KNOW the dog will bite, you take precautions that a lot of families with "good" dogs get slack about.

This is a great site all together, but these two blogs especially tie in to what I'm trying to convey here.

This one about being realistic about dog bites:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.co...-statistics-do-the-math-before-you-freak-out/

And this one about how it's good to think your dog might bite:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/05/20/i-think-my-dog-might-bite-my-kids-and-im-glad/
 

milos_mommy

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Adrienne - I didn't say Bamm was unstable, I said he was unpredictably aggressive. Amber can not always predict what will trigger him, I'm not sure if someone more experienced in dog behavior could.

I've been on this forum since Amber adopted Bamm. I've read about at least some his bites...and their triggers, which at first, did seem predictable and understandable (all men, all making Amber uncomfortable or doing something that could easily be seen as threatening by the dog). A lot of leash reactivity...but then she mentioned he went after roommate a few times for no determinable reason, and has growled at multiple other people in the home for no determinable reason...

And this dog recently displayed threats and signs of aggression to Josh - and as far as I know, Bamm LOVES Josh - with no apparent trigger. Getting off the couch calmly and moving away from the dog isn't going to be a trigger for a stable dog. There are also the comments Nolu has made, and the fact that Amber's boss (apparently a behaviorist) thinks he's unstable. Amber herself has said he's unstable.

You can't evaluate a dog over the internet, at all, but if everything that's been said about him by the various Chaz members who have met him is true, and Amber's boss is actually knowledgable about dog behavior, I'd be pretty confident in saying he IS unstable.
 

Dogdragoness

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That's why having a full work up done medically speaking would be a good idea.

This sounds like something more than simple behavioral problems, ESP the mention of recent changes in behavior.
 

milos_mommy

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Bamm has - or at least Amber has said she was getting - a full medical work up multiple times in the past. He's always checked out medically fine.

This issues are not recent, or sudden. Bamm had reactivity and some aggression issues when Amber adopted him years ago. He's displayed pretty serious leash aggression AND aggression in the home towards men since she got him, and I don't know how long ago his first bite was, but it was at least a few years ago. He didn't bite the landlady all that recently, either.

I don't even think it's that Bamm has gotten worse over time, at all...he's maybe even made progress. But even with a lot of training, management, and behaviorist consults (and medical work-ups, although another couldn't hurt), he STILL shows unpredictable aggression.

I'm not saying it can't be managed, or kept at a level where he can live safely and comfortably around people/his family...but I know Amber has put a lot of work into Bamm's behavior, and it's been up and down. This is by far not the first thread about Bamm's aggression problems, and it doesn't seem like much has behaviorally changed - for better OR worse.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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And it's very possible Bamm is one of those rare cases, a dog that is just unmanageable for whatever reason.

I don't think it's fair to the dog and the owner to evaluate him online but I understand that we're all entitled to our own evaluations and you really have known her situation longer than I have.

For what it's worth, I won't let a dog walker, or even anyone I know beyond Denis, walk Arnold. Not because he has the potential for human aggression but he has, can, and will kill other dogs and I don't want someone to mismanage nor get hurt in an attempt to rectify a dangerous situation. The point is dogs in general, be it extremes like game lines, LGD, bitesport, or anything, need to be managed and some more than others. A trainer and then behaviorist is the first stop if management is faultering and the owner is unsure of what they're missing by way of triggers. If the behaviorist feels meds would help, awesome. If they think the dog should be rehomed, consider it. If they feel the dog is unhelpable then get a second opinion and consider the worst. The internet and vague bite descriptions are not the way to go. That being said, maybe all of this has already been tried and Amber is at the end of her rope with the dog, lord knows I have been keys in hand, tears streaming, and ready to take Arnold to be put down.

The place I come from, where as years ago I would be in the one bite=dirt nap old school pit bull mentality, does not stem purely from bite work. I work with people every single day who have dogs that are "out of control". Day 1 I always get a different story than Day 2 and Day 6. Details come up, the owner either remembers or begins to see things in a new light and things become clearer.

This doesn't mean all dogs are workable, I merely mean to show it's not a black and white situation when dogs bite, there are so many shades of grey and so many options for them. Suppression and muzzles, black boxing and rotation isn't the only option nor always the best.

As I have said before I trust Amber truly loves Bamm, she's shown it many times over, and she will continue to do what is best for him. I do hope there is some peace in sight, I know there are some hard decisions to make.

Edited to try and be more concise.
 
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Xandra

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Hrm... just to add some confusion to the conversation... :)

I was bitten as a kid by the family dog, a small terrier. My sister was bitten by her friend's family dog, a doberman. My best friend was bitten by the family's GSD. My mom was bitten by her GSD. It used to be kind of par for the course that if you own dogs you're probably going to get bitten at some point or another. I'm willing to bet we could do a huge thread on here of dog bites sustained by members as kids, the vast majority of which were bandaided at most. Or am I that out of touch?
FWIW, the terrier was the one above who did the most damage, but it was still pretty insignificant. A parrot bite left a bigger scar, and I won't even get in to the scars I have from horses.

So, saying "if Bamm bit your child you would never forgive yourself" or the like seems a bit overdramatic to me. I certainly don't think my parents agonized over the fact that any of us got bitten as kids. In fact in my case I distinctly remember my mom telling me to quit putting my face in the dog's face.

I'm not trying to be cavalier about anything, I hope it's not coming off that way. And certainly I know Bamm least of anyone on here. But even if he is unstable, an unstable dog with stellar bite inhibition in a knowledgeable home is certainly not the end of the world is it?

The other thing about dogs who HAVE bitten, is that, well, now you know. You know triggers, you know what kind of bite inhibition the dog has, you probably know body language that leads up to the bite, you KNOW.
And also since you KNOW the dog will bite, you take precautions that a lot of families with "good" dogs get slack about.

This is a great site all together, but these two blogs especially tie in to what I'm trying to convey here.
I did somewhat consider this when thinking about things. If you spend a lot of time around critters it's natural that they will nail you from time to time, especially if you're a kid.

Few things though:

I don't want to put words in Amber's mouth but I think the problem is she does NOT know the triggers. He will get seemingly randomly sketched out. I get the feeling that things that he previously didn't have a problem with will suddenly cause him to bite/react.

IIRC, last time he bit someone, which I think was in her apartment building, he wouldn't release! That's not a normal "screw off" sort of bite.

If my kid harasses an animal, the animal gives warning signs and then it gives some reasonable retaliation, as far as I'm concerned that's a lesson. Totally different than the kid behaving himself and getting nailed in the face because the noise or the movement sketched the dog out. That's just not something I would subject my kids to to spare the dog.

Now and then were different times. Having a dog that you KNOW bites, bite your kid's friend is setting yourself up for a lawsuit. Even if the parents of the kid who was bitten are OK with it, here you have to tell the hospital whose dog bit you, and if it isn't yours they look into it.
 

milos_mommy

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For the record, I don't think "unstable" means unmanageable. Even if you can't predict or identify triggers, with a dog like Bamm who shows warning signs of aggression, it's pretty manageable for a knowledgable or experienced owner.
 

momto8

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For the record, I don't think "unstable" means unmanageable. Even if you can't predict or identify triggers, with a dog like Bamm who shows warning signs of aggression, it's pretty manageable for a knowledgable or experienced owner.
I agree with this!
 
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Hrm... just to add some confusion to the conversation... :)

I was bitten as a kid by the family dog, a small terrier. My sister was bitten by her friend's family dog, a doberman. My best friend was bitten by the family's GSD. My mom was bitten by her GSD. It used to be kind of par for the course that if you own dogs you're probably going to get bitten at some point or another. I'm willing to bet we could do a huge thread on here of dog bites sustained by members as kids, the vast majority of which were bandaided at most. Or am I that out of touch?
FWIW, the terrier was the one above who did the most damage, but it was still pretty insignificant. A parrot bite left a bigger scar, and I won't even get in to the scars I have from horses.

So, saying "if Bamm bit your child you would never forgive yourself" or the like seems a bit overdramatic to me. I certainly don't think my parents agonized over the fact that any of us got bitten as kids. In fact in my case I distinctly remember my mom telling me to quit putting my face in the dog's face.

I'm not trying to be cavalier about anything, I hope it's not coming off that way. And certainly I know Bamm least of anyone on here. But even if he is unstable, an unstable dog with stellar bite inhibition in a knowledgeable home is certainly not the end of the world is it?

The other thing about dogs who HAVE bitten, is that, well, now you know. You know triggers, you know what kind of bite inhibition the dog has, you probably know body language that leads up to the bite, you KNOW.
And also since you KNOW the dog will bite, you take precautions that a lot of families with "good" dogs get slack about.

This is a great site all together, but these two blogs especially tie in to what I'm trying to convey here.

This one about being realistic about dog bites:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.co...-statistics-do-the-math-before-you-freak-out/

And this one about how it's good to think your dog might bite:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/05/20/i-think-my-dog-might-bite-my-kids-and-im-glad/
No one in my family was ever bitten by our family dog, nor would one that bit one of us been allowed to stay. I was bitten by someone's Jack Russell (who leapt over a 5 foot fence at a standstill) while i was riding my bike and since I was his 3rd bit he was PTS that week. My family dog did bite a kid once, he was loose and the kid was rollerblading, that was his one and only bit, had he ever bitten again he would have been PTS. Bites are not something our family accepts.
 

Romy

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No one in my family was ever bitten by our family dog, nor would one that bit one of us been allowed to stay. I was bitten by someone's Jack Russell (who leapt over a 5 foot fence at a standstill) while i was riding my bike and since I was his 3rd bit he was PTS that week. My family dog did bite a kid once, he was loose and the kid was rollerblading, that was his one and only bit, had he ever bitten again he would have been PTS. Bites are not something our family accepts.
Same.

As a kid I was bit once by the neighbor's lab. It was eating a heap of potato chips on the ground when I walked by and he whipped around, ran at me, grabbed and shook my forearm. Didn't break the skin because I was wearing a heavy jacket, but left huge bruises.

Same dog mauled his own little girl less than a year later. I mean, he mauled her. They had to sew her face back on. She was holding a hamster. He wanted to eat it, and she said, "No! Go lay down!" So he decided to eat her face instead. If her parents hadn't been sitting a few feet away at the time and pulled him off immediately, he would have killed her.

Children's bodies are amazingly resilient, but so very delicate at the same time. It doesn't take much in terms of a well placed dog bite to kill a small child. Babies are even more vulnerable.
 

Muttkip

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Same.

As a kid I was bit once by the neighbor's lab. It was eating a heap of potato chips on the ground when I walked by and he whipped around, ran at me, grabbed and shook my forearm. Didn't break the skin because I was wearing a heavy jacket, but left huge bruises.

Same dog mauled his own little girl less than a year later. I mean, he mauled her. They had to sew her face back on. She was holding a hamster. He wanted to eat it, and she said, "No! Go lay down!" So he decided to eat her face instead. If her parents hadn't been sitting a few feet away at the time and pulled him off immediately, he would have killed her.

Children's bodies are amazingly resilient, but so very delicate at the same time. It doesn't take much in terms of a well placed dog bite to kill a small child. Babies are even more vulnerable.
Please tell me that dog was shot on sight?
 

skittledoo

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Just wanted to pop in to let you guys know I'm still reading this thread. Writing up a response since I know Adrianne for one wanted some examples of his bites and it's a lot to type up since I'm trying my best to remember exactly how each one played out and it's hard to remember exact details on the couple that happened years ago. I was at work all day today though so jumped onto chaz on my phone whenever I could to catch up on reading this thread and I have to get to bed because I have to work again tomorrow. Will reply probably sometime tomorrow evening and if not then for sure one Wednesday since I'm off work Wednesday.
 

skittledoo

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Thanks, you honestly don't owe me any response but I am curious and also hoping it may help find something helpful.

Take your time.
I know I don't owe a response, but I want to because maybe me typing what I can remember might provide some insight as to what I could potentially be doing wrong in the situation as well you know? I want to do what I can to figure this whole thing out and if it doesn't work out and I end up making some tough decisions in the end then I want to look back and be able to tell myself that I really tried my damndest with him.

I planned to call my vet today to get an idea on the costs of all the things I want to get checked out to see what I can and can't afford to do right now. Last time I looked into this stuff I had his thyroid checked out and they didn't find anything. I think I'm going to start with his eyesight and hearing first and go from there. I'm not sure how much a neurological exam is going to cost and even what all they have to do to check for brain tumors and the like to rule that out. If I have to I'll start with one thing at a time and then save up to check for the next one. It ended up getting ridiculously busy at work though so I didn't get around to it. Will call them either tomorrow or talk to them when I go there Wednesday for Joey's appointment. I also have to get Joey in to a chiropractor for an adjustment... dogs... lol.

Also, if anyone knows any good behaviorists in the Northern VA/DC area please feel free to direct me. I'd prefer to talk to a behaviorist that doesn't have any preconceived notions about him and go from there. I might have to start with one thing at a time as I can afford it since I unfortunately don't have a ton of money saved aside and what I did have saved ended up going towards a couple unplanned vet appointments recently... one of which was when Cricket got hurt playing in water and punctured her foot between her toes a couple weeks ago.

OMG I seriously need to go to bed. Going to post a few photos from this past weekend with Jacksonsmom real quick and then have to go to bed because I'm starting to fall asleep at my computer.
 

stardogs

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Skittle, look for health clinics at local dog shows - often you can get eye and hearing exams for way way less through health clinics. Aeri's eye exam was something like $30 total vs. $120+ at the specialty clinic. You'd need to be careful with Bamm in that environment (muzzle, etc.), but it's worth a look.
 

Southpaw

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Hrm... just to add some confusion to the conversation... :)

I was bitten as a kid by the family dog, a small terrier. My sister was bitten by her friend's family dog, a doberman. My best friend was bitten by the family's GSD. My mom was bitten by her GSD. It used to be kind of par for the course that if you own dogs you're probably going to get bitten at some point or another. I'm willing to bet we could do a huge thread on here of dog bites sustained by members as kids, the vast majority of which were bandaided at most. Or am I that out of touch?
FWIW, the terrier was the one above who did the most damage, but it was still pretty insignificant. A parrot bite left a bigger scar, and I won't even get in to the scars I have from horses.

So, saying "if Bamm bit your child you would never forgive yourself" or the like seems a bit overdramatic to me. I certainly don't think my parents agonized over the fact that any of us got bitten as kids. In fact in my case I distinctly remember my mom telling me to quit putting my face in the dog's face.

I'm not trying to be cavalier about anything, I hope it's not coming off that way. And certainly I know Bamm least of anyone on here. But even if he is unstable, an unstable dog with stellar bite inhibition in a knowledgeable home is certainly not the end of the world is it?

The other thing about dogs who HAVE bitten, is that, well, now you know. You know triggers, you know what kind of bite inhibition the dog has, you probably know body language that leads up to the bite, you KNOW.
And also since you KNOW the dog will bite, you take precautions that a lot of families with "good" dogs get slack about.

This is a great site all together, but these two blogs especially tie in to what I'm trying to convey here.

This one about being realistic about dog bites:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.co...-statistics-do-the-math-before-you-freak-out/

And this one about how it's good to think your dog might bite:
http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/05/20/i-think-my-dog-might-bite-my-kids-and-im-glad/
I don't know.... my own dogs have never laid teeth on me, or anyone (well you know, aside from puppy stuff). And if they ever did, my parents would have them out of the house that very same day. Of course, my mom does daycare so that makes it even more imperative that my dogs DO NOT bite under any circumstance... but I would have no hesitation leaving my dogs unsupervised with kids. Maybe it's stupid for me to say "my dogs would never bite" but... I feel pretty dang confident that they just wouldn't. They're very tolerant.

Different perspectives I guess. I would not tolerate biting, I expect my dogs to not lay teeth on skin and I just can't follow the viewpoint of "dogs are dogs and dogs will bite."

I don't really know anything about Bamm or his history. Just from this thread though I can't say he's a dog I would trust around children. Not sure what I would do about that, again I don't know him so I don't know how severe it is or what would be realistic.
 

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