Culling puppies

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Dizzy, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I know this has been discussed to DEATH! And I am not looking for a discussion, just airing a thought.

    I just read this:

    It just made me sad :( And then angry :mad:

    It encapsulates EVERYTHING I hate about breeding dogs. Oh and this is from the breed club.

    Australian Shepherd Club of America, inc | Facts Breeding
     
  2. 4dogs3cats

    4dogs3cats Aroooooo!

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    I agree. Perfectly healthy puppies that can go to a pet only home.

    But then I also disagree with e-spaying oops litters. Again, never will be a show prospect, but still perfectly healthy puppies.
     
  3. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I can remember when white GS and Boxers were culled . Sad !
     
  4. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    if the puppies were so unwell (ie born very deformed and unable to live a good life) then i agree with humane euthanization...
    but kiulling a puppy at birth simply because its white, deaf dogs can learn faster than dogs who can hear thanks to hand signals and body language being much easier to learn, blind dogs can live long happy lives in a home willing to work with the dog (and not move the furniture too often)

    i find this kind of attitude discusting, there are more than enough wonderfull homes out there that would be happy to offer a wonderfull forver home to a special needs dog.
    a puppy like this should be sent home spay/neutered or on a STRICT contract to spay/neuter and some real strict followups on it...
    but killed simply because?!

    Sick...

    there are definatly aspects of breed clubs and confirmation that discust me...this "cull it and forget it" attitude makes me sick...
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Hmm....well, I think that if you have a puppy with an obvious severe deformity or condition with no hope of recovery and that would make life nothing but pain (this includes some mental illness, as a dog that is so terrified of everything that it attacks everything is both dangerous and suffering) then yeah it's probably best to let it go.

    I do not think that deafness/blindness fall into that category. Euthanizing double merle pups on speculation is just that, you don't even know if they are affected by those problems or not. They could be totally fine.

    Then again, I don't agree with double merle breedings anyway. I do not think it's ethical to do a breeding with substantial potential for problems like that to begin with, and wouldn't do business with someone who did. To me that would be like breeding two dysplastic dogs together, hoping for the best, then euthanizing the ones that didn't turn out healthy.
     
  6. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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  7. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Like the others, I agree with culling puppies with obvious, life-altering deformaties.

    I also don't agree with merle X merle breedings, and wouldn't support a breeder who did.

    That said, I don't disagree with culling blind and/or deaf puppies. I think that these dogs would have to go to relatively experienced, dog-savy homes, and homes like that that are willing to take in a special needs dog are becoming few and far between. Personally, I would not take a blind puppy (though if my dog went blind later in life, obviously I'd keep her). And if I wouldn't do it, why should I expect someone else to do it?

    I would take a deaf puppy..... In fact one day I hope to rescue a deaf dog, I think it would be an interesting training challenge.
     
  8. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    actually lizzy its EASIER to train a deaf dog than it is to train a hearing dog...
    the biggest challeng is recal since they cant here you and most people training deaf dogs for recall use a vibrating collar (or ligths at night). but hand signals dont have to be "official" (i make most of mine up when i was working with my past deaf dog and the deaf foster dog) and dogs learn hand signals MUCH quicker/easier than they do human words.

    blind dogs just need ot be trained on verbal commands and need a person whos willing to build confidence through guidence (the dog must trust its owner) and one whos willing to keep their house layout how it is and keep a routein...most blind dogs learn they way around a new place in no time, ok so they bump into a few things in the beginning but there no harder to train than having a dog who can see...
    my friend has a blind aussie who runs agility, obedience and frestyle...in truth if you didnt look at her face you would have absolutly no idea she had no vision (shes missing both her eyes)

    blind dogs are certainly a little more of a challeng than most deaf dogs, but neither are so disabled that they are hard to train...
    i think the lessening number of people willing to take on "disabled" dogs is based on 1: having the "prefect dog" people forget that these dogs can be just as if not even more perfect...King, my dane growing up was my angel, he was 100% deaf and blind in one eye but he was smart as a whip and will alsways be my first true heart dog...
    and 2: based on the fact that most think raising these "special needs" dogs is going to be millions times more "challenging" than raising a normal puppy...in truth, its the exact same, you just modify the training method a little.

    :)

    thus far every deaf dog ive had trained easier than those with perfect hearing, and ive never seen dogs bond as strongly to their people as those with vision impairments.
     
  9. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    This. Even contemplating a double merle breeding is reprehensible in my view of the world. I've had an Aussie who was the result of a double merle, O'Riley. He was an amazing animal, born blind (both eyes severely deformed), but he was the bravest creature I've ever known, brilliantly intelligent, and totally affectionate and devoted to us. He would even leave his food, knowing there were other dogs around, in order to be petted. I never once regretted bringing him home from the pound, where he was about to be euthed, since no one wanted a 3 month old, high energy, blind puppy, but whoever bred him should be strung up.
     
  10. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    As far as I can see the aussie club says this is OK as long as you cull the deformed pups...
     
  11. puppydog

    puppydog Tru evil has no pantyline

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    The whole thing makes me sick to be honest.
     
  12. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I think by breeding dogs you are responsible for what you are bringing into this world. Other than dogs that are born with a life threatening illness or deformity.. euthanasia SHOULD NOT be used to get rid of puppies that are seen as "less" because of cosmetics.

    It starts with colors.. white puppies, spotted puppies, etc..

    whats next? Keep the agility and herding prospects and then just cull the rest.. because they just aren't worth it!?
    Keeping the smaller puppies in smaller breed litters and just cull the rest because they aren't the "ideal" size?

    For EVERY healthy puppy.. there is a family out there who would love it. Sure, maybe an all white puppy isn't going to get you $1200 like the rest of the litter.. but YOU bred those dogs, YOU brought that puppy into the world and its YOUR responsibility to find it a home.
    If necessary, just don't register that pup. and find it a home for a small adoption fee.

    I don't understand how DOG LOVERS could sleep at night knowing they are killing healthy puppies because of their COLOR.. its just disgusting to me, im sorry.

    Aussies are beautiful dogs, and not ever family is looking for that beautiful blue merle agility dog.. somewhere there is a family looking for a beautiful, active, wellbred pet.

    I am a FIRM believer in the fact that breeders are RESPONSIBLE for what they bring into this world and should MAN UP to that responsibility.
     
  13. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I never even posted this part *vomits*

     
  14. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    that is awful.

    Just find a home that is PREPARED to deal with a deaf dog and a home that is ready to accept the responsibility of having a deaf or blind dog. AKA: not letting their dog run loose where they could not hear or see a car coming.
    Blindness is less common..that, ive had no experience with.
    but i have OWNED a deaf dalmatian, that was also going to be PTS, and she was actually rather easy to train. we got her a collar that vibrates.
    was it harder than a normal hearing dog? yes. but was it worth it? of course it was. the breeder gave these deaf pups away to qualified homes, for only the price of the spay/neuter.

    I think its more about "their breeding program" then anything else..
     
  15. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I just feel like they brought these pups into this world.. and if they are otherwise healthy, they should be given the chance to have homes.

    In a litter, if one puppy is white and deaf.. im sure it wouldn't be THAT hard to find that puppy a home. especially at a reasonable adoption fee.

    If a breeder is going to take that risk, and breed double merles or w/e.. then I think they should be prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions. and by "dealing with" i mean, finding homes/adopting out puppies that are less than perfect.. not kill them.

    If the puppy is both blind AND deaf, or has some kind of problem that will mess up its quality of life, then euthanasia, in my eyes, is an option. but otherwise.. i just don't think its ok.

    just my 2 cents



    Blindness is not something I can comment about ,because Ive never owned a blind dog. and don't know anything about it.
     
  16. dobesgalore

    dobesgalore New Member

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    It just kills me. My heart breaks for these puppies.
     
  17. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    diz, thats horrible...

    that very quote you posted right there makes it also sound like they advocate letting these dogs run loose

    " If you really care about the Australian Shepherd, dont do it! That white Aussie is advertising the Australian Shepherd Breed everywhere it goes, as well as your breeding program."

    Yeah its advertising that the person who bred for that litter is an irresponsible peice of poop, anyone breeding merle to merle purposly needs shooting, the risk is too high, instead of saying that its ok as long as you kill all the white ones, make it taboo to breed merle to merle at all, a breed club should be promoting RESPONSIBLE breeding by discourgaing breeding that is likely to result in these kinds of issue *grumble*
    you see things like this in every breed to, its just sickening...
    the whole "dust the ones that arnt perfect under the rug" attitude would make me never want to join a breed club that allows this kind of breeding program...

    "So many times the end of the story is the heartbreak of the child you gave that cute white puppy to crying because the dog never knew the family car was coming- he never saw or heard it start. "
    WHY oh why is this hypothetical dog running round loose to the point where it COULD get hit by a car?!
    i wouldnt allow any of my dogs to play anywhere there could even be a possibility of being hit, the backyard is fenced off from the driveway so they cant get hit, accidentally running over a dog happens from irresponsible ownership (or a simple accident form door bolting ect)...not because the dog is blind and/or deaf...
     
  18. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    The "white-factored" or "lethal white" pups usually were culled, because this is a WORKING breed and a deaf/blind dog is utterly useless on stock. It's hard enough to find homes for all the completely healthy Aussies out there, keeping all the deaf/blind dogs because someone else feels "bad" about having to euth them isn't exactly fair either. Yes, these dogs can adapt pretty well in the right home, but those homes aren't exactly popping out of the woodwork.

    I despise MxM breedings but there are times when the two best dogs for the lines both end up being merle...it's a calculated risk sometimes taken. Not often, thankfully.
     
  19. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    There are already a gazillion pet dogs. X number of them get euthanized in a nasty shelter every day. Some are really cool dogs (see I.Do.Not.Have.Time.For.A.Puppy.). Why? Because there are too many (completely healthy!) pet dogs and not enough pet homes.

    My personal opinion it is the breeder's single greatest responsibility to put the breed above all- including individual dogs and their own emotions. Giving out blind/deaf dogs is doing the opposite.

    Within each litter, breeders should also strive to produce the greatest number of AWESOME representatives of their breed (note: I don't mean greatest number of litters). To me it is beyond ridiculous that you would breed where the best temperament of the litter could be in a deaf/blind body? WHY?!?! wouldn't you just breed your bitch to a non-merle stud?

    ETA Zoom! I can see in a rare breed where there is a small number of breeding animals to choose from, but surely, with Aussies an equally good stud could be found for the bitch?
     
  20. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    If the two "best" dogs for a breeding are likely to produce pups that will have to be culled, then IMHO tough titties--don't do the breeding. Who cares if a breeder is producing the "perfect" aussie if they are knowingly leaving dead pups in their wake? In my eyes, I don't care how many titles a breeder has, if they are knowingly and deliberately breeding dogs that are likely to produce deformed/handicapped pups that they will then sweep under the rug and "forget" about, then they are not more reputable than some idiot breeding his unproven aussie because she is "pretty"--maybe worse actually, because they know better.
     

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