Crossbreeding for Sport/Work/Companionship

[PWCorgi]

I'm 100% okay with it, as long as they are being responsible. I don't care if it's Doodles or Borderstaffies or whatever, just please be health testing and breeding to some kind of standard.

Main problem I have is people who don't know any better getting Doodles from Joe Schmoe who is charging $3,000 because he can get a dog pregnant.

May I let my dog stick his penis in your dog's vagina, just cause we can? Not good enough.

 

[sassafras]

I'm not saying shelter dogs can never make great pets. I'm saying every person's needs/wants can't be met by a random shelter dog - whether their dog's job is a sport or being a companion.

I'm not going to tell someone who wants a good companion that they have to settle for what's available at the local shelter because any dog will do and then turn around and tell someone who wants to play *sport of choice* that their reason, on the other hand, is good enough to buy a specific type of dog.

 

[Annabell]

Well around here most the dogs in rescues are pits, lab mixes, houndy things, or heeler mixes. What if none of those work for the person? What if their ideal dog is a cockapoo?

I guess then it's their problem. I think sometimes people need to be a little more flexible when looking for a dog. Heck, I wanted a sport-bred BC with insane amounts of energy, and I ended up with an ACD with a toy drive in the negatives. But I still love her and think she is awesome

(Oh and btw I would LOVE that in the shelters in my area. They are mostly small dogs around here).

 

[Annabell]

I'm not saying shelter dogs can never make great pets. I'm saying every person's needs/wants can't be met by a random shelter dog - whether their dog's job is a sport or being a companion.

I'm not going to tell someone who wants a good companion that they have to settle for what's available at the local shelter because any dog will do and then turn around and tell someone who wants to play *sport of choice* that their reason, on the other hand, is good enough to buy a specific type of dog.

You seen to be missing my point. I'm not saying people have to adopt a dog just because they want it for a companion and aren't' going to do sports with it. There are also breeders that breed companion dogs. I'm not one to say anyone has to do anything. It is just my opinion that there are dogs other than designer breeds that can fill the companion role perfectly.

 

[sassafras]

It is just my opinion that there are dogs other than designer breeds that can fill the companion role perfectly.

For you, maybe. Again, the companion bred crossbreeds wouldn't be so popular if there wasn't a niche for them. And I just don't get why it's ok to breed a cross for sport, then - aren't there enough dogs other than designer sport crosses that can fill that role perfectly?

 

[Annabell]

aren't there enough dogs other than designer sport crosses that can fill that role perfectly?

Yes, there are. I just think sport-bred crosses fill a role that is much more specific than companions dogs do. But honestly, to each their own.

 

[Ozfozz]

I don't have a problem with it personally, as long as the breeders are honest about what they're doing and are having the necessary clearances and temperament testing done.
I find in a lot of "doodle" or other designer cases, the prospective owners are mislead into thinking that they are getting something that's "rare" and worth thousands of dollars, when in reality the breeding cost a minimal amount of both money and effort.
The clientele of the sports mixes IMO tend to be more educated on what they're getting. But again, don't charge thousands if the litter hasn't had the work put in.


That said, I don't think I would ever purchase any sort of mix as a pup just because I like to have a general idea of how the pup will turn out as an adult. Both mentally and physically.
For the same reason, I wouldn't take a puppy from rescue or shelter, but have no problems taking on an adult dog.

When you start mixing breeds that have relatively little in common (Border/Jack, Doodles etc.) there's an entire spectrum of possible outcomes.
A friend of mine breeds sport mixes that are quite successful. But the one litter I am most familiar with has ended up with such a huge variation. There's one pup in the litter that I absolutely love, but none of the rest resemble her at all.

 

[xpaeanx]

Well around here most the dogs in rescues are pits, lab mixes, houndy things, or heeler mixes. What if none of those work for the person? What if their ideal dog is a cockapoo?

I guess then it's their problem. I think sometimes people need to be a little more flexible when looking for a dog. Heck, I wanted a sport-bred BC with insane amounts of energy, and I ended up with an ACD with a toy drive in the negatives. But I still love her and think she is awesome

(Oh and btw I would LOVE that in the shelters in my area. They are mostly small dogs around here).

I just.... What? You know those those dog owners everyone bitches about because their dogs are essentially yard ornaments that live in the backyard 24/7? Most of the time the culprit of this is that they just settled on a dog that wasn't what they wanted.

If you know you want specific qualities in a dog I think you should be allowed a fair chance at getting them. Living with a dog that is not what you were looking for can be a very miserable expierence for both the dog and the owner. I don't begrudge anyone who knows what they want in a dog and tries to find it, that's what helps keep your relationship with your dog a positive expierence. People should be getting dog based on qualities and characteristics they want, it's an average of a 15 year commitment, make the right choice for yourself , your family, and the dog! And this goes for all walks of life.

 

[Elrohwen]

I really don't care. It's more important to me that the parents have great temperaments and are health tested, but beyond that I don't care if they're mixed. I prefer that the breeder does something with their dogs, even just therapy work. It's less about the title and more about knowing that they have spent a lot of time working with the dog and know it's temperament in all sorts of situations.

I wish there were more responsible breeders of doodles because there is clearly a market for them, and it's being filled by a lot of shady breeders or people who don't know what they're doing and just breed their pets.

 

[Dekka]

I just.... What? You know those those dog owners everyone bitches about because their dogs are essentially yard ornaments that live in the backyard 24/7? Most of the time the culprit of this is that they just settled on a dog that wasn't what they wanted.

:hail:

We often pick a puppy or a dog to make a family member for the better part of a decade or two. And we (a collective we, I am ok with rehoming in various situations if its done for the benefit of the dog) tend to pressure people to keep this dog for its life even if it isn't a good match.

I know I don't love all dogs. There are MANY dogs out there I wouldn't want to live with. I really don't think people should settle. I don't think people should settle in any meaningful relationship.

 

[tucksmom]

I honestly don't care either. All breeds started off as mixed breeds. I just want dogs to come from a place where they are loved and well cared for-and I prefer the health testing be done as well. The only problem is, that it's hard to find a place like that...

 

[sassafras]

Every time this topic comes up it becomes clear to me that either you believe in your heart that being a good companion is a specific, definable job that requires specific traits that can be bred for, or you don't.

It's absolutely fascinating to me that intentionally choosing traits to play obstacle course intermittently is considered worthy of justifying cross breeding, but choosing to traits to live as a stable, mentally and physically sound dog who is biddable, has an off switch, and enjoys freely interacting with people and other pets in a household and neighborhood all day, every day for a lifetime isn't. But to each their own.

 

[release the hounds]

Every time this topic comes up it becomes clear to me that either you believe in your heart that being a good companion is a specific, definable job that requires specific traits that can be bred for, or you don't.

It's absolutely fascinating to me that intentionally choosing traits to play obstacle course intermittently is considered worthy of justifying cross breeding, but choosing to traits to live as a stable, mentally and physically sound dog who is biddable, has an off switch, and enjoys freely interacting with people and other pets in a household and neighborhood all day, every day for a lifetime isn't. But to each their own.

I don't think it's like that at all. I don't think finding a decent companion dog is difficult. I could go find a dog that fit my description of a companion dog, an fairly active, well tempered, medium sized dog today. and I wouldn't have to even look at a breeder breeding for companions.

To do a specific task well, i'm going to stack the deck in my favor.

anyway, i guess the difference to me is that I think most breeders are just breeding dogs. Nothing special, different, unique, outstanding, just dogs that I can find going anywhere and looking. That goes for "companion" breeders as well as the know-nothing "working and conformation" breeders that are better at marketing than making breeding decisions.

All those traits of being stable, mentally and physically sound dog who is biddable, has an off switch, and enjoys freely interacting with people and other pets in a household and neighborhood all day, every day for a lifetime are all traits you will find in my dogs. Ever single one I've ever had, the 2 I currently have included. plus a lot more inside them you don't find in your everyday dogs. Sure you can find them in other dogs, but not as consistently and rarely as balanced.

I guess for me, my criteria for a companion dog are size, 30-80lbs and even that isn't set in stone. I want a stable temperament and for it to be fairly active. I'd like perfect health too, but I don't care where your dog comes from, **** happens. You get a perfectly healthy dog and it tears and ACL or impales itself on a fence post and still costs you a lot in vet bills.

I don't understand the desire to have such strict criteria for something to be a companion. I really wouldn't care what mix it is, what breed it resembled, just a general fit in a pretty wide size range, a temperament that isn't all that rare and some energy that also isn't a rarity in dogs.

 

[SpaceMutt]

At least when I was living in NYC, the needs for a companion dog were extremely high. Dogs had to be:

Completely, 100% unreactive to ALL sounds and ALL dogs in extremely close quarters, and ok with being jostled by crowds every single day (try walking your dog in Manhattan if it is weird about kids bumping it, or other dogs getting too close...it's a nightmare, I did it as a job for awhile)

Easy enough to train that the average owner could get it nicely LLW very quickly, since that's what had to happen for all potty walks and 99% of daily exercise

Basically silent, finding and keeping an apartment there is no joke

Easy and quick to potty train

Absolutely no SA, most households were dual income and frequently both parties worked loooong hours

If the owner wants another animal, has to be comfortable living with other animals in what are frequently spaces little bigger than a suburban kitchen

A fair number of people also wanted a dog who could hold its own on country trips to extended family houses, and they didn't want dogs with breathing issues (no Pekes or pugs or Bulldogs, which I think is pretty fair)

So, just don't get a dog, is what I've heard said in regard to that...but they're going to do it. I saw a LOT of companion-bred mixes when I lived there and their owners were very happy. It was a niche that needed filled, and I admit that even as someone who's not that into the doodle craze (mainly because I don't think pure poodles get enough love).

 

[frostfell]

I do it, and I plan to do it even more in the future, so I can hardly be against it. I do feel like it needs to be done carefully, same as purebred breedings, but I dont feel like its any different in that its better or worse, or more or less care must be taken, and it may even be better because >low COI

I would absolutely buy from people who do sport or pet mixes, provided they also passed my basic standards of breeders

we DO need a better **** name for them than "purposebred mixes" its too mouthy

Edited to add:
I am VERY firmly on the side that Companionship is absolutely a working task, and that a dog needs to be bred for these specialized skills in the same way a herding or pointing dog is. Meshing seamlessly into a world designed by and for a species of an entirely different genus is a very unnatural and specialized requirement. Like SpaceMutt said above, being amiable, moderately smart, confident and completely unfazed by literally EVERYTHING, easygoing in nature, but at the same time loving and friendly, without being overly enthusiastic, and also willing to be modivated, without being too drivey, all of these things are incredibly specific and specialized traits. and the fact that in a world designed for, and by, humans, there is nearly zero wiggle room for "annoying" or deviant traits, it means that these highly specialized and specific traits need a near 100% genetically-ensured (word i cant think of) rate. Oh and the dog also needs to be physically tough and healthy, because ordinary working people dont have time for chronic dog ailements. You DONT get these things by chance, and very few current purebreds are up to snuff, as we are just barely out of the agricultural revolution and most breeds retain pesky traces of working drives and abilities.

the world is becoming more and more industrialized, and there is less and less sympathy for deviancy and less time for dogs that require humans rearrange their entire lives to suit. hardcore working or sport people that dont mind doing this are the minority and denying it doesnt make it go away. more and more in the future, the pet dog is going to dominate, and they need to be GOOD pets, which means selective breeding. and if that also means crossbreeding, then so be it.

sorry for the novel. feel strongly, i do.

 

[Sekah]

I'm not sure where my next dog will come from, but it could very well be from a sport mix litter. I've already chatted with a woman who has bred a very nice little dog (I think she's a staffy/terrier/collie/etc mix) and expressed interest in getting a puppy from her once she matures, gets health tested and competes more. It'd be dependent on who the sire will be, but I definitely am considering it. I'm so drawn to her since she's an absolute dynamite sport dog, but she also has the most pleasant temperament I've seen in just about any dog. It doesn't hurt that she's gorgeous too.

So, not against it. I just want to see breeders breeding carefully and conscientiously. Temperament is still paramount, but I think you can get performance without compromising on personality.

 

[FransterDoo]

You'll pry my Borderstaffy from my cold dead hands!



Of course it took me YEARS to find a litter or two that I liked enough (and felt the people breeding the litter were in line with my breeding ethics) to put a deposit on but that's a whole different story.

 

[Locke]

I just don't care WHAT people are breeding anymore. I care HOW they're breeding them.

With each passing year, I'm getting more and more jaded about (on a good day) or disgusted by (on a bad day) what we are doing to dogs by closing stud books and putting an arbitrary written standard on a higher pedestal than the living creatures they are meant to define.


ETA: I've also gone around and around so much on the "breeding dogs 'just' for companionship" merry-go-round that I don't think I can do it again other than to say it's as valid a job as any other job and no, I don't agree that any old random dog can necessarily do it well.

My thoughts and feelings exactly.

Most dog owners have dogs as companions, and only companions. Breeding for a stable temperament is just as important as breeding for herding/retrieving/etc.
As long as health testing is done, dogs are kept clean, and happy, and the puppies go to loving families, I don't care if they are mixed breeds or not.

 

[frostfell]

Does anyone here follow Pedigree Dogs Exposed, either the blog or the FB group? its all VERY pro-open stud books, and Im learning a TON about crossing for good reasons. theres a guy with malamute x wolfhounds, some others with lurchers, lots of lurchers, and "farm collies" and various other deliberate crosses. absolutely priceless, the learning you get from these people

 

[sassafras]

I don't understand the desire to have such strict criteria for something to be a companion.

You don't understand it because you don't personally have strict criteria for companionship.

Are you an 80 year old woman who flies six times a year and wants to bring her dog literally everywhere with her, where it will be expected to at worst tolerate and at best enjoy the attention of everyone from grandchildren to the hairdresser, but wants minimal grooming, healthy knees, no brachycephalics, and no more than 20 pounds, that she wants to raise from a puppy?

Are you a family with three kids under 12 years old who spend some weekends camping and hiking and other weekends consumed by kid's activities, so the dog needs to be able to adapt easily to varying activity levels, is biddable enough for all family members to work with, can attend softball/soccer/whatever games, and has good odds of having good hips and elbows?

I truly don't understand why getting a cross bred companion for those criteria is any different than getting a cross bred sports dog. "Just" pet owners have every right to be as choosy about exactly where their dogs are coming from as anyone else, I don't like the "just go to the shelter!" mantra because some people do not like the unknowns that are inherent in getting a dog whose breed you might not even have a clue about.

The point I will concede is that there aren't nearly enough breeders doing cross breeding for companionship thoughtfully. But up here we have some doodle breeders who aren't just slapping random dogs together and their dogs are amazing and lovely, I would get one in a heartbeat if I were looking for an all around good family dog without any other specific purpose in mind.