Cropped/Docked or Natural?

[Sekah]

Aussies are the breed for me. And I'm finding myself more and more invested in sports. And the more I get into sports the more I question whether I'm comfortable with Cohen having a docked tail, and removed front dewclaws. She took a spill on Sunday at a match trying to take a tight turn -- I wonder if she wouldn't have fallen if she was "natural". Who knows?

It's frustrating since I felt like I was doing everything right when I purchased Cohen -- now I'm not sure if I would do everything by the book if I were to do it all over again.

I completely understand people with docked animals feeling defensive about their pets. I feel similarly. But I also have all these lingering doubts about whether it was appropriate for my pet.

 

[milos_mommy]

I want to say a few things:

1. Cropping and docking isn't something created by and or for conformation showing. It's not traditionally for purely aesthetic purposes, it traditionally had physical benefits for the dogs and was necessary for the job they did and their safety.

2. You can absolutely think a dog is gorgeous, but not think their crop or dock is not attractive. The same way I see plenty of dogs and think they're beautiful, but wow their ears look ridiculous, or I think the pigment around their eyes is completely hideous, or I don't particularly like their coat color. I don't think it's "lying" to say a dog is beautiful but then turn around and say you think cropping is ugly (even though I think plenty of crop jobs looks great).

Aesthetically, I don't have a strong preference either way...I usually prefer dobes to be cropped, and most other breeds I could really care less/it depends on the specific dog/whatever.

I'm for the most part against cropping/docking dogs that are going to specifically be pets, but I am not against it's legality or working dogs having it done at all. As far as show dogs, I'm glad more venues are allowing both options, and I doubt I'd personally have it done unless my dog was going to work (even if I was just doing PP sport or wanted a guard dog or something, I would probably still crop).

I'm also against circumcision (personally...i don't have a problem if other people do it for religious reasons but I think people need to be more educated on it past "the doctor said I should").

 

[Taqroy]

I'm sorry but the whole "dogs with cropped ears/docked tails can't properly communicate" is one of the silliest arguments against cropping/docking. Sako has a WIDE range of motion with his ears and communicates just fine how he's "feeling".. I always say that the people who say they can't obviously haven't watched a dog that's cropped interact with other dogs or people. And docking.. my friends Rottie wags his entire back end when he's happy, I'd say that's quite easily visible to other dogs and people!

The idea that copping and docking makes dogs less expressive is the most ridiculous misconception ever. Upright ears are incredibly alert and can zero in on sounds better than drop ears. The cone of hearing is much better. The tiniest nuances of signals...a little flick here, a little tilt there are so apparent to those who see. And those nubby tails are so telling.

I don't know about cropping but I can tell you that my girls' nubs DO affect their communication. Especially for Mu. And it makes it MUCH harder for me to read her body language when she's meeting other dogs because she is not a dog that wags her whole back end (except for when she's greeting me - lol). I honestly think that the quick escalating situations between them that end in fights could be avoided if one or both of them had tails. /shrug. I'm sure it's different from dog to dog though and I bet it depends on how much of a nub they have too. The girls only have about 2 inches or so of tail.

I don't know how I feel about cropping and docking. I like the look of show crops on danes and dobes but I feel bad for the puppies. So yeah, mixed feelings. Lol.

 

[kady05]

I don't know about cropping but I can tell you that my girls' nubs DO affect their communication. Especially for Mu. And it makes it MUCH harder for me to read her body language when she's meeting other dogs because she is not a dog that wags her whole back end (except for when she's greeting me - lol). I honestly think that the quick escalating situations between them that end in fights could be avoided if one or both of them had tails. /shrug. I'm sure it's different from dog to dog though and I bet it depends on how much of a nub they have too. The girls only have about 2 inches or so of tail.

Ever watched dogs fighting (like a real dog fight, not a little squabble)? 75% of the time, those tails are wagging up a storm while they're going at each other.. so, a tail wagging doesn't always = happy dog. So I highly doubt that if two dogs are about to fight that a tail is going to make much difference. When I'm watching two dogs meet each other for the first time, I don't even pay much attention to the tail; I've watched dogs meet each other where one was wagging away and 1/2 second later went after the other dog.

 

[Zoom]

There are plenty of breeds with that natural bobtail gene to them and they all seem to get around just fine. Same with those dogs who have cropped ears. Unless it's like a CO/CAO crop, there is still plenty of range of motion in cropped ears; not all that much different from the naturally pricked eared breeds.

I find that the brachy breeds (Boston, Boxer, Bulldog etc) have a bigger issue with communication because the face folds apparently mimic a rude expression or something. At any rate, I always had a bigger issue with those dogs starting/getting into fights in daycare and it typically seemed to be a mixed signals type of issue.

 

[Renee750il]

Ever watched dogs fighting (like a real dog fight, not a little squabble)? 75% of the time, those tails are wagging up a storm while they're going at each other.. so, a tail wagging doesn't always = happy dog. So I highly doubt that if two dogs are about to fight that a tail is going to make much difference. When I'm watching two dogs meet each other for the first time, I don't even pay much attention to the tail; I've watched dogs meet each other where one was wagging away and 1/2 second later went after the other dog.

I've found it's not so much the wag as the position. I can read a lot from how my dogs are carrying their tails, usually.

Kharma can be quite deceptive. She can make her tail LIE. And her ears. And her whole body, for that matter. There are times when I just have to rely on the bond between us to be able to read her. Neither one of us gets much over on the other anymore, lol.

 

[smkie]

It is a different wag, stiff, and back and forth without sway for a fight. It is one of the signs to watch for like big eyes (full blown pupils) and stance.

A happy wag is side to side, or round and round with ease and a body that wiggles, not stiff like you would think a rattle snake would "wag".

I cant' imagine communicating with a dog that doesn't have a tail. I have had a docked dog, done before I had any say about it. I wouldn't want another.

 

[Zoom]

Sawyer has a NBT and I can read him just fine. I don't have any issue telling exactly what he's feeling towards me, other people or other dogs.

Like I said, I've got a bigger issue with the squishy faced dogs, especially if there's a bunch of hair (e.g. Lhasas).

 

[Taqroy]

Ever watched dogs fighting (like a real dog fight, not a little squabble)? 75% of the time, those tails are wagging up a storm while they're going at each other.. so, a tail wagging doesn't always = happy dog. So I highly doubt that if two dogs are about to fight that a tail is going to make much difference. When I'm watching two dogs meet each other for the first time, I don't even pay much attention to the tail; I've watched dogs meet each other where one was wagging away and 1/2 second later went after the other dog.

What everyone else said about the tails lol. I've had a foster who did NOT like Murphy at all. And he would wag the entire time Murphy was around but his tail was stiff and up, not loose and relaxed. Whereas Murphy's was down and wagging in long sweeps side to side while he threw all kinds of calming signals at the foster. Had I known more about body language they wouldn't have gotten in the gigantic fight they did and we would still foster. So yeah, in my experience the tail is REALLY helpful and I can't imagine that having that extra information wouldn't be helpful in our specific situation. Like I said though, I'm sure it depends on the dog and the situation.

 

[Dizzy]

Natural. I've LOVED seeing doggy tails after the docking ban. Brilliant

 

[Taqroy]

Sawyer has a NBT and I can read him just fine. I don't have any issue telling exactly what he's feeling towards me, other people or other dogs.

Like I said, I've got a bigger issue with the squishy faced dogs, especially if there's a bunch of hair (e.g. Lhasas).

I think it depends a lot on the dog. I can read Tipper easier than I can read Mu. And Mu's behavior before we have a fight is really similar to the way she instigates play but more intense. So it really comes down to how closely I'm paying attention and what everyone else is doing b/c in about half the fights they've had they're responding to something weird in the environment. I dunno. I'm still pretty sucky at reading body language too so someone with more experience probably wouldn't have the same issues.

That's interesting about squish faced dogs....I never really considered that but it makes sense.

 

[Dekka]

I cant' imagine communicating with a dog that doesn't have a tail. I have had a docked dog, done before I had any say about it. I wouldn't want another.

Depends on your dog, and how short the dock is. JRTs are very clear about what they are feeling, even though their tails are short. That whole body wiggle is the same with or with out tail.

Also not all dogs have that big side to side slow happy wag, even with full tails. To me that seems more of a breed thing, than a tail thing. Even with the few full tailed JRTs I have seen they don't often do that. I think Kat would, but I can see the same movement easily in her shorter tail.

I don't think you would have as many issues reading a dog with a short/or nubby tail as you might think. Some dogs are hard to read, regardless. My dogs are VERY clear lol.

 

[Dizzy]

Well, Sako didn't have a cone on his head

But in all seriousness, do you really think that dogs that are cropped and/or docked lose their "beauty" and are ugly? I know everyone has different preferences, but I'm just curious because of your choice of words.

I prefer the look of your other two pups if I'm being 100% truthful. Sako is cute, but the ears look abnormal to me. They look too small for his head.

I've seen some hella ugly dogs purely because crops. Not Sako

 

[BrindeyPug]

I prefer the look of your other two pups if I'm being 100% truthful. Sako is cute, but the ears look abnormal to me. They look too small for his head.

I agree with you.

 

[kady05]

I prefer the look of your other two pups if I'm being 100% truthful. Sako is cute, but the ears look abnormal to me. They look too small for his head.

I've seen some hella ugly dogs purely because crops. Not Sako

So wait. His ears are abnormal and too small for his head.. but then the next sentence you say you've seen ugly dogs because of crops, but not him? Not sure how he could be pretty with ears that are abnormal and too small LOL. So.. which is it?

I agree with you.

Whee.. let's turn this into a bash Sako thread!

 

[BrindeyPug]

So wait. His ears are abnormal and too small for his head.. but then the next sentence you say you've seen ugly dogs because of crops, but not him? Not sure how he could be pretty with ears that are abnormal and too small LOL. So.. which is it?



Whee.. let's turn this into a bash Sako thread!

It's just an honest opinion. He really doesn't look that good with cropped ears. I would have never mentioned it if it already wasn't, but being the opinion was out, ding ding!

 

[HayleyMarie]

Frankly, I have to say it despends on the dog if you can read them harder or not. Emme is very, very easy to read and she has a short nub of a tail

 

[HayleyMarie]

It's just an honest opinion. He really doesn't look that good with cropped ears. I would have never mentioned it if it already wasn't, but being the opinion was out, ding ding!

Ok Sako is not my dog, but I find that very, very rude. I think Sako looks like a handsom devil.

 

[Dizzy]

So wait. His ears are abnormal and too small for his head.. but then the next sentence you say you've seen ugly dogs because of crops, but not him? Not sure how he could be pretty with ears that are abnormal and too small LOL. So.. which is it?



Whee.. let's turn this into a bash Sako thread!

I think he's cute, I don't like his ears. I think my dogs head is too big, but she's perfect to my eyes. Simple

I like my boyfriend, even though he's a bit wonky and has abnormal amounts of nipples sexy as F*** , just an acquired taste

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

It's just an honest opinion. He really doesn't look that good with cropped ears. I would have never mentioned it if it already wasn't, but being the opinion was out, ding ding!

I love the admittance of cowardice behavior. "Since someone said it before me I now have the back up power to say how I really feel."