Crap. Think I did something terrible.

[BullMastiffMama]

In agility class last night, Capone exited the tunnel and went directly to insert his nose into Shorty's butt. (Shorty is a young Afghan Hound, and Capone is quite infatuated with her.) After a 'HEY!' and being ignored, I yanked his ear.

*GASP!*

Yep, that's right. I did. It surprised him, and he yelped. Our trainer asked "Did *that* really hurt him?" (She's seen him take dives off the dogwalk and not give a crap.) To which I replied, "Yeah, I hurt his feelings is what I hurt." I'm socially retarded and don't really pay attention to people's reactions and such, but was later informed that I got a 'look.' (Not sure if this was from trainer, class-mate veterinarian, or other spectators.)

This got me to thinking. If I had been a spectator, what would I have thought?? I mean, these people don't know that Capone's ears aren't particularly sensitive - that I didn't hurt him. They have no way of knowing that ear yanking, tail tugging, toe fur tickling, and rump pinching are ways to incite play with him. Not to say that I was attempting to play with him, but I yanked about half as hard as I would have if we had been playing. It got his attention when the sharp vocalization did not.

I was approaching from his right side. Truthfully, if I'd have approached from his rear, I would have pinched his rump or where his belly tucks up and really spooked him.


Also, I was unaware of this as well, but I got a 'look' when I faux-spanked him. (Brought his traffic lead around swiftly, stopped short, and either barely touched his butt or didn't touch at all - I couldn't tell.)

So.... I'm posting this for a couple reasons:

Do you think they think I'm abusive?

Do you?

Do you think I made a bad choice or maybe have a suggestion for what I should've done?

Should I give two poops about what they think?

Should I address it or let the rumor mill go?



My, how horrified everyone would be if they saw us rough-housing! I faux kick and punch, bodyslam, face-chew, tease, etc. It's not how I interact with all dogs, and not with Cassius (new puppy) - but it's what works for me with Capone. Who cares? I don't think he'd continue to play if he disliked it or it hurt him.

How ridiculous would it be if I'm worried about little to nothing and these 'looks' weren't what they were trumped up to be... blah. Oh well.

On the plus side, Capone decided he would weave last night. We tried three or four times, and he really just wasn't getting it well, so we moved on to something else. He became quite tired later on in class and after exiting a tunnel, followed on my left and just as I turned, I looked to see where he was and he was going through the weave poles!!! I took him through them another five or six times at the end of class, just to reinforce how very awesome it was. I guess I just had to wait for him to get good and ready to do it.














Okay - Ready???? DISCUSS. opcorn:

Oh, and a small note: Be honest- I do genuinely appreciate an objective view on things. You'd really have a hard time hurting my feelings, anyway.

 

[therottweiler]

That sounds pretty reasonable. Everyone has a different way of handling their dogs based on how they have been brought up. You should continue doing it as long as you know he is not being hurt, doesn't matter to me what a spectator thinks.

 

[Zoom]

I think if I was a casual by-stander, I probably would have been shooting you looks as well. Ear yanks and leash spanks are not something I would tolerate out of someone in my obedience class. Even if you do rough-house when at home and playing, class is not the time to do those things.

Why couldn't you have just led him away from the Afghan by his collar instead of yanking on his ear? Why did you feel the need to "spank" him in class? If you were in my class, I would have pulled you aside at the end and had a discussion.

I know bullmastiff's can be hard-headed but I've never found that spooking or smacking did much to change that, other than to make them even more "deaf" to certain things.

 

[BullMastiffMama]

Why couldn't you have just led him away from the Afghan by his collar instead of yanking on his ear? Why did you feel the need to "spank" him in class? If you were in my class, I would have pulled you aside at the end and had a discussion.

Thanks, Zoom. I really appreciate the feedback.

Not in attempt to excuse my actions, but for explanation:

His head was actually kind of inbetween Shorty's legs. I really did not want to go for his collar. I didn't have a clear line of sight to it and didn't want to inadvertently pull Shorty's hair. I didn't get it on the first grab, I'm fairly certain he would have began the keep away game.
It was impulsive. I felt that he was exhibiting pre-mount behavior (I've seen a bit of this from him lately, with Cassius at home).

Also, about the spanking in class. It was not a reprimand - I was trying to keep him engaged with me and 'pepped up' (he tires a bit quickly in agility... it's an hour long and he's a big boy) without doing our parlor trick routine. Short games are an attempt to maintain his focus. It is a game for us, as tug is for others. Shorty was headed for the tunnel bit of her sequence, and I wanted him fully engaged with me and what we were doing as opposed to the sounds of the tunnel, which are super-stimulating for him.

 

[BullMastiffMama]

Thought I'd add - thinking back on it, it was quite impulsive, and it went pretty quickly. I know I really wanted him exiting Shorty's butt, and very quickly dismissed the idea of going for his collar. Trying to remember why now.... I know I couldn't see it, didn't want to grab blindly, and now I wonder now if I would have been able to move him if I'd been able to grab his collar without bumping Shorty and her owner around. I would have had to pull straight back, as his head was buried in Shorty.

Probably should have done something different.

 

[bubbatd]

President Johnson sure got his flack from lifting his beagle by the ears !! Not sure if it was Him or Her !

 

[Zoom]

I guess I'm confused...you could see his ears well enough to grab on to those, but not his collar, which I'm assuming would have been closer to being hair free than his ears? I'm not trying to rag on you, just how I'm picturing things.

 

[wcladymacbeth]

Capone sounds like my Caesar He *likes* to be whacked about and knocked around, and it gets him wanting to play too. That's how I got him to want to play fetch - I had to hit him with the frisbee and then toss it LOL. But I don't go to classes with him... not sure if I would do that stuff in a class, but it would probably be hard to break certain habits with him just because we were in a different environment

 

[BullMastiffMama]

Oh -- no. I'm sorry, I looked back on the initial post and see now that it's clear as mud. I think his head was a bit further than how the description reads.

His head was between her rear legs.
I give him a 'HEY' - usually gets the job done.
He ignores it and moves further up underneath Shorty,(He has 'slunk down' in order to plant his head this low) his head turned a bit to sniff 'girl stuff' more to the left. (tilt your head to your right shoulder - see what I mean?)
I am looking at this from the right side of the dogs and can see his right ear hanging exposed from just in front of Shorty's right rear leg.

Sorry, I'm not terribly articulate today, it would seem.

 

[Zoom]

LOL it's ok, join the club!

yeah, I get Sawyer riled up by grabbing onto his ruff and stuff, but I don't usually do it in a class, because then he gets stupidly loud and we get looks from that. :lol-sign:

 

[Saeleofu]

If a trainer pulled me aside for roughhousing with my dog in class to keep his attention (and a fake-spank is barely roughhousing), I'd drop the class and take my money elsewhere.

Everyone has had a dog yelp at them unexpectedly, even if it's just stepping on a paw by accident. Of course people shoot your dirty looks. You move on.

I do flick Gavroche's ear when he is focused on something and ignores my "look" command. It redirects his attention, and once it's redirected we can go back to what we were doing. It doesn't hurt him. I think in your case the yelp was more surprise than discomfort.

You probably would have had more dirty looks if you had let him continue to mount her!

 

[SisMorphine]

I constantly get looks simply by my rough handling of Teeny (I do a lot of muzzle grabs and face slaps, out of love, and she adores it). And with how much of a **** DRAMA QUEEN Isis is, I expect to get looks in the future for the all out, scream-fest roll on the floor hissy fit the first time I hurt her feelings in public (and OH MAN is she good at that!). Teeny also screams at me, and I scream back, and people think that she's loading up to attack me (when instead it's a friendly play of douchebaggery). I just have to constantly keep myself in check when I'm in public with my dogs. Some people are FAR more sensitive to physical play with dogs, especially if their dogs tend to be more sensitive (physically) than the breed you own.

 

[Criosphynx]

personally I tone it down in public to avoid just the situation you describe...


perhaps you surprised him a bit?

 

[mrose_s]

I don't think it sounds abusive. I'm quiet rough with Buster. Hell, one of our favourite games is where I flip him on his back, sit on him, hold him down by his neck skin and blow in his face. Sounds awful but it is a game.
I also love to sneak up on him and smackhim all over the place and then run away.lol

I also went to stay with a friend for a couple of months, he has a gorgeous big Dane mix girl who he picks on mercilessly. He torments the crap out of her, pulls her ears, her tail, her legs etc. At first I thought he was being too rough with her but she seems to love it, she absolutly adores him so he's doing something right. lol

 

[Doberluv]

It just depends. If he wasn't startled or caused pain and knew you were playing around like you always do, then it's not abuse. It's reinforcement for sticking his nose in the other dog's rear so he may just want to do that again even more than ever because it means not only will he get a chance to sniff her butt, but in addition, you'll play with him a really fun game.:rofl1: If it were to catch him off guard and spook or startle him, it could elicit a bite from already being a little extra intense or energized, just from being around the other dog. In other words, IMO, in that context where it wasn't really play time, it probably would have been more effective to tell him to "leave it" if he knows that trick or simply called him over to you or helped him with the leash.

As far as the dirty looks from people, if he wasn't shut down by that, spooked or cowed, and was having a fun time with the rough housing play from you, then they don't read body language very well and you shouldn't care what they think. Slapping, shoving, knocking a dog around doesn't mean the same thing in every context. Sure, some dogs like to play rough and if it's obvious to them that you're playing that's one thing. If it's done in anger or the dog doesn't recognize it as play, that's mistreatment.

 

[corgipower]

It just depends. If he wasn't startled or caused pain and knew you were playing around like you always do, then it's not abuse. It's reinforcement for sticking his nose in the other dog's rear so he may just want to do that again even more than ever because it means not only will he get a chance to sniff her butt, but in addition, you'll play with him a really fun game.:rofl1: If it were to catch him off guard and spook or startle him, it could elicit a bite from already being a little extra intense or energized, just from being around the other dog. In other words, IMO, in that context where it wasn't really play time, it probably would have been more effective to tell him to "leave it" if he knows that trick or simply called him over to you or helped him with the leash.

I agree.

As for the looks, I got quite a few looks and stares and glares when Ares yelped at a trial. We were walking out of the ring and I accidentally stepped on his toe. He hollered. Every head turned towards us. Most people quickly understood what had happened and I and they laughed it off. A few people continued to glare for some time afterwards. I ignored them and went about my business.

 

[colliewog]

I think you're fine. I think others probably thought you were a mean, only because he made noise. If he were silent and didn't react to what you did (flinch, etc.) I don't think anyone would care.

 

[Zoom]

Oh I'm not saying it was abuse, but just reading the written account, it sounds kind of bad. I can usually tell in person what the person "means" by ear grabs, fake spanks, etc. Like I said, I rough house and crap with Sawyer all the time, I've had people think he was attacking me by how he barks and bounces and such.

But all we have to go on right now is the written account, by which I would have pulled someone aside.

 

[adojrts]

If you are considering competing in agility you may want to think of this. Most agility associations take a strong stand on what they 'think' may be rough handling. Therefore I discourage my students playing to rough or doing something that maybe taken wrong at a trial when they are training. If the handler isn't in the habit of doing such things in the agility ring for training, they are not likely to do it at a trial.

Grabbing your dogs ear, whether in play,, if they are use to it or not and regardless of whether it caused pain/fear or not, would not be viewed in a good light at the agility trials that I attend.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

I startled Cider accidentally in the ring once. She is a drama queen at the best of times. She got up out of her stay and I tapped her on the bum with a finger. She screamed and we got booted out of the ring. 5 judges saw it happen along with 100 or so competitors. I was so upset about it I ended up crying as people thought I'd harmed her.

You can be removed no questions asked for what people perceive.. Took a year to want to trial under that judge again. We did in august and got the final Q to a title we've been chasing a long time. I ended up telling her how I had felt and it was good, cleared the air but I ended up feeling terrible for such a long time after that.