Confession of guilt

[Semaru]

You shouldn't punish a dog for what it has already done since it wouldn't be able to connect the 'crime' with the punishment. I've read this countless of times and try to tell other dog owners this. But they'll tell me that punishment does work. "Dogs aren't as dumb as you think. They do know" someone told me.

Instead, I've fenced off 1/2 of my apartment to myself and the other 1/2 for them to roam freely. But I'd come home after work to find the fence is breached or knocked over and something's damaged or the area is poo-ed on. I've tried spraying dog repellent but it didn't work. So finally I took their advice and scolded Jessica, presenting the chewed up cable (for charging my cell phone) and scolding her for biting it.

Seemed no trouble for a few days, until yesterday when I suddenly had the stupid idea to leave the fence slightly ajar to test whether they got the point of not coming over. I came home and found poo and pee there, I didn't scold them and just cleaned it up. But I went nuts when I found the second cell phone cable chewed, I've only had it replaced for a week and I've just emptied my wallet that night on treats which I hope to use when I start clicker training them.

I looked at Jessica, she saw me with the cable in my hands and started trembling and I knew what they said was right. They DO know what you're scolding them for, and yet she did it again. In my rage, I chucked the charger beside her (I wasn't aiming for her, I was just scaring her) "Haven't I told you not to chew on wires?!"

She hid trembling behind Emily (the other dog). I stuffed the cables at her face like I did the last time "Go on, bite it! Isnt that what you like to do? Look at me when I'm talking to you" I said, pulling away the table so eye contact can be maintained.

Jessica tried to escape but I caught her and pulled her back "I'm not finished yet!" Jessica tried an unsuccessful bite on my hand and stayed still, trembling, and I noticed she's just peed all over my foot in fear. I wasn't angry at all for this, in fact I started feeling remorse and just told her "This is the second one you've destroyed in a week, these things are expensive, don't bite any more wires OK?" I let go, she ran away from me and Emily and trembled in a corner. I stayed and reassured Emily she's OK and not the one in trouble.

Burdened with guilt I went to sleep early (it dawned on me I was the one who left the gate open for her to commit the biting), waking up this morning to find Jessica is treating me like usual (with the normal caution you'd expect of a paranoid dog). Trying to make up for what I did, I stuffed the two of them silly with a wide variety of treats.

I've commited all the stuff I usually condemn others for. I'm a terrible dog owner I know. My girlfriend said "You don't seem any happier after you've had them" It's true that everyday I come home to find what else Jessica's destroyed, what more to write off. It's true other people can enjoy pets who like being pet on, Jessica shys away when touched from behind and above. Other people enjoy walking their dogs, mine won't budge when pulled on a leash, bite through bags and will let all hell loose when being carried. Can't help but admit that Jessica and I might be a big mismatch, feel really bad and guilty *Sigh*

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

Are you positive she did it?

 

[mrose_s]

thats ok. some people and some aniamls dont mix. if you would like to get closer to her then try this. just lye down with her. i dont it with my pets all the time. if she is seeing you as an overly dominant leader then getting down to her level and just letting her come to you such cant hurt. i do it with my dogs all the time.

also, dont feel too bad about what you did. atleast the first time you yelled it was accepatble in my eyes. I know dogs are smart and i really do think they can tell when they have done something wrong. They never get the same guilty look on their face as when you hold up soemthing they have wrecked.

how much time do they spend in "their" side of the apartment. if it is most of the time and you spend little time in their side then maybe she id getting out to find you or is bored. How old is she? a puppy? they will act up.

But remember dog owning is hard soemtimes but always orth it. i bet you have had some good times.

the walking problem, is it on her leash? or just outside? or both?

 

[soft pawz]

I've fenced off 1/2 of my apartment to myself and the other 1/2 for them to roam freely. *

they should learn what is ok to play with and what isnt. therfor they need to be in contact with those things at times when you can SUPERVISE them so you can say NO when they touch something they shouldnt and praise them right away when they listen to the no.

I looked at Jessica, she saw me with the cable in my hands and started trembling and I knew what they said was right. They DO know what you're scolding them for, and yet she did it again. *

sorry but i think you are wrong. sho doesnt know. and she for sure doesnt know she is not suppose to CHEW it. of course she trembles, she can feel your anger plus you are holding the cable again, the same thing you held last time you scolded her. of course she is gonna tremble, but does that mean she knows what you want from her?? NO. of course not.
and i really doubt that its a good idea to try to scare her and throw things at her and yell if she is a really timid dog in the first place.

dont get me wrong i dont wanna preach. and what happened happened so you should stop feeling bad about it and try to do it better next time.
believe me it is normal to be frustrated at your dog at times. everybody is.
nobody can tell me they have nothing but fun with their dog and everything is always perfect. it is normal to feel like you did.

dogs are so much fun but they for sure are a lot of work to, dont give up.
you got to find a postiv training for your dogs that work for them. EVERY problem can be solved with enaugh effort and consistence.

and please dont let anything or anyone convince you that dogs KNOW when you scold them just because they seem to have a guilty look on their face.
dogs dont feel guilt. just as they dont do anything just to be mean. thats not in a dogs nature.

Jessica tried an unsuccessful bite on my hand and stayed still, trembling, and I noticed she's just peed all over my foot in fear......
*

like i said earlier just because a dog trembles and is scared when it feels your anger doesnt mean that he has an idea what it is about!!!

I'm a terrible dog owner I know. *

no you are not. everybody struggles sometimes. nobody does everything right 100% and owning a dog can be really challenging.
dont put yourself down just because of one incidence. try your best, find other training methods, stay positiv.

Jessica shys away when touched from behind and above. Other people enjoy walking their dogs, mine won't budge when pulled on a leash, bite through bags and will let all hell loose when being carried. Can't help but admit that Jessica and I might be a big mismatch, feel really bad and guilty *Sigh*

you can work through this. i dont belive in mismatches. what if you had a child. would you give that away too when it gets difficult? of course not, nobody would. but with dogs people give up so fast.
there is a training method for EVERY bad behaviour.
is it easy? NO
is it a lot of work? yes
is it worth it? defintaly

if you are not up to working with your dog then get a stuffed animal.....
if you are then you might be surprise what good pets your dogs make and how much love they can give.

lots of people have gone through this so dont feel bad, i know you can work it out!!!
your dogs are worth it!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

My story of the misguided concept of punishment:

I originally thought that punishment for "bad" behaviors was the way to go. I had a big male shepherd who was a garbage hound. If I left him in the house (even just long enough so I could go out and feed the horses) he'd get into the garbage. I'd come in, find the garbage all over the floor and I'd drag him over to scold him and even swat him at times.

I could come in the house and know if the garbage was on the floor because Dawson would show it in every inch of his being. His head would be down, ears back, tail lowered - the epitome of "guilt". I was sure he knew exactly what he was doing and that it was wrong.

I moved into a large shop with an apartment. The dogs had free run of the shop area most of the time, and I had kennels and beds in one area. At the time, I had a younger shepherd - she was less than a year old. Dawson had diarrhea one day and I tethered him near his kennel so he wouldn't spread poop all over the shop. I went outside to get some things done and when I came in, the garbage bags that had been sitting across the shop were torn open and garbage was strewn everywhere. The younger shepherd came running to me happily, oblivious to the fact that she had just made a huge mess of the garbage.

And then I turned and looked at Dawson, still tied to his kennel. He was cowering on the floor, showing every sign of complete guilt. But there was no way he could have gotten into the garbage - he was not able to get anywhere near it.

This is when I realized what I had done to my dog. I had taught him to fear me when there was garbage on the floor. It had nothing to do with the actual act of getting into the garbage. He knew that when there was garbage on the floor, I was going to punish him. In this case, he hadn't done anything wrong and yet if I were to base things on his body language I would have to believe that he were guilty.

I felt so bad. My unfair actions to him had set him up to be absolutely miserable.

The reality of things is that it was MY fault he had gotten in the garbage all those times. I had not maintained things in a way that kept the garbage out of his reach. I'm the human - supposed to be the smarter species - and yet I wasn't doing the smart thing and keeping temptation out of his way. I wouldn't leave tempting things on a coffee table and then turn a 2 year old child loose in the room with no supervision. And yet I did that with my dog, an animal that only reaches the mental level of about a 2 year old human.

Our interactions with our dogs is a constant learning experience. We all make mistakes - the key to it is to learn from those mistakes and do better the next time. Dogs don't understand the human concept of "guilt" and yet so many insist they do. It's up to us to explain to them in kind and loving ways that there are behaviors that we accept and there are behaviors that we don't accept. And it's up to us to provide them a safe environment free of real tempting things that set them up to "fail".

Semaru, you may need to step back and assess your relationship with your dog. Look deeply at all the things you like about her. Think about those things that are problems for you and consider ways to deal with them. It may be that use of a crate or an exercise pen may help tremendously. Keeping Jasmine from getting to things that she can destroy as you work through this will make life with her so much easier. It's hard to deal with a dog when you're fretting over the loss of an item .. but always keep in mind that dogs are living feeling animals, and an inanimate object is just a replaceable piece of property.

Good luck!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Semaru]

Thanks so much all, for the advice and encouragement. The story about Dawson the shepherd dog is quite sad and I hope he's over it.

Update:
I thought it was a big problem I couldn't take them out (because they repel the leash and the bag), so I called the rescue centre where I got them. The trainer returned my call. I didn't dare tell him about the scolding as he already didn't seemed pleased, saying that I'm progressing in the right direction but too quickly and I am not to take them outdoors unless necessary for now. (Anyway, he told me Jessica's not destroying stuff to vent her energy but out of anxiety that I am not here in this strange environment - Emily and Jessica just moved in on 11 Feb)

Yesterday was a really happy day as Jessica almost didn't tremble or whimper at all because I didn't scold her at all and I didn't pamper Emily when Emily clawed all over me. (The pampering of Emily used to make her jealous). I'm glad Emily is accepting this change well too.

I'm particularly pleased with her knowing that she has to sit to get her food because I only gave her treats when she gets into the sitting position. I'm sure the trainer would say I'm going too quickly but I'm now trying to teach her not to leave her sitting position while I give her food. She still nearly bites my fingers off to get the treat but I'm just so very pleased that she is no longer just a paranoid trembling ball of fur.

Thanks to all again, you're right, it's such a wonderful rewarding experience watching Jessica's progress. I'll post pics of her later

 

[borgorn]

Dogs know

My dogs always know when they did something bad. My dogs gave themselves away many times before I seen they destroyed something. Don't let anyone a say they don't. Unless they have a stupid dog or something. It's an insult to the dog to say it doesn't know better. If dogs are smart enouph to do police work they can for sure know destroying your stuff is bad. If you can teach a dog to sniff out drugs and bombs and to recognise a gun then you can teach him to leave your stuff alone.

You say you felt bad for leaving the gate open, well that's how you train them. Give them opportunities to be bad so you can teach them.
I won't even get into the dog walking problem.

I think when the dog was a puppy you should of put your foot down more. When my dogs destroy something they get punishment. That is why my dogs have not destroyed anything for many years. Frankly your dogs shouldn't be going to the bathroom on floor either. I've had many dogs and read dog training books from the best. Buy one of these books.

 

[borgorn]

not enough credit

of his way. I wouldn't leave tempting things on a coffee table and then turn a 2 year old child loose in the room with no supervision. And yet I did that with my dog, an animal that only reaches the mental level of about a 2 year old human.

"I cannot repeat to often that dogs have, in my opinion, a brain equal to that of a child of about 5 years old. If spoken to as one would speak to a child, and given a chance to understand, the dog will quickly respond, to the owner's lasting benifit. "Barbara Woodhouse.

I never seen a 2 year old human guard proprty.

 

[Speckles' father]

I think dogs know to a certain extent, but probably not in the exact context as we humans do. My dog Speckles used to pick up random food on the street and it's very dangerous because where I live (Hong Kong) there have been reports of dogs poisoned by food put on the street. People who hate dogs put the food laden with poison on the street. Other times it's just clean food people put down for the stray cats. In any case it's not a good habit so everytime Speckles attempted or actually picked up a piece of food I said "No" (she already understood that command when I got her from a charity) and she would drop the food. If after that I said "come here" with a stern voice, she'd cower and "crawl" over reluctantly, ears down. Now she rarely gets close to the cat food on the street, or if she's tempted to sniff it, she looks and me, and I look at her, and she will just walk away from it. She also bounces away from the food if I say "don't eat", a command that I've been using and she now comes to understand.
I've used "no" or "bad" as commands that indicate disapproval and they work almost all the time because Speckles will always lower her ears and head and look at me with this timid look. Of course, when she listens to me I praise her too, as she understands "good girl". Sometimes after a "no", she crawls over and sits there until I say, "ok go!", then she goes on to play. Maybe I am blessed with a gifted dog, but I also think that dogs are smart enough to understand certain things. Of course, not 100% as we do. Otherwise, I'd have trained Speckles to answer the phone for me.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Behaviorists (you know, those people with PhD's in animal behavior) have found that dogs reach the mental level of about a two year old child. This means that their reasoning capabilities are at that level. Dogs mature past that in many ways, but they are very limited in what they can understand.

Anyone who believes their dog understands the concept of guilt is being completely unfair to their dog. Dogs learn in conjunction with what we teach them. If a dog learns to fear consequences because something bad happens when things are a certain way, then they are going to act fearful when things are that way. Fear is NOT guilt! Anyone who has a dog that acts fearful around them because it's afraid of what the human is going to do doesn't deserve to have a dog.

I live with five dogs, have no problem with things being destroyed or fighting or training - and I don't rely on fear to get my way. I show my dogs in performance events (nearly 30 titles so far) and they do well without having to rely on fear to get them to work. It's amazing what knowledge of dog behavior can do for you and for your dog.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Speckles' father]

Well, if you ask me, I think it's even more unfair to dogs to think of them as behavioral machines. Fear works in controlling behaviors of human beings too, like penalties imposed by the law stop us from doing certain things deemed undesirable. But of course we all know that we are not just that. We also have our cognitive side. I think it's the same with dogs.
Instead of just relying on what the behaviorists say (since when did PhDs have answers to everything? If only it were true!), why don't we look at our canine friends and see it for ourselves?
Speckles once barked at my mother (to cut a long story short they started on the wrong foot and Speckles has never taken to my mother) and I scolded her. She gave her usual ears-down-and-slouching reaction and then just laid down. After five minutes I walked Speckles up to my mom, said to Speckles, "Say sorry!" and Speckles sat down and gave her "hand" to my mom. I had never taught her to say sorry that way but she did know that shaking hands was a gesture of friendliness.
Now, if that's not her guilt showing, what was it?
Again, I don't think she understood to the point of how humans would, but she DID understand. She wasn't merely reacting to fear.

 

[Nobody's Fool]

Here's my 2 cents:
Buddy is a two year old AmStaff. He is housebroken. Normally, when I come home from work he is bouncing all over the place, happy to see me. Occasionally, he does not bounce. He comes to the door, sees me through the window, and slinks off with his head down and tail tucked. He'll go to a corner or behind a footstool and not look at me. That's when I know he's had an accident and pooped on the floor. I DO NOT yell at him, I DO NOT hit him or show any sign of displeasure other than a sigh and perhaps a growly "Oh Buddy..." Yet he knows something bad happened, and that he should not, for some reason, approach me. After I clean it up and spray dog owder destroyer on the carpet, I say his name and tell him it is no big deal.....
I have never used physical force or yelled at him for having accidents, only showed slight displeasure. So why, if he does not know he has done something wrong, does he sulk and refuse to look at me? I think our dogs are much smarter than we give them credit for. Buddy even knows shich days I am supposed to go to work is is confused if I stay home when I normally go to work and gets truly upset if I have to go in on a Saturday. He also knows by the way I dress if I am going to work or shopping..... he knows he gets to ride along if I go shopping, but he has to stay home alone if I go to work.
So say dogs aren't any more intelligent than a two year old..... say they don't have any sense of guilt or "right and wrong"........ I disagree.

Sara

 

[borgorn]

What?


Behaviorists (you know, those people with PhD's in animal behavior) have found that dogs reach the mental level of about a two year old child. This means that their reasoning capabilities are at that level. Dogs mature past that in many ways, but they are very limited in what they can understand.

Anyone who believes their dog understands the concept of guilt is being completely unfair to their dog. Dogs learn in conjunction with what we teach them. If a dog learns to fear consequences because something bad happens when things are a certain way, then they are going to act fearful when things are that way. Fear is NOT guilt! Anyone who has a dog that acts fearful around them because it's afraid of what the human is going to do doesn't deserve to have a dog.

I live with five dogs, have no problem with things being destroyed or fighting or training - and I don't rely on fear to get my way. I show my dogs in performance events (nearly 30 titles so far) and they do well without having to rely on fear to get them to work. It's amazing what knowledge of dog behavior can do for you and for your dog.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

My dogs are smarter than any 2 year old human. Sorry but they are.

I don’t know if dogs understand the concept of guilt, but I do know they know right from wrong, good from bad.
If dogs learn in conjunction what we teach them than simply teach the destroying things that aren’t theirs is bad. It’s really easy to do.

AS you say if a dog learns to fear consequences because something bad happens when things are a certain way then they are going to act fearful when things are that way, don’t you think the dog will simply learn not to make things a certain way then?(destroying things)You kind of proved my point?

And who’s dogs act fearful around them? Not mine for they do nothing wrong to act fearful about. My german shepherd never even destroyed things as a puppy so why would he be fearful. The rottweiler did but grew out of it long ago. I have the most spoiled and loving dogs an owner could want. And they are not fearful of anything.

There you go again, Who relies on fear to get their dogs to work? I think you just like that word. My dogs know many human words and human sentences. If I say “Food in the kitchen.” they don’t run to the bedroom. They are smart. And as for fear. Do they fear for their life? No. They fear the unpleasantness of a scolding. And if they know this scolding will come if they destroy things, they know right from wrong. How else will a dog know right from wrong without scoldings?

 

[soft pawz]

What?
My dogs know many human words and human sentences. If I say “Food in the kitchen.” they don’t run to the bedroom. They are smart.

it is nothing new that dogs can learn to understand certain words. they are intelligent, but that doesnt mean that they understand the concept of guilt.

i dont like the example with the 2 year old child because many people missunderstand it. 2 year old humans and dogs are very differnt in their behaviour. 2 year olds cant do a lot of things that dogs are capeable off. all this comparison wants to say is that a dogs concept of understanding and learning is similar to a 2 year old, not that a dog is like a 2 year old human......so please no missunderstanding.

nobodys fool, it sounds like buddy is a sensitive dog. he can feel your not very pleased and reacts to it. it doesnt need hitting a dog for him to understand something is wrong. i totally agree that dogs are smart, can learn a lot of things (when you usually go to work, days you stay at home, the normal routine, so on.....) again that is no reason to believe that dogs can feel guilty.

""She gave her usual ears-down-and-slouching reaction and then just laid down. After five minutes I walked Speckles up to my mom, said to Speckles, "Say sorry!" and Speckles sat down and gave her "hand" to my mom. I had never taught her to say sorry that way but she did know that shaking hands was a gesture of friendliness""

giving paw is a submission gesture. it is normal dog language and doesnt need to be taught. dogs dont do it to "make up for something" they do it to show they respect the other one as superior.

i wish people wouldnt read so much human behaviour into dogs.......

dogs ARE intelligent and amazing creatures, but they arent humans so dont try to find human behaviour in them.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Nothing anyone has described here changes what I said. In every instance, the dog is reacting in trained behaviors - shows of "guilt" are merely a reaction to the knowledge that they will be in trouble because of the situation.

Even a simple "oh no!" when a dog potties in the house will set the dog up for guilt when a person returns and there is poop on the floor. It's not guilt, it's a conditioned response.

If you scold a dog for something, you are setting up a "fear of consequences" type of reaction. I'm not saying scolding is always wrong, but to then say the dog is acting guilty when it's been taught a fear response is just not right. Dogs don't have a sense of "right and wrong" - they simply do what dogs do. They learn what pleases us (shaking paws, for example) and they're likely to offer those behaviors in reaction to our emotions, but it's not that they are actively thinking "okay, I'll do something really cute and that will make my person ALL happy .. and I want them to be happy because I feel SO guilty over doing something".

My dogs know many human words and human sentences. If I say “Food in the kitchen.” they don’t run to the bedroom. They are smart. And as for fear. Do they fear for their life? No. They fear the unpleasantness of a scolding.

If you fed them food in the bedroom, they'd run to the bedroom instead. It's association. I used to be able to tell my Aussie "go put the frisbee in the truck" and she'd run over, jump into the back and drop the frisbee. But I could also say "frisbee truck" and she'd do the same thing. She associated certain behaviors with certain cue words. All dogs can do this.

And I never said they feared for their lives - fear comes in many forms. The whole concept behind scolding or putting a consequence to a behavior is to set up the fear and the desire to avoid that fear. It can work, yes. But again, it's a conditioned response. They're not thinking through every bit of it.

People who choose to over-anthropomorphize their dogs are just going to do it, I've found. But I give my dogs credit for being dogs .. if I wanted little people around I'd have kids instead.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
UCD Kylee CDX NA NAJ CGC, ASCA/CDN CD, NAC NJC, HIC BH
Trick AKC/ASCA/CDN CD, CGC NAP NJP RN, HIC
Dora NA NAJ CGC
Tori and Khana
.. and always in my heart .. Dawson UD CGC HIC and Lady UD CGC STDs

 

[Nobody's Fool]

Nothing anyone has described here changes what I said. In every instance, the dog is reacting in trained behaviors - shows of "guilt" are merely a reaction to the knowledge that they will be in trouble because of the situation.Even a simple "oh no!" when a dog potties in the house will set the dog up for guilt when a person returns and there is poop on the floor. It's not guilt, it's a conditioned response.
If you scold a dog for something, you are setting up a "fear of consequences" type of reaction. I'm not saying scolding is always wrong, but to then say the dog is acting guilty when it's been taught a fear response is just not right. Dogs don't have a sense of "right and wrong" - they simply do what dogs do. They learn what pleases us
She associated certain behaviors with certain cue words. All dogs can do this.
And I never said they feared for their lives - fear comes in many forms. The whole concept behind scolding or putting a consequence to a behavior is to set up the fear and the desire to avoid that fear. It can work, yes. But again, it's a conditioned response. They're not thinking through every bit of it.
People who choose to over-anthropomorphize their dogs are just going to do it, I've found. But I give my dogs credit for being dogs .. if I wanted little people around I'd have kids instead.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
UCD Kylee CDX NA NAJ CGC, ASCA/CDN CD, NAC NJC, HIC BH
Trick AKC/ASCA/CDN CD, CGC NAP NJP RN, HIC
Dora NA NAJ CGC
Tori and Khana
.. and always in my heart .. Dawson UD CGC HIC and Lady UD CGC STDs

Hmmm..... so how do we help our kids to learn NOT to do something?
"If you scold a [child] for something, you are setting up a "fear of consequences" type of reaction." (break a window...... get scolded)
"shows of "guilt" are merely a reaction to the knowledge that they will be in trouble because of the situation." (break a window..... try to hide the evidence, act ashamed, try to hide)
"[Children] don't have a sense of "right and wrong".......They learn what pleases us [and displeases us]"
"She associated certain behaviors with certain cue words. All [children] can do this."
"The whole concept behind scolding or putting a consequence to a behavior is to set up the fear and the desire to avoid that fear. It can work, yes. But again, it's a conditioned response. They're not thinking through every bit of it."

We TRAIN our dogs to potty outside...... we TRAIN our children to potty in the toilet. Does a potty-trained child act ashamed if they have an accident in their pants? Yes. Why? They know we will be displeased.
We TRAIN our dogs not to destroy things.... we TRAIN our children not to destroy things. Will a 5, 10, 12 year old act ashamed if they break a window, a lamp.....? Yes. Why? They know we will be displeased.

So is a child displaying "fear of consequences".... "conditioned responses".... "trained behaviors"........ ?
Does a 45 year old man avoid speeding in a known speed trap zone because of "fear of consequences" (getting a ticket)?
Or are "humans" just born with the knowlege of right and wrong????

"nobodys fool, it sounds like buddy is a sensitive dog. he can feel your not very pleased and reacts to it. it doesnt need hitting a dog for him to understand something is wrong. i totally agree that dogs are smart, can learn a lot of things (when you usually go to work, days you stay at home, the normal routine, so on.....) again that is no reason to believe that dogs can feel guilty."
Yeah..... Buddy is sesitive. So is my 17 year old daughter. She didn't want me to find out she'd been having intercourse with a 20-something year old man. Why? The greatest "consequence" she had to face from me was my displeasure.

If a dog has the "mentality" of a 2 year old child as far as training and the right/wrong issue, then so does a 17 year old girl, a 10 year old boy, and a 45 year old man......... we are ALL displaying the "trained behaviors" of our past.
shows of "guilt" are merely a reaction to the knowledge that [we] will be in trouble because of the situation.

Sorry this was so long......

Sara

 

[Speckles' father]

Getting away from the concept of guilt a bit, dogs know so much more than we give them credit for. Another example I can give is once I came home from work to change for my friends' wedding. It was such a mad dash so I couldn't walk Speckles as usual. I asked my helper to walk her instead. We were expecting difficulties because usually when I am home she doesn't want to leave the house. But if I work overtime and don't get home by 7pm my helper knows to walk her and there has never been a problem. Speckles was delighted to see me when I was back and I played with her for a few minutes and then I kneeled down to say to her, "Sorry, Speckles, I can't walk you tonight cos I have to go somewhere...." I went ahead to get changed. When my helper opened the door, off they went. It was never that easy. Now, I know what the skeptics are going to say, and let's be clear that I don't think my dog understood me word for word, but I guess she could tell from my tone and my action that things had to happen differently that day. Finally, back to story I told before about Speckles apologising to my mother, she doesn't like shaking hands with my mother, and on the occasions that my mom tried to get Speckles to shake hands, she either ran away or gave her hand very reluctantly, receding while doing it or moving her hand sideways to avoid direct contact. But at that particular time she just gave her hand without hesitance. It didn't seem to be a trained behavior at all.

 

[soft pawz]

shows of "guilt" are merely a reaction to the knowledge that [we] will be in trouble because of the situation.
Sara

i got to disagree (again, sorry )

an example:

you can be involved in an accident. it wasnt your fault but the person in the other car gets killed and you feel guilty all your life even if there was nothing you could have done and it has no legal consequences.

guilt does not only have something to do with the consequences of your actions. it is more our capeablility to mirrow the feelings of another person.

we feel sorry for some things because we know how we would feel if somebody did it to us.

even if it looks like it sometimes and even if we would like to think it, dogs cant do that.
dogs arent guilty. just like dogs cant really do something "wrong" or just to be mean.

 

[Speckles' father]

Maybe we should agree to disagree?
But frankly the example you gave was a little to far-fetched. Of course dogs won't be able to empathize to the level humans do, but does that mean that they completely can't do that? I beg to differ.
One of my friends had two dogs and one day the two fought. When my friend and his fiancee tried to stop them, he accidentally got nipped by one of them. According to my friend, the dog looked a little stunned right after, seemingly realising it had actually bitten its owner. It immediately retracted.
No, the dog didn't write a "I am sorry" note afterwards, but it certainly seemed like it had the mental capacity to realise that being bitten was no fun and his owner wasn't enjoying it.

 

[borgorn]

.
If dogs learn in conjunction what we teach them than simply teach them destroying things that aren’t theirs is bad. It’s really easy to do.

AS you say if a dog learns to fear consequences because something bad happens when things are a certain way then they are going to act fearful when things are that way, don’t you think the dog will simply learn not to make things a certain way then?(destroying things)You kind of proved my point?



. They are smart. And as for fear. Do they fear for their life? No. They fear the unpleasantness of a scolding. And if they know this scolding will come if they destroy things, they know right from wrong. How else will a dog know right from wrong without scoldings?

Actually my dogs know many words and what they mean. They know upstairs,downstairs, go outside, go in the back yard, get in the house, get your ball, get your bone, get him, go for a walk, go to the beach, do you want a treat, and many more.

I have read many dog training books and had many dogs. Maybe some people’s dogs don’t know guilt or right and wrong. But mine do. And always have. My dogs know they will get in trouble if they destroy my stuff there for they leave it alone. I give them enough stuff of their own anyways.

In the dog training book I have under early training essentials there is a page on how to make a dog not chew everything he sees. It tells you how to teach a dog to leave your stuff alone. What makes you right and the lady that wrote this book wrong. She trained over 13,000 dogs and owners.

In Vietnam they trained dogs to sniff landmines out and not step on them and to tell humans where they are. How do they teach the dog not to blow themselves up? Your telling me a dog can do all that but can’t know ripping up the garbage will bring a scolding. If you let your dogs destroy things it’s your own fault.