Clicker Training - Is it Working?

[phillo]

I am clicker training Jack who seems to be pretty smart, at least comparing him to other dogs I've known. Jack exhibits behavior which indicates to me that as a pooch, he gets it.

BUT, he's not hearing me with the clicker. I'm using Pat Miller's book and we started with his name, which he gets. We moved on to sit, which he also gets. We're now working on 'down' which he gets, but only roughly 30% of the time using the verbal 'down' cue. It seems that 70% of the time he's watching me to see if he's done the right thing to get his click + reward, he couldn't give a sh*! about the verbal cue. And, even as I say 'down' I can tell he's not focused on the verbal.

My question - does repetition work and should I persist until he obviously recognizes the cue? I don't mind if teaching verbal cues takes a little longer, I just want to know that I'm reaching him. If I'm not getting through then I need to alter my technique. Advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[CaliTerp07]

How are you teaching "down"? Are you just saying the word, and waiting for him to respond? Because it's going to take a long time to get the association that way (if ever).

For Lucy, we taught the basics luring, and then with hand signals. Once she had the association that touching pointing down/touching the ground meant down, it was easy to add in the verbal. I'd say "down", wait a couple seconds, and then do the hand signal. Soon she learned that "down" was going to be followed by that signal, so she'd drop when I said the word, and didn't wait for the signal anymore.

The other options are to shape it (Stand in front of him and just wait. Click/treat for any motion towards a down, gradually increasing it to a full down), or to capture it (every time you see him lay down, click/treat. Eventually he'll start offering it more). With either of these methods, you still add the verbal command AFTER they understand the behavior you're asking for.

 

[lizzybeth727]

It seems that 70% of the time he's watching me to see if he's done the right thing to get his click + reward, he couldn't give a sh*! about the verbal cue. And, even as I say 'down' I can tell he's not focused on the verbal.

The thing is, your dog is not doing a down because you cued him, he's doing the down because he's been rewarded for doing downs before. It doesn't matter which method you used to teach down, it's always the reward history - how well the down "pays off" - that drives him to do the behavior again. Obviously he's also been rewarded for doing other behaviors, so he's still trying to figure out which one's going to pay off in that moment.

Dogs do learn hand signals much faster than verbal cues; but IME, it's MUCH more difficult to teach the hand signal before the verbal cue than it is to teach the verbal cue before the hand signal. Generally, the cue you teach first is going to be strongest; but physical cues are extremely easy for dogs to understand.... so I teach the verbal first - so that it's strong - and the physical cue second - because it's easy for dogs to pick up on.

 

[phillo]

How are you teaching "down"?

I used the luring method and he does lie down. If I say 'down' he'll usually wait for a couple of seconds to see if the sitting position will get a click, and then he'll lie down.

Maybe I'm just being impatient, I've watched too many youtube videos of perfectly trained puppies. If repetition is the answer, how many sessions a day are ok?

Also, should I wait for him to have 'down' and 'sit' before introducing any additional commands?

 

[CaliTerp07]

That's how Lucy was too, at first. She was still figuring out exactly what me saying "down" meant. It sounds like Lizzybeth uses a different method, but what worked really well for me was saying the word, waiting a few seconds, and then if she hesitated, luring her down.

We must have practiced 10 times a day for a while (just a few minutes at a time). She now has a rock solid down (she will THROW herself at the ground!), but she displayed that hesitation for a while.

Make sure that everyone who is training her (is it just you?) uses the same intonation/reflection of the voice each time. Poor Lucy was getting a short "down!" from me, and a "doooooown?" from my husband. It's two different commands to a dog, especially when they're learning.

 

[harpguild]

I don't like to work too hard at anything if there's an easier way and I taught my dog to lie down a different way. A lot of the things I want him to do he already does naturally anyway, just not on my cue, so I took advantage of that.

Eventually, any dog is going to lie down, right? For 2 weeks, every time I saw him lie down on his own, without any command, I said "lie down" while he did it or slightly after. He always looked up at me afterward so i knew he was getting the message. And, the success rate was 100% because, even though he initiated the down, he was always doing the lie down while I was saying the command, and because he actually wanted to.

After a couple weeks of that, I called his name, he looked at me, and when I said "lie down" he had made the connection and just did it. I rewarded with massive praise and reinforced it for the rest of the day. I was patient and trusted in him and he got it. There was no dominance or bribing involved, just trust and cooperation. I'm planning on a long term relationship with my dog, so to speak. I decided I wanted it based on communication and cooperation, not on physical force or domination.

Basic naming/labeling theory. It also worked for sit, fetch, house training. I'm going to name it "The Passive Post-Suggestive Training System" and make a million dollars. j/k.

 

[CaliTerp07]

Basic naming/labeling theory. It also worked for sit, fetch, house training. I'm going to name it "The Passive Post-Suggestive Training System" and make a million dollars. j/k.

Hehehe, I think it's already been named "capturing", but I got a good giggle out of your post!

CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring

 

[adojrts]

I don't like to work too hard at anything if there's an easier way and I taught my dog to lie down a different way. A lot of the things I want him to do he already does naturally anyway, just not on my cue, so I took advantage of that.

Eventually, any dog is going to lie down, right? For 2 weeks, every time I saw him lie down on his own, without any command, I said "lie down" while he did it or slightly after. He always looked up at me afterward so i knew he was getting the message. And, the success rate was 100% because, even though he initiated the down, he was always doing the lie down while I was saying the command, and because he actually wanted to.

After a couple weeks of that, I called his name, he looked at me, and when I said "lie down" he had made the connection and just did it. I rewarded with massive praise and reinforced it for the rest of the day. I was patient and trusted in him and he got it. There was no dominance or bribing involved, just trust and cooperation. I'm planning on a long term relationship with my dog, so to speak. I decided I wanted it based on communication and cooperation, not on physical force or domination.

Basic naming/labeling theory. It also worked for sit, fetch, house training. I'm going to name it "The Passive Post-Suggestive Training System" and make a million dollars. j/k.

Excellent post and it saved me writing the same thing

I too have had excellent results training this way and I never label a behaviour until it is solid or I say 'good down' while they have done it.

To the OP, try doing this ^^^^ method in the bathroom with your dog or another room with little or no distractions, shut the door, take a magazine/book and ignore your dog. When they have explored everything and lay down, click/reward/good down, ignore them again. The will get the connection given enough patience from you. And keep in mind that, they will often stop the behaviour at first when they hear the click, next important step is to add duration before click/reward. Stop luring and if you do lure ONLY do it a couple of times before vading it.

 

[harpguild]

^^^^^^^^ You mean I did something right? LOL.
This is my first dog and I'm just trying to be nice to him and have a little fun.

 

[phillo]

Thanks again for all the great responses. Jack is getting 'down' better now, as in responding to the verbal cue. I realized he recognized the cue when I asked for 'down' while playing frisbee with him. I had begun asking for a 'sit' before throwing the frisbee and tried for a 'down' and which took a few times but he got it.

During our training session today with food treats the pause between the 'down' cue and Jack actually getting down was only a couple of seconds. We've really only been working on it for a few days, so he's doing ok. I think he's learning the click + treat system which is helping with the verbal cues. During our training sessions I alternate between 'sit' and 'down'. I think tomorrow I'll throw 'stand' into the mix.

 

[Dekka]

The other thing I do is I click for the action of down, not after the dog has downed. So I click when the dog is almost all the way down in the beginning so she gets that its the action of lying down that gets the reward.