Choosing the right dog, and goals in a breeding

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by RedyreRottweilers, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. I don't have a lot of actual breeding experience, but over the years I have learned a great deal from others.

    In planning my upcoming breeding, I looked at my bitch to determine the areas where she needs improvement. I was dead honest, sought the input of others who might be more objective, and I made a list.

    Then I made of list of what I considered to be her strong points, also consulting others to see if what I was seeing is correct.

    Then I looked for a dog who was strong where she is weak, and who complemented her strong points. It was a tough search, because this dog also had to have a flawless elbow background.

    In my search I also considered what was behind my bitch and also the dog, which might not actually be seen in these 2 individuals.

    My 3 main goals with this potential breeding are:

    Improve topline
    Improve turn of stifle
    Improve elbow status

    I also hope to see improvement in mouth pigment, eye shape, and ear set, but these cosmetic goals are secondary to my primary structural and health goals.

    For me, I have to consider both the phenotype of the breeding partners and how they cross-fault, and also what is behind both breeding partners.

    After months of pedigree research at the OFA and Paw village, I found a dog I felt might be a good match for her. I sought the opinion of her breeder, and others who are familiar with this dog and what is behind him. All responses were favorable.

    The dog I have selected has a very nice topline, and his mother and her siblings ALL had gorgeous strong correct toplines, along with correct well turned stifles.

    For you other breeders out there, what were your criteria in selecting partners?

    Do you make extensive use of pedigrees and what is behind the dog?

    Do you breed like to like?

    My breeding will be a loose linebreeding (one dog twice on the 4th line), but it is a fairly strong FAMILY breeding, as it has about 7 lines that go back to a very influential bitch in my breed.
     
  2. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Though I didn't show my dogs, I had a mentor who did . I personally don't like to even think of breeding a faulted dog to any to HOPEFULLY correct issues. I would never breed a dog with a bad bite or pigment .... as well as the normal checks. Of 8 to 10 pups, you MAY get your perfect dog. Or you may not. Redy, you've added many good points to this forum... I know you will do the best for your breed.
     
  3. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    Red, I have a question.
    Didn't you say Penny had not very good eyes (they were to round or something...?)? If so, can I see a picture of Penny's eye's and a picture of the correct eyes? Is the male you picked going to help improve her eye's...?

    ~Tucker
     
  4. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    NO faults should be carried on !
     
  5. Tucker, he should help her eye shape. However, This is a distant line breeding (twice on the 4th line) to the dog where the round eyes likely came from.

    I am taking the risk that I might have some puppies with rounder eyes because this dog was VERY strong in his topline. I put topline (structure) before eye shape (essentially cosmetic)

    You can see many photos of Penny on my website, and as you will see, her eye is rounder than one would like, and also larger than is ideally desired.

    Topline is probably my primary goal out of all of them for this breeding. The spine/topline is the base structure from which all other structural integrity and correct movement comes. Without the right topline to start with, you have no where to go.

    Next in priority would be shoulder construction, and then rear, along with length of hock and turn of stifle.

    As one very wise one once told me, "One must build the house before one can paint it".

    I'm working on "building my house" with this breeding. :D
     
  6. My personal opinion, there is no dog walking that does not have a fault.

    ;)
     
  7. MomOf7

    MomOf7 Evil Kitty taco eater

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    Its interesting to read posts like this. I can see you have put alot of thought into breeding and thats awsome!
    I am really having a hard time finding performance labs that are anywhere near the "standard". I have been keeping my eye out for some labs that have the Classic look. I have one pup out of my breeding that is absolutely gorgeous.

    I look for pedigree, genetic testing, I research each dog from the 3rd usualy 5 or more generations and up. What they have produced as far as titled offspring, offspring that have passed or not passed thier clearances, thier accomplishments and how many trys it took to get there. Thier strenghts in the field and weakenesses. What disease has effected that particular line.
    I will breed like to like if thier strengths are great and thier weaknesses are very minute. I do not like linebreeding or inbreeding, I prefer outcrossed dogs.
    If I get a breeding I really like that are doing well I will do a repeat breeding.
     
  8. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Just checked your website, Red... Best of luck with the breeding, this looks like a beautiful match. :)

    I'm not a breeder and have no experience to add to this thread, but it's a good question to ask and I look forward to reading more responses.
     
  9. Mom, I've studied breeding theory and the pedigrees of influential producers in my breed for years.

    I hope to get to the point in my breeding life where I can breed closely enough to produce dogs who are uniform in type and healthy.

    I have several generations to go before I would want to go much closer than having the same dog on the 3rd line.

    :D
     
  10. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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    For you other breeders out there, what were your criteria in selecting partners?

    Do you make extensive use of pedigrees and what is behind the dog?

    Do you breed like to like?


    I had racing Siberian Huskies for nine years. My main criteria was workability. I bought a bitch from Canada. She had excellent feet (rarely needed to be bootied or have ointment applied). She had a great appetite (sled dogs need to eat reliably even under stress). She had beautiful angulation and smooth movement. I wanted her pups to have a faster trot.

    The stud I chose had good angulation and movement as well. His feet and appetite were good. He was faster than my bitch. He had longer length of leg and body (slightly). I chose him for his pedigree and the fact that he threw dogs with more length. I wanted to improve speed and length. I don't look at head type or earset or any of that, as long as they work well. Form follows function and sled dogs don't belong in the conformation ring.

    My bitch was half Kodiak (racing line out of Canada) and half Northome (racing line out of Minnesota). The stud was pure Anadyr (racing line out of Alaska). I've owned, raced and witnessed breeding outcomes from all three bloodlines and different combinations of them for years from numerous mentors. I actually used to dogsit for Northome kennels. Pedigree played a large part in my breeding decisions. I had CERF results for the entire pedigree. I had racing results for many of the dogs in the pedigree. I had spoken to people that had run many of the dogs in the pedigree and had photos of almost every dog as well.

    In this case, I chose an outcross because I had seen what the lines bred to each other in different combinations had produced before. The Anadyr line throws a specific look - large and leggy with a very particular shoulder angulation that I liked. I spent nine years researching pedigrees and bloodlines and racing/running many different bloodlines of dogs.

    Unfortunately, the breeding didn't take. It was unfortunate, as the pups were going to be my next racing team (I was going to keep all except two - one to stud dog owner and one to a racing kennel in Sweden). I had over 8 requests for pups from other racing kennels in New England and the midwest.

    Anyhow, I liked this thread and wanted to comment from my experiences, because I put a heck of a lot of thought and planning into decisions.
     
  11. whatszmatter

    whatszmatter Guest

    maybe this is addressed already, i haven't read beyond this post yet, but if you had that mentality as a breeder NO dog would ever be bred, Not one ever. There is no perfect dog with no faults. And if there were a couple of them, you'd severely strangle the gene pool and very little genetic diversity in the breed which would result in a quick demise of any breed.
     
  12. IliamnasQuest

    IliamnasQuest Loves off-leash training!

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    After 17 years of working and showing dogs, I'm finally at the point where I am seriously considering breeding one of mine. I've researched her bloodlines, assessed her structure, and am trying to find a stud that would compliment her weaker points.

    The problem I have is that I want a performance line of chows, and that's just not something you see much. She's built very nicely as a working dog, lighter in bone than the typical show dog (although she still meets the breed standard in all ways). I've had her assessed by other breeders and by judges and she is pointed in both AKC and CKC conformation. She's entered in rally at an AKC show next month and will go on into regular obedience as well as being introduced to herding (to assess her herding instinct) and agility (which, if I can keep up with her, she should do quite well at).

    There's a CERF clinic coming up that I will take her to, as well as an International show that provides written critiques. Hips and elbows will be x-rayed in November or so (after she turns two). Her father is probably the most health-certified chow ever, with certifications on hips, elbows, stifles, eyes, heart and thyroid. So she comes from very healthy stock.

    Finding the right stud will be interesting. He will need to be nicely square but not too heavy, because the overly-heavy dogs defeat the purpose of having a working dog. The chow should be agile and quick and without breathing problems. They should also carry a good temperament and a high level of intelligence, both of which are evident in my little bitch. She has beautifully straight stifles, an elegant neck but her topline is a bit arched (just a teeny bit) and so the stud would need to have a very level topline in order to avoid any increase in that arch.

    So many judges base their judging of chows on who has the heaviest head and bone, unfortunately, and fail to take into account what the breed was originally developed to do (hunt, herd, pack, pull). This is a spitz breed, a dog that should have a lot of athletic ability and stamina. And that's what I will be breeding for. While I want dogs that fit the written breed standard, I may not produce dogs that do well in the show ring and that's okay with me. It won't be because they are physically wrong, it will be because they are not overdone as often happens in "show dogs".

    Maybe someday the chow will be known as a working dog again.

    Melanie and the gang in Alaska
     
  13. GSDlover_4ever

    GSDlover_4ever New Member

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    I have yet to breed and dont plan to for a while. But when I do my main focus would be the dog's ability to work, and health of course. But conformation would not be my priority. AS long as the dog has no genetic deformity (or bad temperament), then I would consider it. I would have studded (is that a word?) Caza out but his attitude is very standoffish and does not like people. Though I love his temperament for working, I feel his personality is not for everyone. Its not bad, but I would hate to let one of his puppies get into the wrong hands (up to the b*tches owner). Hondo is more outgoing and friendly and has shown tremendous drive and focus at such a young age. When he grows up I will fully assess him and once he has proved himself a wonderful working dog, then I *might* consider breeding him. If I do get to that point of considering to breed him, then I would start my search for a female. I would so the same thing you did, Red. Find his weak points and find a match who will offer those traits that he is lacking. I would do an extensive research of the b*tches lines and see how well they would do together. Although I more and likely will stick to West German Working lines. Its a long way down the road, but you never know what can happen.
     

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