Changing views on pits, one person at a time

[Athebeau]

Originally Posted by Amstaffer
And apparently you comprehension also suffers as I say you should not restrict one breed over another. Irresponsible owners should not own any dog. Check out my sig....Pitbulls pass Humane society temperment test over 82% of the time which is better that many breeds like goldens.

I just had to say something about temperment tests They show that a dog reacts to a situation and how they handle themselves. I have seen some of the worst tempered dogs pass their temperment tests. A friend of mine with a returned Rottweiler that had displayed poor temperment and could not be kept in a pet home passed the temperment test with a high score.

I myself have had a few Newfoundland dogs that failed, not because they were bad tempered...completetly the opposite, these Newf's were too laid back and did not react to any thing at the temperment testing. They just sat there and wagged their tail at every thing they threw at them...they failed because they did not react and therefore there was nothing to base points on. So, next time you hear of some breeds of dogs not doing so well...it could be that they are not reacting. Another friend of mine with 3 Collies (sweet dogs) and a Shepherd (that I wouldn't trust with children)...the Collies failed temperment test and the Shepherd that I don't trust passed.
I wouldn't put much faith in the temperment tests. it just proves they have a temper that they will display and control.

But, temperment tests do not prove that a dog will not maul under predatory drift. Prey drive is responsible for possibly 99% of all mauling deaths...the scary part is the person that will cause a breed with the full series of motor patterns to attack is not going to be the burgler breaking into your home, or a big burly man coming at you with a baseball bat...it is going to be small children, small dogs/cats, and fearful adults who may bolt. It is when the person bolts, runs, screams etc. that will make a dog fall into predatory drift and attack and possibly kill. This is what you cannot predict with a breed with the full series of motor pattern...and this is what makes them dangerous.

Predatory drive is not aggression, most dogs that can kill a child during predatory drift can also be raised with children and be very sweet and lovable. It just takes that one instant when the prey drive is aroused that you can never predict. We had a child in my area killed by 3 Rottweilers due to predatory drift, I met those Rottweilers before the mauling death, they were very sweet laid back well trained dogs...it just took that one instant of a fearful child to put them into predatory drift. The same child they were sharing and ice cream cone with the day before was now just a prey...dogs don't think when they go into predatory drift. We also had a women attacked by her very own sweet lovable APBT, the only thing that saved the owner was she barely got away to the bathroom and locked the door. The dog kept trying to get at her, not calming down, and this was all due to redirected aggression from a very lovable dog. The police had to shoot the dog and autopsy came back all clear from any health problems. We don't have a huge population of APBT's, AST etc. but, most of the attacks I have heard of against humans have been from these breeds in my area. I myself have witnessed an APBT attacking one of the kennel hands at the Vet clinic, this dog was sweet, but, proved not to be so sweet in a kennel during boarding.

I would just like to point out, APBT's and most terrier breeds are lovely dogs. But, they need a "proper" home. Same with Rottweilers, people need to understand that these breeds have the full series of motor patterns. All dogs can bite, but only dogs with the full series of motor patterns will follow the sequence to kill bite and maul. They have been breed to display these motor patterns and breeders have enhanced these motor patterns to fullfill the jobs they selected for them.

If brought up correctly, socialized properly etc. any dog can be great...but, for people to brush the motor patterns under the carpet and tell people that all these breeds that have been specially bred to have enhanced motor patterns are the safest of breeds for anyone are the people ruining the breeds...you can't go around hiding the enhanced drives...if more people explained to others more about predatory drift, I think people who stop with the fear of the unknown and understanding brings about a sense of responsibilty and proper handling and ownership.

I have seen first hand breeds with the full series of motor patterns and hard wired drives perform their jobs. They do their jobs well, these dogs and especially certain lines that have continued to enhance the hard wired drives can be dangerous if owned by naive owners.

Just for an example if you take a border collie, a herding dog with a limited series of motor patterns...if the border collie were to go into predatory drift and chase a child the worst that may happen is a grab bite...some ill breeders have bred for a little kill bite. In a sheep herding breed they have been specifically bred not to go past grab bite, it's the genetic make up. The border collie has enhanced hard wired eye stalk and chase...they can't help but eye stalk and chase items as they are hard wired.

For breeds like terriers, Cattle droving breeds, they have been bred to have the full series of motor patterns with enhanced drives. These breeds not only have eye stalk, chase and grab-bite...but, when in full predatory mode the natural sequence will follow through...from grab-bite to kill bite to maul. This is why some breeds are more dangerous than others. What makes them more dangerous is when people try to talk as if a Rottweiler/APBT is no more dangerous than a Golden Retriever; when in fact they have completely different predatory sequences that makes one dog safer than the other.
Brought up properly and well socialized these breeds make wonderful pets...but, brought up improperly they can be a danger to society...and that is what scares people.

For myself, I think education is the most important feature of owning any breed with the full series of motor patterns.

 

[Amstaffer]

According to the AKC registration statistics, the Staffordshire bull terrier ranks # 92 of the most popular breed out of 154, it’s pretty much in the middle.

This is getting a bit tiresome as I don't think you are making any progress in your arguements and I am sure you feel the same about mine but....

AKC numbers are completely meaningless. Please take a drive through the inner city of most US cities and you will find the VAST majority of dogs are Pitbulls or Pit mixes with some Rotts too. People who live in poverty rarely buy dogs that get registered or even can be.

Thank you for finally admitting the media can be biased I'm sure that wasn't easy for you.

No because not one of those other breeds has the greatest percentage of fatal dog attacks like the Pit Bull.
[/I]

Wow....once again you still don't get it. Look at the source of your stats again, Pit Bulls don't have the highest percentage but rather the highest number. There is a difference if there are more Pit Bulls (which there are, talk to any police man or mail man in the inner city) of course they will record the most in every stat...Good or bad as I mentioned before. It is the highest percent of the total but not by breed.

Also you talk about offensive power, there has never been a scientific study that shows one breed can bite harder than another. Damage from bites is usually related to size. I would venture to say a 150lb Bullmastiff would do more damage than a 40lb pitbull.

On Restrictions we need to just agree to disagree, you feel certain breeds need special laws on them. As I have said before this would just lead to their banning because it implies they are dangerous because of there breed. If you want restrictions you should have them on all dogs. It would help stop abuse and get rid of bad owners.

Your stats as you admit are in general, and in their generality they are misleading and dangerous.

 

[Amstaffer]

I just had to say something about temperment tests They show that a dog reacts to a situation and how they handle themselves. I have seen some of the worst tempered dogs pass their temperment tests. A friend of mine with a returned Rottweiler that had displayed poor temperment and could not be kept in a pet home passed the temperment test with a high score.

I myself have had a few Newfoundland dogs that failed, not because they were bad tempered...completetly the opposite, these Newf's were too laid back and did not react to any thing at the temperment testing. They just sat there and wagged their tail at every thing they threw at them...they failed because they did not react and therefore there was nothing to base points on. So, next time you hear of some breeds of dogs not doing so well...it could be that they are not reacting. Another friend of mine with 3 Collies (sweet dogs) and a Shepherd (that I wouldn't trust with children)...the Collies failed temperment test and the Shepherd that I don't trust passed.
I wouldn't put much faith in the temperment tests. it just proves they have a temper that they will display and control.

I am not sure who is doing your temperment test but they don't sound like they know what they are doing. I have seen the tests performed at my local humane society and they do attempt to trigger the prey drive attack. Especially when they test Pit Bulls and Rotts, they work over time using people and other dogs (through a gate) to trigger chase aggression. (FYI if you ever get a Pit or Rott from a Humane society they are the most stable dogs ever, because of the extreme testing they go through.) Anyone who failed your Newfies for not reacting is just plain stupid.

As far as your other comments on Prey drift....My sister has two Aussies and they have followed through on cats. She lives on a farm and her dogs will stalk, chase, maul and kill cats and other small animals (I hate that she allows that). My Super Dangersous Amstaff male however has chased, caught and released rabbits. (I try not to let him but sometimes he chases them) He has caught at least three rabbits in his life and never has injuried one (atleast they ran away after he let them go)

Dogs are more individuals that we as humans are comfortable admitting.

 

[Amstaffer]

I refuse to believe someone who lets their dogs drive.

LOL, I had a good laugh on that one! I say Amstaffs are better drivers than any other breed and some people

 

[Athebeau]

I am not sure who is doing your temperment test but they don't sound like they know what they are doing.

The tests were given by the CKC at the dog shows. They were conducted by professional behaviorists. The procedure for the temperment test is based on a point system, a dog has to react to receive a point. If the dog does not react they do not receive a point.

I have seen the tests performed at my local humane society and they do attempt to trigger the prey drive attack. Especially when they test Pit Bulls and Rotts, they work over time using people and other dogs (through a gate) to trigger chase aggression. (FYI if you ever get a Pit or Rott from a Humane society they are the most stable dogs ever, because of the extreme testing they go through.) Anyone who failed your Newfies for not reacting is just plain stupid

.

I have never seen any humane center using such tactics in my area . What is the name of the humane center you deal with, considering many good dogs are completely different behind a fence.

We deal with people every day who end up with unstable dogs due to "the owner" not knowing what they are doing. Some owners who may do extremely well with a Golden, may end up with a disaster with a Rottie. My Rottie is a prime example of a high prey drive dog that was not well socialized during her critical period. She would have been a disaster in a home that did not know about prey drives. If an owner doesn't have a clue about prey drives how are they going to be prepared for the moment the dog goes into predatory drift? I myself had to work with my Rottweiler to desensitize her. I myself can work with a breed with the full series of predatory drives because I understand them...and you Amstaffer understand them as well. We would be considered safe owners. But, when you are dealing with naive owners who do not socialize their high predatory drive dogs properly...you have a problem. I can teach my Rottweiler commands which will help when her predatory drive goes in action, I taught her off, drop it, down (clapping)...there are also breeders who are breeding away from the full series of motor patterns and enhanced drives.

As far as your other comments on Prey drift....My sister has two Aussies and they have followed through on cats. She lives on a farm and her dogs will stalk, chase, maul and kill cats and other small animals (I hate that she allows that).

Yes, they are Cattle droving dogs, they were bred to have the enhanced motor patterns adn full series of drives...if not properly socialized and brought up and trained they can be a danger. This is a good example of how prey drives can be dangerous. If I somehow rewarded my Rottie (also a Cattle droving breed) if she ever killed a cat...well, she has then been twice rewarded...once for fulfilling her predatory sequence and two by me.

My Super Dangersous Amstaff male however has chased, caught and released rabbits. (I try not to let him but sometimes he chases them) He has caught at least three rabbits in his life and never has injuried one (atleast they ran away after he let them go)

That is wonderful. My Rottweiler which I had many horrible problems over coming her enhanced predatory drives (she attacked myself and my sister due to predatory drift)...yet, with proper socialization with my cats...my Rottweiler is wonderful with all cats she meets...and even in chase if she catches them will lick them to death....she has also proven herself with rabbits as she has caught and released as well as caught and released mice.
I wouldn't trust her with a small dog though as I was never able to properly socialize her around them - and small dogs just seem to provoke more, where prey animals such as rabbits and cats-(not prey) but they know how to freeze at the proper time...with a child in the same situation it may not come out so great as the child may not freeze at the proper moment...neither do most small dogs. Actually, I work with dogs daily....come to think of it...I rarely have heard of cats being killed by local dogs. But, we have had hundreds of small dogs attacked as they do not freeze but keep on fighting. I had an AST temperment tested, CD, CDX etc. attack a small dog in the Vet clinic I worked at. The owner/breeder was the most surprised person of all. The little dog was in the other owners arms when it happened and had it's whole hind end torn apart. Dogs without the full series of predatory drive rarely would do something prey orinated like this.

just to let you know, my Rottie is a rescue, confiscated from her previous owners due to neglect by the SPCA. Athena has even caught mice and brought them over to me with a soft mouth. But, this to me doesn't prove that she will react the same way with all creatures. That's the thing about predatory drift, these breeds have been selected and carefully bred to have these enhanced drives, yes, there are thousands that have watered down predatory drives especially when the CKC or AKC gets a hold of them. Breeders who show stop breeding for the working drive and more for pet. Just like my Newf's they are champions in 3 countries, yet they have been watered down so much they do not retain any of their orginal working behaviors at all.

So, basically what I am saying: If you plan on getting a breed such as a Cattle droving breed, Terrier, Northern Breed etc. be prepared to deal with a high prey drive. You need to socialize these breeds A LOT. You don't have to train these breeds to be dangerous, a dog which displays gentle and wonderful behavior with high prey drive in most situations my just surprise the owner some day when it goes into predatory drift if the dog was not properly socialized or trained.
You can make wonderful pets of these breeds, but, if you go more for working lines be prepared to train, socialize and train some more. They have been breed throughout the years to excel at their jobs...this should always be kept in mind...you don't have to train one of these breeds to be dangerous, or even torture the dog. The pleasure for a dog to fulfill it's natural prey drive is reward enough, you could have the nicest people (which I have met many) who have ended up raising dangerous dogs that either had to be euthanized or placed in a home with an owner with experience and knowledge of the breed and had an authority type personality. Some people just don't make good owners for dogs with enhanced drives.

For people to just "tell" people that these breeds are wonderful and are getting the short end of the stick...it's true...but, the reason they are getting the short end of the stick is due to people trying to hide the nature of the dogs and what they were orginally bred for. It took decades to enhance drives...these working dogs were never intended to be pets. We need to educate people, not just yell at people and tell them they are wrong. Where there is smoke there is fire....and this is what is happening with our breeds with high prey drives. While one person may have a dog with high prey drive, socialized it properly and trained the dog...the chances they will encounter a problem with predatory drift is very low. But, when you get naive people getting these breeds or people who just don't have the right personality then you could end up with a bad combination which could turn dangerous.

 

[Amstaffer]

The test were given by the CKC at the dog shows. They were conducted by professional behaviorists. The procedure for the temperment test is based on a point system, a dog has to react to receive a point. If the dog does not react they do not receive a point.

.

I have never seen any humane center using such tactics in my area . What is the name of the humane center you deal with, considering many good dogs are completely different behind a fence.

I still think whoever (Professional title or not) is testing your dogs and says they fail because they don't react is very foolish. When you evaluate dogs you can't go on a strick point systems. You have to make judgements based on their responses. How can they justify failing a temperment test if the dog sit calmly and does nothing?

Where? Wisconsin Humane Society. They only use the fence (gate really) to keep the tester dog safe. The will walk another dog on the other side of a doorway gate to see if the dogs prey drive is triggered by a smaller dog that runs by. They also use the gate to introduce two dogs to see if they respond in an aggressive manner.

You ideas for limiting ownership of certain dogs is fine except if put into practice will lead to prejudice and discrimination against certain breeds because they will sigmatized. I am all in favor of forcing people to take classes before owning a dog of any breed and then be evaluated for their ability to own a dog. I will be the first one to say it is just to easy to get a dog. Restrictions need to be on all breeds not just some.

 

[pitbulliest]

Vega..I'm just wondering...you said earlier on that statistically pitbulls are known to cause fatal attacks and so on..

where are you getting your stats from? Would you mind sharing it in the thread? I'd be interested in seeing them, as the stats I've been looking at show otherwise... *shrugs*

As for the whole topic of "restrictions"..it only works when its on all type of breeds..not just one..if you restrict ownership on pits (which I am not saying I'm against), you need to do it for other breeds as well.....these people are freaks..they'll just move onto other dogs like rotties or filas or cane corsos...we've seen it happen...without a doubt....restricting ONE breed is just a waste of time and money...its not effective at all...

And I just want to comment on someone's post in here regarding breeders as not being part of the problem..I strongly disagree..they are very much part of the problem. Irresponsible breeders that breed their dogs for aggression or some other lame reason like that, will be producing dogs that will most likely develop some kind of behavior problem as an adult..attacking people, other dogs..................these types of breeders don't breed for the right temperament, they don't breed successful bloodlines of show quality..they put two dogs together and alot of times even inbreed...inbred pups have been known to develop both physical and mental problems...just like inbred humans..its wrong and stupid and irresponsible..and very much a part of the problem...

ok...I think I've covered most of what I needed to say...heh

 

[staffy]

Trust me I know how you feel. It's sad when we're walking down the street and people really do cross the street. We constantly hear little comments when we bring Kona to the dog park near our house. All you hear is "uh oh look, it's a pitbull!" or "why would anyone own a pitbull!" Now Kona is 73lbs of solid muscle, but he would rather lick you to death before he even growled at you. He is absolutely great around babies, kids and other dogs. He's about 3 1/2yrs old and I have NEVER seen one bit of aggression out of him and we've had him since he was 8wks.

It really ticks me off when I hear those types of comments. One other thing that really got me going was about 3 months ago we went on vacation and had to board Kona at a local PetSmart. I really didn't want to bring him there, but we did a walk through of the place before hand. It was brand new, the facility was spotless and the people seemed real nice. Anyway, while we were signing the papers we wanted to schedule playtime for him. They have a group playtime when about 5-6 dogs can all play together in one room. Then the manager comes out and tells me that it's PerSmarts policy to not let this "TYPE" of breed play with other dogs. After making a point to show and tell him that Kona is great with other dogs, the manager said no way! So we ended up having to book him independent play time. That's Kona and one person. Which turned out to be MORE $$$ than if he got to play with the other dogs.

I hate dumb, ignorant people!

Very good post though..you should be very proud of your girl..