change of character.

[xyourlocaldjx]

I saved a korean Jindo breed from my gf's friend.

She followed directions fairly well for the first 4 days. Today and yesterday, while walking, she would not listen. Usually when i give a light tug, she'll stop sniffing and follow. Lately i have to tug much harder. Today and yesterday she did not want to go back into the back yard. She would stop dead in her tracks and resist. So my younger brother got ticked off and took her for a non stop 2 mile run. When the dog would sit out of no where he would yank the leash and she'd submit and follow and keep running. She hasnt been listening little by little so my brother locked her inside her crate in the back yard...

anyone have any leads to why she might be acting this way? Slowly she's gaining ground in taking over instead of us being in charge. I take her for walks and never let her roam, she's always by my side. I make her sit before i put the leash on and let her out of the yard. She stops when i stop... but now she just HAS to sniff everything for 2 minutes. It's getting rather annoying.

 

[Lizmo]

Well...FROM the way you worded your post.....why you are loosing her respect for you is because your are using harsh methods on her!!!!

For starters....when she would not come in you take her on a NON STOP 2 mile run...and not give her a break when she was tired!!!!

Then.... when she does not listen to you you put her in her crate outside for a long time!!!! UGH!!!!

You need to show her YOU are the boss....BUT using positive methods!!! Try starting training over...start from the beginning!!! You MUST be patient with some dogs!!! You just got her for HEAVENSAKES!!!!

A dog looses respect for it's owners when....you hit the dog....not take good care of the dog.....not give it the love it deserves!!!

Now please correct me if I am wrong!!!!

 

[Boemy]

How big are jindos? Maybe she was just tired.

Does she live inside? (Wondering because you mentioned her crate was in the backyard.) I think you need some information on dog training, but I'm not sure where to start . . .

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

The reason she will no longer come with you when you pull on the leash is that she has realized that coming with you does not result in anything good for her. She has to leave something really good smelling behind and follow you. That's boring. If you want her to obey with a light little tug, I would start luring her with treats when she wants to sniff, but you want to keep going. This will teach her that coming with you is a good thing. Slowly you should phase out the treats.

Forcing a dog to run is not only cruel but also dangerous. Your dog is not fit enough to run like that. That's disgusting.

This is not a dominant dog. This is a dog. Dogs sniff. They can't help it - their noses are much better than ours are.

 

[Herschel]

Korean Jindos - As Pets

"A Jindo has been known to return to its original abode, however far away it has been relocated. So great thought needs to be undertaken before committing oneself to ownership.

Jindos, as pets, are a rare sight. Though these dogs can be extremely loyal to its owners and are said to be very devoted, they need to be in the right mood to display warm feelings. In fact, the Jindo dog can be hard to manage sometimes. The breed is willful and tends to have things done in its own way."

From: http://www.korean-jindo-dogs.com

The nature of the breed, compounded by the fact that you are almost abusive to the dog, explains your problems.

If you want to gain the respect of the dog, be a true leader. Show it that you are predictable (not reacting harshly for seemingly no reason), a provider (the food comes from you), and dependable (take care of the dog, don't lock it up in a crate).

 

[Doberluv]

If somebody tugged and yanked and dragged you on a 2 mile non-stop run when you weren't use to it and locked you up in a box and was angry at you, you wouldn't feel much like doing anything with that person. Your dog is shutting down. She will not enjoy training or taking walks and you won't have a good relationship with her. That's the most important thing in being a "leader." Would you look up to and respect someone who did that to you? Would you like them and trust them to take good care of you? That's what a leader does. Would you enjoy learning from their teaching you? That's what a leader does. Make her a willing participant who is happy to be engaged with you. It is up to you. The dog is being a dog. She's not bad, stubborn, immoral or trying to make you miserable or trying to take over. Dogs do not have that kind of complexity in their thinking.

Forget all this crap about showing her who's boss and develop a trusting relationship with her. Motivate and reward her (with something SHE loves the most in the whole world) for small improvements. Make things fun and cheerful for her. Make coming to you the best thing in the whole wide world. Stop punishing her. Turn the things she doesn't like into things she does like. Getting into a power struggle will get you nowhere and will teach your dog to resist you all the more.

If you mistreat this dog, you're asking for big trouble, possibly aggression and possibly a continued spiral of shutting down.

There are ways to train a dog to do what you want without dominating her. Are you willing to read a book or two? Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, The Power of Positive Training, Pat Miller (an easy, fun read) I highly recommend you read them. And your brother too.

Why don't you get her into an obedience class with a HUMANE trainer who uses operant conditioning methods or sometimes called positive methods. You'll get a lot further with a dog that way than supressing and squelching them. The dog will be happy and well mannered and you'll be happy too. It's fun to train that way. You have to have patience and understand that this is an animal and doesn't think like we do, doesn't share our value system and is amoral...doesn't understand what the "right" thing to do is or the "wrong" thing to do the way we understand it. This is an animal.

http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm

 

[xyourlocaldjx]

i just spoke with my brother more in detail. It seems as though i wasnt listening to him when he told me what happened. He didnt lock her in the crate. His friend came over so he simply placed the door leaning against the box and when i looked out it seemed as if he actually closed the door. And you need to re-read... My brother took her for the run, not I. He took her on the run because it seems as though the dog wasnt ready to come in. He didnt force her, I watched them run together and she was running with him till out of site. He used those leashes that get longer and longer and he said he wasnt paying attention and it got to the end of the line and it jerked. When i posted this, i wasnt really interested in details from him since i was too busy remodeling my parents bathroom and when i was posting i had to leave for dinner.

I dont treat her wrong, I give her treats. I take her to a closed tennis court and play with her. I groom her etc. I've never tugged hard like what you may be thinking.

This dogs not used to a 2 mile run? C'mon she was raised in the mountains and her owner took her on LONG hikes. We never yanked or anything until today and yesterday. Before that i would never yank and by yank i'm saying a light jerk, not a choke collar style jerk. it's a quick light snapping motion to get her attention.

From my post it may seem as though i am abusive but thats hardly the case. I've never hit her, kicked her, pushed her, heck... i've never even raised my voice to her. and THE REASON I DONT GIVE HER TREATS RIGHT NOW is because she's hardly eating her own kibble. I dont want her only wanting treats all the time.

She lives outside and when off leash she wont wonder off. She stands right by you. it's just those rare cases like today and yesterday where she tugged on the end of the leash. I sat out in the drive way and i came to the conclusion that maybe since all our trucks were parked in the driveway, she wasnt used to that. We had to squeeze through the trucks to get to the back yard.

I'll take a video of how i treat her tomorrow just to prove i'm not being abusive. from what i heard from my brother earlier and what i've heard when sitting down with him and actually listening was totally different.

I apologize if i made it seem as though he was rough with the dog...

She's a small dog and the last thing i'd do is abuse her.

My brother is in the law enforcement program and knows a couple of K-9 officers. i'll ask how they train when i get a chance.

I've been trying to find books and i went to barnes and noble. A guy there suggested Ceaser Milan (SP?) book... I read a couple pages and it seemed liek a bunch of hot smoke so i put the book away. I'll read those books you mentioned when i get a chance. I've read up on clicker training and wish to start, but the dog needs to eat his food before i can load him up on treats!

Thanks for all the help everyone, and thanks for showing me the light!
once again, I apologize for wording my last post like I abuse my dog. I will take a video tomorrow and post it up...

As for now, here are some pictures my gf sent me of her.

 

[xyourlocaldjx]

 

[Herschel]

When the dog would sit out of no where he would yank the leash and she'd submit and follow and keep running. She hasnt been listening little by little so my brother locked her inside her crate in the back yard...

We aren't trying to tell you that you are a bad person--so you don't need to defend or justify anything. The things that you wrote about in your original post may or may not have happened--if they did, we've given you some advice to prevent such behavior in the future.

Cesar Milan's techniques are horrible, and in your case especially, they will only aggravate the situation. (His techniques are based around the idea that he should make dogs submissive, not that dogs should be willing and happy companions)

Why is your dog not eating? Does she have a medical problem (have you seen a vet about it)? Are you sure she is hungry? What food are you feeding? Do you free feed or do you have set meal times?

If you have set meal times and she doesn't eat at those times, then try putting the food down for 15 minutes at each meal time. If she doesn't eat, take the food away. At the next meal time, same thing--15 minutes. Most dogs get the point within a day, but it might take her a couple of days to realize she needs to eat.

 

[xyourlocaldjx]

i just didnt want you guys to think the "dog" is getting treated poorly...

She'll eat but she eats VERY little. about half a cup a day. I've mixed half Evo and half kirkland since thats what she was eating. I'm going to try and feed her only Evo tomorrow. She barely even eats dry dog treats. She'll eat the wet ones like crazy but the dry ones she usually ignores.

she shouldnt have medical problems, havent had time for the vet yet. She was happy as can be up in big bear.

they used to free feed her... But i dont like the idea of free feeding. Sometimes she will only eat after i take her for a walk and get her blood flowing.

It's weird, she wont even poop or pee in the backyard. only when i take her out. She's such a good dog! She doesnt even run, she trots all the time. Could something be wrong becuase she doesnt run?

 

[Herschel]

With the EVO, you should expect to feed much less than you were feeding with the Kirkland Signature. However, 1/2 cup a day is pretty low.

If you're worried about her energy level (trotting instead of running), I think you're due to see the vet.

 

[Doberluv]

Her weight in the pictures looks fine. She is not too thin, so the amount she's eating must be fine for her intake vs. calorie output.

The way I interretted your fist post was why I wrote what I did. I'm sorry if it was over-reacting. She looks great in the pictures.

I agree with Herschel about Cesar Milan's methods....most of his methods at any rate. This dominate or be dominated is old school and not based on any scientific information that is so available now. That's why I recommended those other books. Those techniques make for a happy, willing participant in training, especially good for a dog who tends to balk at training. It draws them in if you find out what motivates her; a favorite toy that she doesn't have all the rest of the time, an extra yummy pea sized treat for behaviors you want to see repeated.

You can take baby steps, rewarding and praising for small improvements or approximations of what you want and then hold out on her until she gives you better, then reward. Show her what you want with enticement and encouragement rather than force. Make things seem like you're confident and having fun. If you can teach her a few little things, she'll get so she learns HOW to learn and the next things you teach will come easier. But remember that it's not easy since we don't speak the same language so when the dog doesn't understand, it's on account of that, not that she's being "naughty."

I aggree with Herschel to see a vet. Maybe her hips bother her. It would be terrible to have her running if she has some joint or bone problem. The vet can also check her weight and advise you in that area too.

I hope things improve for you and your dog. I think those books I mentioned would really help big time.

 

[Angelique]

Cesar Milan's techniques are horrible, and in your case especially, they will only aggravate the situation. (His techniques are based around the idea that he should make dogs submissive, not that dogs should be willing and happy companions)

Whether or not Cesar's techniques are "horrible", depends on who you talk to and whether or not they understand what he is doing, or don't understand and are misrepresenting what they see and hear from others.

Cesar believes that a submissive dog is a willing and happy companion.

He worked with a very violently dominant aggressive Jindo on his show named Jombee. Jombee's owner Scott Lincoln, addressed all of the misrepresentations of how this dog was handled in person and has stated this dog is now a loving family member.

For general info on Cesar's philosophies from an organization which does understand and support him, see:

http://dogpro.org/

I support his philosphies, which I believe mesh very well with positive reinforcement based training methods. My handling methods are different is all. Maybe because I combine them with training, I'm older, and being female...I'm a delicate little flower.

 

[tessa_s212]

I agree with Herschel about Cesar Milan's methods....most of his methods at any rate. This dominate or be dominated is old school and not based on any scientific information that is so available now. That's why I recommended those other books. Those techniques make for a happy, willing participant in training, especially good for a dog who tends to balk at training. It draws them in if you find out what motivates her; a favorite toy that she doesn't have all the rest of the time, an extra yummy pea sized treat for behaviors you want to see repeated.

Agreed.

 

[Doberluv]

Here are some more "ignorant" peoples' opinions about these methods which cause submissiveness and shut-down and supression of behavior dogs in many of the dogs he handles. Submissiveness, fear, intimidation is not what is good for dogs. There are proven ways to get the same behavior and good manners without merely supressing behavior but by re-directing it and giving the dog a reason to engage in wanted behaviors.) This is by operant and classical conditioning and without using aversives. It simply means you train with a brain rather than brawn.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32466&page=7&highlight=Dog+whisperer+cesar+milan

 

[xyourlocaldjx]

this may be a bit off topic, but there's a south park episode where they make a parody out of Ceaser Milan.

http://allabout-sp.net/season10/1007.php

It's pretty much rated R. Need a pretty open mind to watch it
just thought some people might want to watch it for a little laugh on his techniques.

I dont hate CM, and i dont praise him. He's an interesting trainer who uses what works best for him.


Took my pup for a walk this morning and she met a little dog. She seems to like little dogs a lot more than big ones. The only dog she's met so far that she's not afraid of was an off leash 2y/o german shep she met at the park. The GM was so well trained!
While walking her this morning i ran into someone walking two pitbulls. The lead pit was tugging on the leash so hard she sounded like a steam train. They weren't mean or agg.. just very tuggy.

Time for my dogs bath! Got some earth shampoo... They say use one or two palm full of the shampoo.. that shampoo will only last like 8 washes fo $12

 

[otch1]

Hello xyourlocaldjx... I believe you'll find the Jindo to be much like the Shiba Inu. An extremely intellegent, but aloof dog. They are selective about whom they bond with. You have to work very hard to earn their respect. You have not had this dog long enough to have any expectations as yet, as you haven't trained the dog yet. Be very, very patient with this one. Get your training book, a good 6 ft leash, regular buckle collar and some very good soft treats. (This breed will be selective about treats too, if they are anything like a Shiba.) Then practice daily!! No flexilead for training, no chain collar, it will break the hair on this breed. Training needs to be the most interesting and pleasant part of this dogs day and you need to train everyday. You do not want to let this dog get bored and you do not want to set up a battle of the wills with him. As for not running... check the pads of your dogs feet for discolored spots. If you're running the dog on a tennis court (a very coarse surface) and going for long runs (as your brother did) you probably have some sore spots. Just a slight pink dicoloration is enough to make them less active. As for weight concerns... this dog is all coat and impossible to determine weight from picture, but if you get your fingers in there, run them along topline/spine and can feel vertibrae, ask vet about giving B12 to increase appetite. What an interesting dog. I'll bet he's beautiful after grooming today!!

 

[Angelique]

this may be a bit off topic, but there's a south park episode where they make a parody out of Ceaser Milan.

Ha-ha! I've seen it three times already and laughed so hard I cried! It's great! I hear the Southpark guys are big Cesar fans. It's funny to see some of the hidden messages and points being made through the humor, too.

I hear Cesar thought it was hilarious, himself.

Thanks for posting the link. opcorn:

 

[Doberluv]

If she's too thin, if you feel her ribs easily, you feel she's not eating enough, she doesn't enjoy walking very much, these litte things put up a little red flag. Your mind would be put at ease if she got checked by a vet. It's always a good thing to make sure hips, feet, lungs, heart and condition are in good shape before doing a lot of running or strenuous exercise. It just would make you feel better. And when you know everything is good medically, then you can eliminate that when any weird behavior things come up and you can put all your energy into finding creative ways to train her because you'll need to be creative especially with this type of breed.

I wish you the best with this dog. She looks very sweet and happy in the pictures.

 

[xyourlocaldjx]

Thanks for the help everyone!

all the other message forums i've read up on were all old school followers. A lot of the officers i've talked to use the old school method on their german shep's. took awhile for me to find a forum where positive training was key. I hope to learn more from you guys and i will read the books mentioned!