Cesar Milan - cult?
- Thread starter casablanca1
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Have any of you been around wolves?
They punish. Boy, do they punish. They warn first and if the warning goes unheeded...WHAM! Someone comes away with a bit ear, punctured cheek or patches of fur missing. Sometimes they don't warn.
If a subordinate doesn't observe feeding priorities he can find himself bit quick.
A higher up will bite down on the muzzle of a subordinate just hard enough to get the subordinate to back down.
A higher up will put a subordinate on their back pronto for no reason that any human can discern other than pure reinforcement of pack structure.
Sometimes one doesn't like the look another gave him. He'll rush over and slam the subordinate to the ground.
Do they praise each other? Yes, by not biting the underling. Occasionally by grooming an underling.
With all the snarling and snapping and the occasional bloodied ear, wolves cooperate.
They are what they are. They learn that this produces pain, that doesn't produce pain and if I sit and wait I may be able to get a bite or two of that moose without getting my ear shredded.
(I spent time in Alaska. Wolves were everywhere.)
Does this mean I'm going to swat my dog? Bite his ear? No, it just means I'm boss. I say when he eats. When he plays. When we "go on the hunt" (fast walks) and when he potties on those "hunts."
He's a pretty good boy when we come back to the "den" (home). An occasional warning voice tells him "mom's not happy...better try something else."
What I do agree with Cesar about is "Exercise (lots), discipline (enough) then affection (when I choose to give it).
They punish. Boy, do they punish. They warn first and if the warning goes unheeded...WHAM! Someone comes away with a bit ear, punctured cheek or patches of fur missing. Sometimes they don't warn.
If a subordinate doesn't observe feeding priorities he can find himself bit quick.
A higher up will bite down on the muzzle of a subordinate just hard enough to get the subordinate to back down.
A higher up will put a subordinate on their back pronto for no reason that any human can discern other than pure reinforcement of pack structure.
Sometimes one doesn't like the look another gave him. He'll rush over and slam the subordinate to the ground.
Do they praise each other? Yes, by not biting the underling. Occasionally by grooming an underling.
With all the snarling and snapping and the occasional bloodied ear, wolves cooperate.
They are what they are. They learn that this produces pain, that doesn't produce pain and if I sit and wait I may be able to get a bite or two of that moose without getting my ear shredded.
(I spent time in Alaska. Wolves were everywhere.)
Does this mean I'm going to swat my dog? Bite his ear? No, it just means I'm boss. I say when he eats. When he plays. When we "go on the hunt" (fast walks) and when he potties on those "hunts."
He's a pretty good boy when we come back to the "den" (home). An occasional warning voice tells him "mom's not happy...better try something else."
What I do agree with Cesar about is "Exercise (lots), discipline (enough) then affection (when I choose to give it).
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QUOTE: "(I spent time in Alaska. Wolves were everywhere.)"
I've spent 47 years in Alaska .. *L* .. yes, there are wolves, but they're not everywhere - and they avoid humans. It's not like you walk out and join into the middle of a wolf pack.
Wolves don't tend to be aggressive in their dominance. Much like the true "alpha" dog, an alpha wolf has the attitude that sets him up as the leader. I see this in my dogs too - the truly dominant dogs are the ones that handle all things calmly .. who, with a simple look or a short bark, can stop "misbehavior" in others.
I actually had the unique experience of working with a full wolf, and I can tell you that this anmal did NOT act like a dog. There were similarities, yes. But the wolf is such an intense animal compared to the dog. Luckily they do respond to properly timed reinforcements and it was successful with this wolf.
I can tell you, if Cesar had tried his high/tight corrective collar and alpha rolls with this wolf, he would have lost some skin along the way.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I've spent 47 years in Alaska .. *L* .. yes, there are wolves, but they're not everywhere - and they avoid humans. It's not like you walk out and join into the middle of a wolf pack.
Wolves don't tend to be aggressive in their dominance. Much like the true "alpha" dog, an alpha wolf has the attitude that sets him up as the leader. I see this in my dogs too - the truly dominant dogs are the ones that handle all things calmly .. who, with a simple look or a short bark, can stop "misbehavior" in others.
I actually had the unique experience of working with a full wolf, and I can tell you that this anmal did NOT act like a dog. There were similarities, yes. But the wolf is such an intense animal compared to the dog. Luckily they do respond to properly timed reinforcements and it was successful with this wolf.
I can tell you, if Cesar had tried his high/tight corrective collar and alpha rolls with this wolf, he would have lost some skin along the way.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
whatszmatter said:
First, i'm not a follower of Ceaser, I don't do much of anything that he shows. But I do have a few problems with this post. Are you saying that any forms of compulsion or correction are not involved with "true operant" conditioning?
Or is that the term you just like to use for yourself to describe yourself as a trainer?
First, why the hostility?
Just because some lady has a choke chain on a puppy (something that I would probably never recomend and think is a terribly bad idea in itself, but i don't ever recall his show stating that puppies should be put on choke chains? I've watched a fair number of his shows, and the one constant theme that is hammered in ever single episode i've watched is,
#1 getting exercise
#2 setting up boundaries
#3 Be consistent
#4 Be Calm
Yes, this is what he says, which if you've read any of my other posts I agree with BUT he the proceeds to put a choke collar on all but a very select few dog in order to "fix" behaviors. That is NOT what operant conditioning is based apon.
I don't know how that is setting dog training back decades? I think any show on dog ownership that hammers home those points is a good thing becuase not very many dog owners seem to know those 4 simple things.
Do your research on the damage caused by choke chain use (Cesar's DEVICE of choice), then talk to me about setting things back decades. Does the name Barbera Woodhouse ring a bell?
The statement that Ceaser's methods are inhuman ineffective and dangerous, well, pushing dogs into a submissive position is dangerous 100%. Inhumane?? well if they aren't starving or beating dogs sensless, i'm not one to jump on the inhumane bandwagon too soon. A few light leash pops and picking up on a collar to break up a fight aren't very inhumane in my opinion. Which in fact what your statement was, an opinion not Fact as you'd like to claim. Ineffective?? Well that's your opinion as well.
Starvation and beating dogs sensless is where your line may be drawn, I think that statement tells me why you're so hostile with your attempt at a rebuttal. We're also not talking about a few leash pops. Have you seen the extent to which some of these dogs are choked?
Here's a quote from Stephen Lindsay, "properly understood, reward and punishment are morally neutral, the one being neither better nor worse thatn the other. Both outcomes serve equally vital functions in perfecting an animal's adaptation ot the social and physical environment. Lerning to respond and cope appropriately with the treats and trials of life is an important part of normal development for dogs... Although punishment is unpleasant, precisely what aspect makes it so beneficial and useful."
He also says about punishment, "not only is punishment often poorly misunderstood as a behavioral procedure, it is just as often bogged down in dire warnings of serious side effects and, more importantly, the false view that it does not work."
I like this one the best. " .... the pedulum has swung from a stubborn rliance on punishment and negative reinforcement to an equally unnatural extreme in which the use of punishment and negative reinforcement (in some quarters) is shunned to embrace a so-called "positive" approach to training and behavioral control. Extremem positions, whether based on good intention or not, are typically based on irrational beliefs and assumptions,- not scientific knowledge and experience. The adoption of an exclusive reliance on punishment or reward alone reflects a core of misunderstanding about how dog behavior is most effeciently modified."
I'd be willing to bet he's done more research than ALL us on this board combined. ANyone care to tell him he's telling lies, and that you alone have the FACTS?
I can quote till I'm blue in the face equally qualified, experienced and knowledgable people on the flip side of this coin but my argument is FOR the dog. No positive reinforcement trainer worth their weight would use 100% positive methods. Again, that's never been my arguement, VERBAL negative markers must be used if progress is to be made.
Because people misunderstand or abuse punishment doesn't make "positive only" methods somehow superior to everything else. and for some of you on here to be spouting that mantra every chance you have, well, is about the same thing as 50 years ago when people told you that you had to force your dog to do everything.
Please, you must at least read the posts before you snap and start spouting off about things you pull out of thin air.
because the writers of new books lace tons and tons of human emotion into the pages of the book to explain why they're "superior", does not make it new, advanced or superior in anyway.
Hummmmm, human emotion, god help us (and our dogs) if it didn't come into play. I do love my dogs like my children BUT I respect the canine mind enough to know to make the distinction between the two. Do I feel superior to Cesar? No, but I have done everything in my power to attain and maintain an education that takes into accout many different perspectives. You bet I am someone who will always lean towards kindness, not because it's fluff but because it works. Dr. Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and Pam Dennison are more my style and if you do some current investigation, you'll find that's the way most Vet. Behaviorists are now being educated as well. Punishment does not have to be physical to be effective. A simple "eheh, try again" is actually considered punishment and of course I believe a dog needs to know when they're headed in the wrong direction.
I have to say that I'm more than a little shocked that someone who isn't a Cesar follower had so many negative things to say about trainers who try their best to do their jobs with their hearts and minds instead of resorting to physical punishment
Or is that the term you just like to use for yourself to describe yourself as a trainer? First, why the hostility?
Just because some lady has a choke chain on a puppy (something that I would probably never recomend and think is a terribly bad idea in itself, but i don't ever recall his show stating that puppies should be put on choke chains? I've watched a fair number of his shows, and the one constant theme that is hammered in ever single episode i've watched is,
#1 getting exercise
#2 setting up boundaries
#3 Be consistent
#4 Be Calm
Yes, this is what he says, which if you've read any of my other posts I agree with BUT he the proceeds to put a choke collar on all but a very select few dog in order to "fix" behaviors. That is NOT what operant conditioning is based apon.
I don't know how that is setting dog training back decades? I think any show on dog ownership that hammers home those points is a good thing becuase not very many dog owners seem to know those 4 simple things.
Do your research on the damage caused by choke chain use (Cesar's DEVICE of choice), then talk to me about setting things back decades. Does the name Barbera Woodhouse ring a bell?
The statement that Ceaser's methods are inhuman ineffective and dangerous, well, pushing dogs into a submissive position is dangerous 100%. Inhumane?? well if they aren't starving or beating dogs sensless, i'm not one to jump on the inhumane bandwagon too soon. A few light leash pops and picking up on a collar to break up a fight aren't very inhumane in my opinion. Which in fact what your statement was, an opinion not Fact as you'd like to claim. Ineffective?? Well that's your opinion as well.
Starvation and beating dogs sensless is where your line may be drawn, I think that statement tells me why you're so hostile with your attempt at a rebuttal. We're also not talking about a few leash pops. Have you seen the extent to which some of these dogs are choked?
Here's a quote from Stephen Lindsay, "properly understood, reward and punishment are morally neutral, the one being neither better nor worse thatn the other. Both outcomes serve equally vital functions in perfecting an animal's adaptation ot the social and physical environment. Lerning to respond and cope appropriately with the treats and trials of life is an important part of normal development for dogs... Although punishment is unpleasant, precisely what aspect makes it so beneficial and useful."
He also says about punishment, "not only is punishment often poorly misunderstood as a behavioral procedure, it is just as often bogged down in dire warnings of serious side effects and, more importantly, the false view that it does not work."
I like this one the best. " .... the pedulum has swung from a stubborn rliance on punishment and negative reinforcement to an equally unnatural extreme in which the use of punishment and negative reinforcement (in some quarters) is shunned to embrace a so-called "positive" approach to training and behavioral control. Extremem positions, whether based on good intention or not, are typically based on irrational beliefs and assumptions,- not scientific knowledge and experience. The adoption of an exclusive reliance on punishment or reward alone reflects a core of misunderstanding about how dog behavior is most effeciently modified."
I'd be willing to bet he's done more research than ALL us on this board combined. ANyone care to tell him he's telling lies, and that you alone have the FACTS?
I can quote till I'm blue in the face equally qualified, experienced and knowledgable people on the flip side of this coin but my argument is FOR the dog. No positive reinforcement trainer worth their weight would use 100% positive methods. Again, that's never been my arguement, VERBAL negative markers must be used if progress is to be made.
Because people misunderstand or abuse punishment doesn't make "positive only" methods somehow superior to everything else. and for some of you on here to be spouting that mantra every chance you have, well, is about the same thing as 50 years ago when people told you that you had to force your dog to do everything.
Please, you must at least read the posts before you snap and start spouting off about things you pull out of thin air.
because the writers of new books lace tons and tons of human emotion into the pages of the book to explain why they're "superior", does not make it new, advanced or superior in anyway.
Hummmmm, human emotion, god help us (and our dogs) if it didn't come into play. I do love my dogs like my children BUT I respect the canine mind enough to know to make the distinction between the two. Do I feel superior to Cesar? No, but I have done everything in my power to attain and maintain an education that takes into accout many different perspectives. You bet I am someone who will always lean towards kindness, not because it's fluff but because it works. Dr. Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and Pam Dennison are more my style and if you do some current investigation, you'll find that's the way most Vet. Behaviorists are now being educated as well. Punishment does not have to be physical to be effective. A simple "eheh, try again" is actually considered punishment and of course I believe a dog needs to know when they're headed in the wrong direction.
I have to say that I'm more than a little shocked that someone who isn't a Cesar follower had so many negative things to say about trainers who try their best to do their jobs with their hearts and minds instead of resorting to physical punishment
Good point Tessa! Dogs are not Wolves, that's such an old arguement and has been studied to death. To treat a dog like it's a wolf and to act like a wolf instead of a human when the dog doesn't look at you as the same species is just ludacrous. The dynamics are different, leadership is what's important and is gained through control of resources.
In order for a punishment to have even a temporary effect on the future probability of the punished behavior, the punishment must be immediate. It must interrupt the start of the behavior before the dog has a chance to be reinforced for it.
The punishment must be sufficiently aversive to avoid adaptation. If you start out with mild punishment in order to be kind, your dog will adapt and it will lose effect. You'll have to move up with more severe punishment to have it be effective. This is what is often talked about when a horse has a "hard mouth." You get a toughened up, unresponsive dog. If you want it to be effective, start out BIG.
The punishment must follow each and every attempt at the behavior and be associated ONLY with the behavior; there should be nothing else to hint to the dog that he's about to be punished. When the dog is punished for behavior that has been unpunished up to now (and also has been reinforced otherwise it wouldn't exist in the first place) it is as though the dog thinks, "What's different this time?" If it is the fact that you're in the room, his question is answered. He learns to avoid doing the behavior when you're there. If punishment is not delivered regularily and continuously, it's a matter of time until the dog discriminates when the punishment does and does not happen.
If you have the timing, the availability and the stomach for this, the punishment will likely stop the behavior temporarily. Punishment is like sraying your roses for avids. The good spiders who eat the bad bugs get killed too along with other beneficial organisms. The behavior you wanted to target gets hit but so can a huge portion of the dog's other behaviors.
Dogs who are punished a lot behave a lot less in general. What's sickening to me is that that is exactly what a lot of dog owners want. They want a general toning down of the dog. It is a sad statement of human beings who say they love dogs and then turn them into behavioral zombies who are no longer like dogs, but a mere shadow of what a dog should be.
This makes a lot of owners think this is the same thing as training. So many people are frantically looking for what kind of punishment, what kind of pain, what thing to throw at their dog, to spray at their dog or what collar they should use on their dogs.
One well known side effect of aversives training is aggression brought on by a dog's defense instinct. Stories about dogs "turning on their masters" are often after a history of puishment from his owner. Any dog, or human for that matter has a breaking point. The most placid among us might resort to violence to save oneself from perceived threat. Every living thing has varying threshholds for how much punishment he can take.
Another longer term side effect is the development of conditioned emotional responses...Pavlovian or classical side effects. Ie: Dog jumps and plays roughly with the kids. Mom says, "No!" Mom says "No" again.....and again. The dog becomes habituated to that until it has no meaning at all. (meanwhile dog is getting reinforced for such fun play and kids who are going along with it.) Dad comes home and picks Dog up by the scruff of his neck and yells into his face, "NO!!!" Dog stops behavior of jumping, maybe even for a few days. But behavior creeps back in due to reinforcement from the kids. But only during the day when Dad is not home. At night, Dog refrains from this form of play. It is not safe to jump on kids when Dad's around.
Dogs have no sense of morals, right or wrong. They make associations between things..... without the complex understanding that people attribute to them. So, that justifies the use of punishment.
Aversives can have ramifications which are more than meets the eye.
There are most certainly unfavorable side effects to punishment. I certainly wouldn't want to risk it. And besides, I love my dogs too much to jerk them around. I have good success without using punishment other than, "eh eh" or "nah!" NRM, not associated with punishment but the absense of a reward. So, they know they missed the boat and try again. Sometimes I don't even use that and just wait. They figure it out on their own and then they get the reward. There is simply never a need for me to get cross or punishing to my dogs for training errors which are never the fault of the dog.
Back to CM.....I don't think he's as abusive as someone who beats their dogs or starves them. I don't think it's nice to drag a dog by the neck across a floor that she's terrified of. I don't think it's nice to yank upward against the dog's trachea because he hasn't been taught how to walk on a leash yet.
Exercise???? What a gem of advice.
The punishment must be sufficiently aversive to avoid adaptation. If you start out with mild punishment in order to be kind, your dog will adapt and it will lose effect. You'll have to move up with more severe punishment to have it be effective. This is what is often talked about when a horse has a "hard mouth." You get a toughened up, unresponsive dog. If you want it to be effective, start out BIG.
The punishment must follow each and every attempt at the behavior and be associated ONLY with the behavior; there should be nothing else to hint to the dog that he's about to be punished. When the dog is punished for behavior that has been unpunished up to now (and also has been reinforced otherwise it wouldn't exist in the first place) it is as though the dog thinks, "What's different this time?" If it is the fact that you're in the room, his question is answered. He learns to avoid doing the behavior when you're there. If punishment is not delivered regularily and continuously, it's a matter of time until the dog discriminates when the punishment does and does not happen.
If you have the timing, the availability and the stomach for this, the punishment will likely stop the behavior temporarily. Punishment is like sraying your roses for avids. The good spiders who eat the bad bugs get killed too along with other beneficial organisms. The behavior you wanted to target gets hit but so can a huge portion of the dog's other behaviors.
Dogs who are punished a lot behave a lot less in general. What's sickening to me is that that is exactly what a lot of dog owners want. They want a general toning down of the dog. It is a sad statement of human beings who say they love dogs and then turn them into behavioral zombies who are no longer like dogs, but a mere shadow of what a dog should be.
This makes a lot of owners think this is the same thing as training. So many people are frantically looking for what kind of punishment, what kind of pain, what thing to throw at their dog, to spray at their dog or what collar they should use on their dogs.
One well known side effect of aversives training is aggression brought on by a dog's defense instinct. Stories about dogs "turning on their masters" are often after a history of puishment from his owner. Any dog, or human for that matter has a breaking point. The most placid among us might resort to violence to save oneself from perceived threat. Every living thing has varying threshholds for how much punishment he can take.
Another longer term side effect is the development of conditioned emotional responses...Pavlovian or classical side effects. Ie: Dog jumps and plays roughly with the kids. Mom says, "No!" Mom says "No" again.....and again. The dog becomes habituated to that until it has no meaning at all. (meanwhile dog is getting reinforced for such fun play and kids who are going along with it.) Dad comes home and picks Dog up by the scruff of his neck and yells into his face, "NO!!!" Dog stops behavior of jumping, maybe even for a few days. But behavior creeps back in due to reinforcement from the kids. But only during the day when Dad is not home. At night, Dog refrains from this form of play. It is not safe to jump on kids when Dad's around.
Dogs have no sense of morals, right or wrong. They make associations between things..... without the complex understanding that people attribute to them. So, that justifies the use of punishment.
Aversives can have ramifications which are more than meets the eye.
There are most certainly unfavorable side effects to punishment. I certainly wouldn't want to risk it. And besides, I love my dogs too much to jerk them around. I have good success without using punishment other than, "eh eh" or "nah!" NRM, not associated with punishment but the absense of a reward. So, they know they missed the boat and try again. Sometimes I don't even use that and just wait. They figure it out on their own and then they get the reward. There is simply never a need for me to get cross or punishing to my dogs for training errors which are never the fault of the dog.
Back to CM.....I don't think he's as abusive as someone who beats their dogs or starves them. I don't think it's nice to drag a dog by the neck across a floor that she's terrified of. I don't think it's nice to yank upward against the dog's trachea because he hasn't been taught how to walk on a leash yet.
Exercise???? What a gem of advice.
W
I've done research on choke chains, i don't use them, and it appears ceaser use's whatever the owners equip themselves with. Just my observation, but he never seemed to tell people they must use choke collars.
No i've never seen Ceaser really choke a dog, forgive me I don't watch the show that often. I'm not defending him as much as I am my ability to use a correction. Seeing the other thread got deleted before I could ever read a response, I figured I'd just start in on this one.
It was my attempt at a rebuttal and I thought it made some very valid points that i guess don't want to be addressed.
I know verbal corrections can be every bit as effective as physical ones, but to be an effective punishment it must register with the dog.
I never said anything bad about trainers that use their hearts and minds to train dogs, but i'm not going to sit by and listen to punishment is bad, physically correcting your dog will ruin it and make it only scared of you, and it will only do things because of fear, and with positive methods you get synergy and everything beautiful.
They weren't all directed at you. I used your statement, and then everything kind of came out. Someone said, maybe in a different thread even, that they're tired of having to explain themselves and why they use "positive" methods to train dogs to clients. Well I get tired of everytime i read a post with anything to do with any training, as soon as someone mentions correcting a dog or using punishment (and i'm using lay persons terms here) people go off on how they should run to another trainer, leave, cause it will only cause fear, distrust, and ruin their relationship with a dog.
Even the names you mentioned, Dunbar, and McConnel, they know about physically correcting dogs, i've listened and read. They know they have a time and a place. There's a lot of mis information in a lot of these message boards and you can see it get repeated over and over again, till people start believing it.
and what by the way did i pull out of thin air?
No i've never seen Ceaser really choke a dog, forgive me I don't watch the show that often. I'm not defending him as much as I am my ability to use a correction. Seeing the other thread got deleted before I could ever read a response, I figured I'd just start in on this one.
It was my attempt at a rebuttal and I thought it made some very valid points that i guess don't want to be addressed.
I know verbal corrections can be every bit as effective as physical ones, but to be an effective punishment it must register with the dog.
I never said anything bad about trainers that use their hearts and minds to train dogs, but i'm not going to sit by and listen to punishment is bad, physically correcting your dog will ruin it and make it only scared of you, and it will only do things because of fear, and with positive methods you get synergy and everything beautiful.
They weren't all directed at you. I used your statement, and then everything kind of came out. Someone said, maybe in a different thread even, that they're tired of having to explain themselves and why they use "positive" methods to train dogs to clients. Well I get tired of everytime i read a post with anything to do with any training, as soon as someone mentions correcting a dog or using punishment (and i'm using lay persons terms here) people go off on how they should run to another trainer, leave, cause it will only cause fear, distrust, and ruin their relationship with a dog.
Even the names you mentioned, Dunbar, and McConnel, they know about physically correcting dogs, i've listened and read. They know they have a time and a place. There's a lot of mis information in a lot of these message boards and you can see it get repeated over and over again, till people start believing it.
and what by the way did i pull out of thin air?
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whatszmatter:
While you have the right to defend your use of physical corrections, I can tell you why you won't see me recommending much in the way of corrections on a board like this.
People naturally want to use corrections. Instead of learning why and how to properly train, they instead find it easier to try to "fix" a problem with a corrective collar and a pop on the leash, or an alpha roll, or some other aversive method. For some reason that just seems to be the human way of dealing with their dogs. Most of the students I've had (hundreds so far) have had no problem correcting - it's the praise and reinforcement that they have trouble with. It's seeing the GOOD behaviors and not just waiting until the dog does something they don't like that is hard for them.
So on a board like this, my thought is that we are much better off educating on ways to understand and work with your dog, instead of using some aversive method to fix a problem that was probably caused by the human in the first place. My goal is to see people have better relationships with their dogs .. to learn how to establish a good leadership based on trust, and to train using the fewest number of corrections that they can.
The majority of people out there using corrections are compromising the relationship they have with their dogs. They don't have a clue as to how to motivate and train - they instead fall back on things they see on TV or trainers they go to who still think that putting a choke chain on and popping it or strangling the dog is the way to go. It amazes me how many people still have this idea that they need to be "alpha" and that means lots of punishment and force!
So I always find it a bit disturbing when people on these online forums advocate punishment as a training technique. While I will agree that there are occasional times when a correction is something I'd use, to tell people online to go ahead and use corrections is taking a huge risk. On another board I go to, nearly every problem posted has a response from someone saying "put a prong collar on and give pops". This is the mentality of so many people.
If someone posts here that they have a trainer who is advocating a lot of correction - yes, I would tell them that they would be better off finding someone who has a true knowledge of dog behavior - instead of one of these wannabe alpha's with a chip on their shoulder. The reality is that successful dog training does NOT require a lot of correction. Those who still find that they have to correct frequently are not good trainers. If they knew what they were doing, the majority of corrections would not be necessary.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
While you have the right to defend your use of physical corrections, I can tell you why you won't see me recommending much in the way of corrections on a board like this.
People naturally want to use corrections. Instead of learning why and how to properly train, they instead find it easier to try to "fix" a problem with a corrective collar and a pop on the leash, or an alpha roll, or some other aversive method. For some reason that just seems to be the human way of dealing with their dogs. Most of the students I've had (hundreds so far) have had no problem correcting - it's the praise and reinforcement that they have trouble with. It's seeing the GOOD behaviors and not just waiting until the dog does something they don't like that is hard for them.
So on a board like this, my thought is that we are much better off educating on ways to understand and work with your dog, instead of using some aversive method to fix a problem that was probably caused by the human in the first place. My goal is to see people have better relationships with their dogs .. to learn how to establish a good leadership based on trust, and to train using the fewest number of corrections that they can.
The majority of people out there using corrections are compromising the relationship they have with their dogs. They don't have a clue as to how to motivate and train - they instead fall back on things they see on TV or trainers they go to who still think that putting a choke chain on and popping it or strangling the dog is the way to go. It amazes me how many people still have this idea that they need to be "alpha" and that means lots of punishment and force!
So I always find it a bit disturbing when people on these online forums advocate punishment as a training technique. While I will agree that there are occasional times when a correction is something I'd use, to tell people online to go ahead and use corrections is taking a huge risk. On another board I go to, nearly every problem posted has a response from someone saying "put a prong collar on and give pops". This is the mentality of so many people.
If someone posts here that they have a trainer who is advocating a lot of correction - yes, I would tell them that they would be better off finding someone who has a true knowledge of dog behavior - instead of one of these wannabe alpha's with a chip on their shoulder. The reality is that successful dog training does NOT require a lot of correction. Those who still find that they have to correct frequently are not good trainers. If they knew what they were doing, the majority of corrections would not be necessary.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
whatszmatter said:
I've done research on choke chains, i don't use them, and it appears ceaser use's whatever the owners equip themselves with. Just my observation, but he never seemed to tell people they must use choke collars.
The reason that I am so against Cesar's way is that he not only brings these collars with him but he actually tells people (on the show) that for 10 cents they can buy some twine and make their own (strangle collar).
No i've never seen Ceaser really choke a dog, forgive me I don't watch the show that often. I'm not defending him as much as I am my ability to use a correction. Seeing the other thread got deleted before I could ever read a response, I figured I'd just start in on this one.
I agree with IliamnasQuest (above), anyone who has trained for any length of time knows how physical correction pairs way to comfortably with anger for many owners. And honestly, I do most of the aggression cases in my area and absolutely never use force, I don't have to. Most of the aggression cases come to me unfortunately after a bite has already occured. More often than not these dogs are the products of punishment based training methods and of course these bites are usually due to retaliation or fear. I'm not saying that all dogs who are trained with these methods will end up biting, but why use these methods when techniquies void of physical correction work and rarely if ever produce fear or retaliation response. I am a leader, but alpha not really an appropriate term when talking about canine/human interaction. I encourage leadership (control of all resources), exercise, proper diet and all the rest of the pieces of the puzzle that must be there for success, physical punishment is never used in any of my classes or with any clients. Too much room for error and again, unnecessary.
It was my attempt at a rebuttal and I thought it made some very valid points that i guess don't want to be addressed.
I am addressing your points, I just don't agree with them. I started out training a long, long time ago using some mild form of physical correction and have since EVOLVED away from this method as have all of the cream of the crop professionals that I referred to. Just look at the difference between the first and second edition of Jean Donaldsons "The Culture Clash". Jean was here to speak late last year and made it very clear that she wishes she "knew then what she knows now", she would never had used the physical methods that she did in the past....when you know better...you do better
I know verbal corrections can be every bit as effective as physical ones, but to be an effective punishment it must register with the dog.
Exactly, then we agree. I don't use physical punishment in order to get a dog to pay attention. Properly timed NRM and OC works just fine...so why would I resort to the other .
I never said anything bad about trainers that use their hearts and minds to train dogs, but i'm not going to sit by and listen to punishment is bad, physically correcting your dog will ruin it and make it only scared of you, and it will only do things because of fear, and with positive methods you get synergy and everything beautiful.
I don't think that was from my post, but I made a decision a long time ago to do things in a way that was both effective and kind and to be completly authentic with you, it really is quite beautiful to see the results. Another bonus, unlike Cesar, I very rarely have to dodge a bite.
They weren't all directed at you. I used your statement, and then everything kind of came out. Someone said, maybe in a different thread even, that they're tired of having to explain themselves and why they use "positive" methods to train dogs to clients. Well I get tired of everytime i read a post with anything to do with any training, as soon as someone mentions correcting a dog or using punishment (and i'm using lay persons terms here) people go off on how they should run to another trainer, leave, cause it will only cause fear, distrust, and ruin their relationship with a dog.
I will recommend another trainer every single time that I hear of someone using physical correction, it makes me question their education and their ability....just being honest.
Even the names you mentioned, Dunbar, and McConnel, they know about physically correcting dogs, i've listened and read. They know they have a time and a place. There's a lot of mis information in a lot of these message boards and you can see it get repeated over and over again, till people start believing it.
Dunbar has done a 360, during his seminar last April in Vancouver he too covered in great length and detail why and how he has completely changed the way he trains and teaches his student trainers. It sounds like you know the "who's who" in training so you must know about all of Dunbars research which provoked these changes. Like Doberluv stated, doling out advise which gives permission to owners to to be physical with their dogs can have sad and even serious consequences. I need to do what I believe is right for me, my clients and most importantly the dogs (who I altimately work for).
The reason that I am so against Cesar's way is that he not only brings these collars with him but he actually tells people (on the show) that for 10 cents they can buy some twine and make their own (strangle collar).
No i've never seen Ceaser really choke a dog, forgive me I don't watch the show that often. I'm not defending him as much as I am my ability to use a correction. Seeing the other thread got deleted before I could ever read a response, I figured I'd just start in on this one.
I agree with IliamnasQuest (above), anyone who has trained for any length of time knows how physical correction pairs way to comfortably with anger for many owners. And honestly, I do most of the aggression cases in my area and absolutely never use force, I don't have to. Most of the aggression cases come to me unfortunately after a bite has already occured. More often than not these dogs are the products of punishment based training methods and of course these bites are usually due to retaliation or fear. I'm not saying that all dogs who are trained with these methods will end up biting, but why use these methods when techniquies void of physical correction work and rarely if ever produce fear or retaliation response. I am a leader, but alpha
not really an appropriate term when talking about canine/human interaction. I encourage leadership (control of all resources), exercise, proper diet and all the rest of the pieces of the puzzle that must be there for success, physical punishment is never used in any of my classes or with any clients. Too much room for error and again, unnecessary. It was my attempt at a rebuttal and I thought it made some very valid points that i guess don't want to be addressed.
I am addressing your points, I just don't agree with them. I started out training a long, long time ago using some mild form of physical correction and have since EVOLVED away from this method as have all of the cream of the crop professionals that I referred to. Just look at the difference between the first and second edition of Jean Donaldsons "The Culture Clash". Jean was here to speak late last year and made it very clear that she wishes she "knew then what she knows now", she would never had used the physical methods that she did in the past....when you know better...you do better
I know verbal corrections can be every bit as effective as physical ones, but to be an effective punishment it must register with the dog.
Exactly, then we agree. I don't use physical punishment in order to get a dog to pay attention. Properly timed NRM and OC works just fine...so why would I resort to the other
.I never said anything bad about trainers that use their hearts and minds to train dogs, but i'm not going to sit by and listen to punishment is bad, physically correcting your dog will ruin it and make it only scared of you, and it will only do things because of fear, and with positive methods you get synergy and everything beautiful.
I don't think that was from my post, but I made a decision a long time ago to do things in a way that was both effective and kind and to be completly authentic with you, it really is quite beautiful to see the results. Another bonus, unlike Cesar, I very rarely have to dodge a bite.
They weren't all directed at you. I used your statement, and then everything kind of came out. Someone said, maybe in a different thread even, that they're tired of having to explain themselves and why they use "positive" methods to train dogs to clients. Well I get tired of everytime i read a post with anything to do with any training, as soon as someone mentions correcting a dog or using punishment (and i'm using lay persons terms here) people go off on how they should run to another trainer, leave, cause it will only cause fear, distrust, and ruin their relationship with a dog.
I will recommend another trainer every single time that I hear of someone using physical correction, it makes me question their education and their ability....just being honest.
Even the names you mentioned, Dunbar, and McConnel, they know about physically correcting dogs, i've listened and read. They know they have a time and a place. There's a lot of mis information in a lot of these message boards and you can see it get repeated over and over again, till people start believing it.
Dunbar has done a 360, during his seminar last April in Vancouver he too covered in great length and detail why and how he has completely changed the way he trains and teaches his student trainers. It sounds like you know the "who's who" in training so you must know about all of Dunbars research which provoked these changes. Like Doberluv stated, doling out advise which gives permission to owners to to be physical with their dogs can have sad and even serious consequences. I need to do what I believe is right for me, my clients and most importantly the dogs (who I altimately work for).
W
Iliamanas and Dr, thanks for the replies.
I agree that for many owners its easier to fall back on yanking on a leash. And I agree 100% that not very many owners understand the importance of well timed and lavish praise. Its kind of sad when you tell someone for 10 sessions in a row to praise their dog, and its sounds like their mad as heck at the dog every time, but in their mind their saying good dog like it means something to the dog.
I train nothing but motivationally for almost the first 2 years till any leash corrections are used. You must have a good bond and working relationship with the dog before doing things like that, and you must be careful with them. What you do after the correction is very important to keeping that relationship with the dog as well. Mistimed and inappropriate corretions will result in aggression issues most times and a poor relationship with your dog every time.
I guess I've said all i need to say, I think you guys give exceptional well meaning advice and tips. I understand your reasons for believing and giving the advice you do, but why do have to make me feel so guilty about using corrections sometimes?
I agree that for many owners its easier to fall back on yanking on a leash. And I agree 100% that not very many owners understand the importance of well timed and lavish praise. Its kind of sad when you tell someone for 10 sessions in a row to praise their dog, and its sounds like their mad as heck at the dog every time, but in their mind their saying good dog like it means something to the dog.
I train nothing but motivationally for almost the first 2 years till any leash corrections are used. You must have a good bond and working relationship with the dog before doing things like that, and you must be careful with them. What you do after the correction is very important to keeping that relationship with the dog as well. Mistimed and inappropriate corretions will result in aggression issues most times and a poor relationship with your dog every time.
I guess I've said all i need to say, I think you guys give exceptional well meaning advice and tips. I understand your reasons for believing and giving the advice you do, but why do have to make me feel so guilty about using corrections sometimes?
whatszmatter said:
Iliamanas and Dr, thanks for the replies.
I agree that for many owners its easier to fall back on yanking on a leash. And I agree 100% that not very many owners understand the importance of well timed and lavish praise. Its kind of sad when you tell someone for 10 sessions in a row to praise their dog, and its sounds like their mad as heck at the dog every time, but in their mind their saying good dog like it means something to the dog.
You're so right. I even have a hard time explaining to people that "Rover...Come" is not effective if yelled in anger Teaching adults with all of the "stuff" they bring to the table as well as just different learning styles can be difficult. Knee jerk reactions are also hard to fade if that's what someone is used to. I start every class (every level), as well as all private training sessions with a non-judgemental discussion about why physical punishment is not only unnecessary but has some very serious repercussions. This is really not based on my opion but more my experience and current research. I may have appeared very judgemental on this post but if you read your response to my post, I think you'll see how I felt at the time. What I do for a living is soooo not about me and my ego. I am painfully aware that if I don't tread lightly when I broach the subject of physical punishment (with an owner who employs this method), I won't get any where near their dog in order to try to help.
I train nothing but motivationally for almost the first 2 years till any leash corrections are used. You must have a good bond and working relationship with the dog before doing things like that, and you must be careful with them. What you do after the correction is very important to keeping that relationship with the dog as well. Mistimed and inappropriate corretions will result in aggression issues most times and a poor relationship with your dog every time.
I am curious as to why after 2 years of motivational training, there would be any need to do anything physical. I would think that to a dog it would come completely out of left field. (not an attack, just really don't understand)
I guess I've said all i need to say, I think you guys give exceptional well meaning advice and tips. I understand your reasons for believing and giving the advice you do, but why do have to make me feel so guilty about using corrections sometimes?
I agree that for many owners its easier to fall back on yanking on a leash. And I agree 100% that not very many owners understand the importance of well timed and lavish praise. Its kind of sad when you tell someone for 10 sessions in a row to praise their dog, and its sounds like their mad as heck at the dog every time, but in their mind their saying good dog like it means something to the dog.
You're so right. I even have a hard time explaining to people that "Rover...Come" is not effective if yelled in anger
Teaching adults with all of the "stuff" they bring to the table as well as just different learning styles can be difficult. Knee jerk reactions are also hard to fade if that's what someone is used to. I start every class (every level), as well as all private training sessions with a non-judgemental discussion about why physical punishment is not only unnecessary but has some very serious repercussions. This is really not based on my opion but more my experience and current research. I may have appeared very judgemental on this post but if you read your response to my post, I think you'll see how I felt at the time. What I do for a living is soooo not about me and my ego. I am painfully aware that if I don't tread lightly when I broach the subject of physical punishment (with an owner who employs this method), I won't get any where near their dog in order to try to help.I train nothing but motivationally for almost the first 2 years till any leash corrections are used. You must have a good bond and working relationship with the dog before doing things like that, and you must be careful with them. What you do after the correction is very important to keeping that relationship with the dog as well. Mistimed and inappropriate corretions will result in aggression issues most times and a poor relationship with your dog every time.
I am curious as to why after 2 years of motivational training, there would be any need to do anything physical. I would think that to a dog it would come completely out of left field. (not an attack, just really don't understand)
I guess I've said all i need to say, I think you guys give exceptional well meaning advice and tips. I understand your reasons for believing and giving the advice you do, but why do have to make me feel so guilty about using corrections sometimes?
W
its not always the 2 year mark, somewhere between a year and two,usually closer to 2. I guess to keep it simple, this isn't for just pet training. Let the dogs be nothing but dogs, get confident, tons of confidence. At some point defense drives and other things need to be used, and we wait till the dogs are mature enough to handle it. Everything before then is motivational food and toy for the most part. They are introduced to collars and leashes very early, and sometimes with recall training will get very small tugs on the leash to get their attention to come back at 4-5 months, but nothing much at all, and not every dog. its not like one day at 2 years the dog gets blasted with leash corrections. ITs more a maturity thing and what is happening in training.
Lovely. And something that's in my mind too. They're here for such a short time. We have no right to dominate this beautiful specie. It is indeed our duty to learn how to teach them all these unnatural things in a purely pleasant and enjoyable way.
No one is here with the intent of making anyone feel guilty. It's just the way some of us feel. We see how beautifully trained a dog can be with NO collar yanks. My Dobe does beautifully with his obedience and agility. He has leaned a lot, is getting pretty advanced and never ever do I yank his collar or scold. It's showing him what I mean and rewarding. Sometimes there is a calm, low, drawn out, inflected at the end.... "nah" ("no, that's not it. Here, try this") tone....(a no reward marker) No anger, no startling, no pain on his neck, no roughness) Millions of people train dogs without corrections. They simply are not needed. It makes for a less nervous dog. My dog never ever has any notion in his head that I may cause him something unpleasant. He looks at me with this naive sort of expression, complete trust, no worries. In the old days when I used corrections, I was not very harsh at all, but my GSD would sometims look like he was thinking about something else when we were training, like having concern over whether he was doing something right or not, a tad nervous, just not as exuberant and dorky as the dogs I trained without corrections. Judges like that in the ring....dorky. LOL. Springy, flashy, uninhibited.
My b.f. is not what I'd call abusive. But he's very stern with his voice, not very understanding of his dogs, everything is NO NO NO NO NO. He makes me crazy. If his dog is chewing on a bone and it's too noisy while TV watching, he just says in his loud voice, "no!" and again until the dog finally guesses that she should stop chewing the bone. How is she suppose to know what he means? He hasn't taught her. He just hollers out "No!" So, by the time she guesses, she's also shut down other behaviors or other thoughts. This constant punishment or corrections causes a dog to shut down all kinds of behavior. The dog is a little dull, sweet, friendly, but not full of life like my dogs are. There's a holding back sense that I get. His dogs are not cowering, but holding back their personalities for fear of being corrected for something. It's sad to me.
Anyhow, for my dogs and me, training has got to be 100% fun. If it isn't, I'd rather have an untrained dog.
But of course, this has gone a little off track. The idea (which was in another post back there somewhere) was that the dogs CM works with are just about to be pts in many cases. They have severe behavior problems. He has a lot of dogs to reach in a short time. (apparently, positive methods, however they were employed failed. Probably they weren't carried out properly) Anyhow......it's either the dogs get pts or they get fixed up. He apparently is fixing up a lot of dogs, for how long term, I couldn't say. And so, that is what people like to see.....dogs not getting the needle, staying with their owners etc. So, I can't fault him for that. There was a need and a business opportunity presented itself and he grabbed it. Pretty smart.
It would be nice to see another TV show with a very good positive method trainer showing owners how to re-train their dogs to get use to scary things, modify behavior to be accepting of scary people toward whom they're aggressive etc. It would benefit society to show that there are gentler ways of rehabilitating dogs. People do it all the time. They're just not on national television. He's made out to be some super hero, some phenomenon of a dog communicator...I just don't see it that way. It amazing what the media can do too.
No one is here with the intent of making anyone feel guilty. It's just the way some of us feel. We see how beautifully trained a dog can be with NO collar yanks. My Dobe does beautifully with his obedience and agility. He has leaned a lot, is getting pretty advanced and never ever do I yank his collar or scold. It's showing him what I mean and rewarding. Sometimes there is a calm, low, drawn out, inflected at the end.... "nah" ("no, that's not it. Here, try this") tone....(a no reward marker) No anger, no startling, no pain on his neck, no roughness) Millions of people train dogs without corrections. They simply are not needed. It makes for a less nervous dog. My dog never ever has any notion in his head that I may cause him something unpleasant. He looks at me with this naive sort of expression, complete trust, no worries. In the old days when I used corrections, I was not very harsh at all, but my GSD would sometims look like he was thinking about something else when we were training, like having concern over whether he was doing something right or not, a tad nervous, just not as exuberant and dorky as the dogs I trained without corrections. Judges like that in the ring....dorky. LOL. Springy, flashy, uninhibited.
My b.f. is not what I'd call abusive. But he's very stern with his voice, not very understanding of his dogs, everything is NO NO NO NO NO. He makes me crazy. If his dog is chewing on a bone and it's too noisy while TV watching, he just says in his loud voice, "no!" and again until the dog finally guesses that she should stop chewing the bone. How is she suppose to know what he means? He hasn't taught her. He just hollers out "No!" So, by the time she guesses, she's also shut down other behaviors or other thoughts. This constant punishment or corrections causes a dog to shut down all kinds of behavior. The dog is a little dull, sweet, friendly, but not full of life like my dogs are. There's a holding back sense that I get. His dogs are not cowering, but holding back their personalities for fear of being corrected for something. It's sad to me.
Anyhow, for my dogs and me, training has got to be 100% fun. If it isn't, I'd rather have an untrained dog.
But of course, this has gone a little off track. The idea (which was in another post back there somewhere) was that the dogs CM works with are just about to be pts in many cases. They have severe behavior problems. He has a lot of dogs to reach in a short time. (apparently, positive methods, however they were employed failed. Probably they weren't carried out properly) Anyhow......it's either the dogs get pts or they get fixed up. He apparently is fixing up a lot of dogs, for how long term, I couldn't say. And so, that is what people like to see.....dogs not getting the needle, staying with their owners etc. So, I can't fault him for that. There was a need and a business opportunity presented itself and he grabbed it. Pretty smart.
It would be nice to see another TV show with a very good positive method trainer showing owners how to re-train their dogs to get use to scary things, modify behavior to be accepting of scary people toward whom they're aggressive etc. It would benefit society to show that there are gentler ways of rehabilitating dogs. People do it all the time. They're just not on national television. He's made out to be some super hero, some phenomenon of a dog communicator...I just don't see it that way. It amazing what the media can do too.
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it's interesting, because your experiences and mine are so very different, and your training beliefs and mine are quite different as well.
when i got luce, she was 45 pounds of adult, out of control, screaming, lunging, hysterical pit bull. i was bound and determined that i was going to use nothing but a flat collar on her. i stuck to that for quite awhile, even though she lunged and carried on at other dogs on walks to the point where she vomited.
i live in a world where avoiding other dogs is flat out impossible. if i take my dogs out to the backyard to potty, there is a dog. if i take them out the front, there is a dog. there is zero opportunity to avoid until i can complete the long process of desensitizing.
now i use a pinch collar on both of my dogs now for walks. their behavior is much improved, and even if it's not, it's controllable.
and neither of my dogs, despite all the collar corrections they've received, are at all fearful or sulky. mushroom can be shut down with an angry look or an angry voice (or a head halter) but he shows no signs of stress when a collar correction is used. luce is hard as nails and it would take something extremely dramatic to shut her down. i can't even imagine.
i don't and won't train the non-necessary stuff (tricks, obedience-style heeling, etc) with corrections, because they're non-necessary. however, not being dangerous and out of control in public is, to me, worth using leash-corrections for, along with rewards for appropriate behavior. act correctly, get a reward. act like an idiot, get a correction.
when i got luce, she was 45 pounds of adult, out of control, screaming, lunging, hysterical pit bull. i was bound and determined that i was going to use nothing but a flat collar on her. i stuck to that for quite awhile, even though she lunged and carried on at other dogs on walks to the point where she vomited.
i live in a world where avoiding other dogs is flat out impossible. if i take my dogs out to the backyard to potty, there is a dog. if i take them out the front, there is a dog. there is zero opportunity to avoid until i can complete the long process of desensitizing.
now i use a pinch collar on both of my dogs now for walks. their behavior is much improved, and even if it's not, it's controllable.
and neither of my dogs, despite all the collar corrections they've received, are at all fearful or sulky. mushroom can be shut down with an angry look or an angry voice (or a head halter) but he shows no signs of stress when a collar correction is used. luce is hard as nails and it would take something extremely dramatic to shut her down. i can't even imagine.
i don't and won't train the non-necessary stuff (tricks, obedience-style heeling, etc) with corrections, because they're non-necessary. however, not being dangerous and out of control in public is, to me, worth using leash-corrections for, along with rewards for appropriate behavior. act correctly, get a reward. act like an idiot, get a correction.
Well, if you have no place where you can practice with varying amounts of distractions, then you gotta do what you gotta do to give your dogs a walk where everyone is safe. I don't fault anyone for that.
It's just that Lyric use to be the worst puller when he was younger, around a year old, I guess. He was worse than any dog I ever had. He could have made himself a name in the Ididerod. He was terrible if I got him out where there were lots of distractions; people, dogs, noise and when I had to plunge myself into the midst of it....when I visited my daugher in Seattle, I too used a prong collar. He was able to pull me down prone or drag me under a moving car if he wanted to. I had to walk him to go pee pee and get some exercise....and there I was, in the middle of the city. If I really paid attention, I was able to stand like a tree and we'd do that all the way down the block. Stop, go, stop, go. He'd see a cat and OMG! So, believe me....I understand where you're coming from.
But meantime, since then, we have been able to practice and train using a flat collar or no collar because I am fortunate to live on acreage and there are lots of places to practice with low distractions. We practiced using positive methods and now he walks just fine. If I go to Seattle and step out to take a walk, he'll be very exuberant for the first minute or so, forgetting himself and starting to pull. I stop. He gives me slack. We go. He pulls, I stop etc etc for about 1/2 a block, then he looks at me and says, "Oh yeah....Ok. nice walkies." LOL. So, that still needs work. He's always going to be a work in progress. LOL.
But with the prong, you don't yank, do you? (ouch) It self corrects with just a little dig into the skin before they stop pulling. Of course, Lyric pulled anyhow. It was like he was impervious to the pain. He didn't lunge or pull as badly, but he still pulled and I'd have to stop frequently with that too) I just don't like those things if they're not absolutely needed, which maybe it is in your case. You obviously have great dogs who have lots of training. There is something about some dogs when they get out in public. It's like they're trying to embarrass you or something. LOL.
Anyhow, for the last year and a half or two years, I haven't needed that. He finally got reinforced enough times in enough situations for walking nicely and the reinforcement was so much better than the corrections were bad, that he just finally made the "right" choice. LOL.
It's just that Lyric use to be the worst puller when he was younger, around a year old, I guess. He was worse than any dog I ever had. He could have made himself a name in the Ididerod. He was terrible if I got him out where there were lots of distractions; people, dogs, noise and when I had to plunge myself into the midst of it....when I visited my daugher in Seattle, I too used a prong collar. He was able to pull me down prone or drag me under a moving car if he wanted to. I had to walk him to go pee pee and get some exercise....and there I was, in the middle of the city. If I really paid attention, I was able to stand like a tree and we'd do that all the way down the block. Stop, go, stop, go. He'd see a cat and OMG! So, believe me....I understand where you're coming from.
But meantime, since then, we have been able to practice and train using a flat collar or no collar because I am fortunate to live on acreage and there are lots of places to practice with low distractions. We practiced using positive methods and now he walks just fine. If I go to Seattle and step out to take a walk, he'll be very exuberant for the first minute or so, forgetting himself and starting to pull. I stop. He gives me slack. We go. He pulls, I stop etc etc for about 1/2 a block, then he looks at me and says, "Oh yeah....Ok. nice walkies." LOL. So, that still needs work. He's always going to be a work in progress. LOL.
But with the prong, you don't yank, do you? (ouch) It self corrects with just a little dig into the skin before they stop pulling. Of course, Lyric pulled anyhow. It was like he was impervious to the pain. He didn't lunge or pull as badly, but he still pulled and I'd have to stop frequently with that too) I just don't like those things if they're not absolutely needed, which maybe it is in your case. You obviously have great dogs who have lots of training. There is something about some dogs when they get out in public. It's like they're trying to embarrass you or something. LOL.
Anyhow, for the last year and a half or two years, I haven't needed that. He finally got reinforced enough times in enough situations for walking nicely and the reinforcement was so much better than the corrections were bad, that he just finally made the "right" choice. LOL.
yes, i correct my dogs on pinch collars. i do not let them self-correct. i did once accidentally, and that's the only time i've ever heard luce yelp. they are not harsh corrections, but they are corrections. i want the corrections to be under *my* control, not the control of the dog.
these aren't dogs who pull on leash, by the way, even on flat collars. mushroom used to, but i've taught him to not do that. but he'll still take off after dogs at times, which is why he wears the prong. (he's much more mild-mannered than luce, who, for whatever reason, has never been a big leash-puller, just a reactive dog.)
i don't think my dogs are out to embarrass me at all. luce especially is just a crazed maniac when it comes to dogs behind fences and her brain falls out and it's difficult at times to get it reinstalled. pinch collars speak louder than steak (and even stinky tunafish) sometimes.
these aren't dogs who pull on leash, by the way, even on flat collars. mushroom used to, but i've taught him to not do that. but he'll still take off after dogs at times, which is why he wears the prong. (he's much more mild-mannered than luce, who, for whatever reason, has never been a big leash-puller, just a reactive dog.)
i don't think my dogs are out to embarrass me at all. luce especially is just a crazed maniac when it comes to dogs behind fences and her brain falls out and it's difficult at times to get it reinstalled. pinch collars speak louder than steak (and even stinky tunafish) sometimes.
I thought you'd know that was a joke about setting out to embarrass us. If you read my article on anthropomorphizing dogs, you'd see what I mean. Correcting (as in punishment or a sharp yank) a dog, IMO for doing something that it does, only because an alternative has not resluted in ample reinforcements, is wrong. And the reason I say that is that the dog is NOT doing something deliberately, with the intention of "wrong." He's not knowing something and then disobeying. The reinforcements are simply too ample in engaging in the unwanted behavior and not plentiful enough on the wanted behavior side of the scale. He sees something distracting and there's only one choice, to lunge after it. Nothing else has been installed to fill the gap....nothing with a sufficient amount of reinforcement.
So, if someone needs to control their dog because it's dangerous otherwise, I don't have a problem with certain tools which control as long as they're not vicious. And I don't think a prong collar is vicious if used carefully. That harness sounds neat that Dr2little wrote about. But as far as using these devises as training or teaching tools, in the way of punishment or correction...no, that goes against my principles of using operant and classical conditioning methods. If that gets thrown into the mix, it is my feeling that the motivation/reward functions will lose their punch.
So, if someone needs to control their dog because it's dangerous otherwise, I don't have a problem with certain tools which control as long as they're not vicious. And I don't think a prong collar is vicious if used carefully. That harness sounds neat that Dr2little wrote about. But as far as using these devises as training or teaching tools, in the way of punishment or correction...no, that goes against my principles of using operant and classical conditioning methods. If that gets thrown into the mix, it is my feeling that the motivation/reward functions will lose their punch.
Yes, a tool is really only used for control. Tools don't train and I'm all for trying that route first. The use of control tools such as the newtrix are simply to manage a situation, not to teach a behavior or correct a problem. When one of our fosters needs to gain control over an unusually strong or (for whatever reason) problematic dog, these tools mean the difference between the dog getting many walks or no walks at all, and allow enough control for training or sometimes desensitization to take place. I, like Doberluv, would never use pain to control a dog as it not only has to start out at a high level to "seem effective" but the associations that the dog may be making make it a risky addition to training. eg. Dog lunges at another dog and gets a pinch collar correction (ouch), dog shrinks back or stops lunging and recieves praise...was the lunge the reason for the correction?? Was the fact that another dog was present the reason for the pain?? A recipe full of mixed messages and IMO may very well spell disaster. Desentization would never work using this method. What happens when the pinch collar is not on or the person who addresses "leadership" in this manor is not present? What has the dog really learned? Much more effective to pair the trigger (dog approaching) with positive things in a controlled manor (I use the newtrix, or buckle collar depeding) to create positive associations. Dog "learns" to associate the trigger with good things happening and not only the reaction to the trigger deminishes but so does the anxiety that the trigger used to cause.