Cesar Milan - cult?
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Angelique:
Whisperer, to most people, holds connotations of "miracle-worker" which is what many of those hanging on Milan's coat-tail seem to think he is. He does use some components of old school training (corrective collar high up on the neck, tight leash, etc.). While I won't argue that he knows a considerable amount about dog behavior, what he does is not a miracle by any means.
I get what he's doing. I'm not saying that what he's doing isn't effective AT the time he's doing it. But it's not something that someone without a good understanding of dog behavior should try, and unfortunately there are people out there who watch his show and then want to try those things and it can really backfire. It's not helping the dog community to have a bunch of people trying methods that they don't understand. And since we're not privvy to what's happening off-camera, we don't even fully know what he's doing. It's easy to get caught up in the "WOW" of what's shown on TV, but that's not everything that's happening.
Changing a dog's behavior IS training, even if it's simply a matter of changing the way the dog thinks about the humans in his life. Building a good pack mentality may not involve training in a formal sense, but it's still training.
I train using a variety of methods, primarily positive reinforcement. It all starts with setting up the proper pack hierarchy and putting the humans at the top of the pack. When training for specific behaviors (heel, sit, stay, etc.) I do most of the training on my own dogs off-leash and I rely on my ability to motivate and reward. In class situations, my students have their dogs on-leash but they are taught how to shape behaviors and reward those behaviors. It's not unusual to have students doing some off-leash work with their dogs at the end of a seven session class. Dogs in my classes are happy workers, focused on their owners and not in fear because of some painful training collar or method that they don't understand.
Corrections are not high priority in my type of training, although I'm not against corrections altogether. Dogs do learn that there are consequences to some behaviors. It would be unreasonable to expect that life doesn't offer consequences at times.
I've always worked with animals (showed horses before I really got into dogs) and I've spent the last 17 years learning with the dogs in my life. I'm very comfortable where I'm at now but - as in all things - I continue to learn. I've been doing behavior consultations for several years now and am recommended by all the local vet clinics. I also show my dogs in a variety of venues and they do pretty darn well. It's not always easy to teach a chow to do advanced obedience exercises or agility .. *L* .. but I enjoy the challenge.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Whisperer, to most people, holds connotations of "miracle-worker" which is what many of those hanging on Milan's coat-tail seem to think he is. He does use some components of old school training (corrective collar high up on the neck, tight leash, etc.). While I won't argue that he knows a considerable amount about dog behavior, what he does is not a miracle by any means.
I get what he's doing. I'm not saying that what he's doing isn't effective AT the time he's doing it. But it's not something that someone without a good understanding of dog behavior should try, and unfortunately there are people out there who watch his show and then want to try those things and it can really backfire. It's not helping the dog community to have a bunch of people trying methods that they don't understand. And since we're not privvy to what's happening off-camera, we don't even fully know what he's doing. It's easy to get caught up in the "WOW" of what's shown on TV, but that's not everything that's happening.
Changing a dog's behavior IS training, even if it's simply a matter of changing the way the dog thinks about the humans in his life. Building a good pack mentality may not involve training in a formal sense, but it's still training.
I train using a variety of methods, primarily positive reinforcement. It all starts with setting up the proper pack hierarchy and putting the humans at the top of the pack. When training for specific behaviors (heel, sit, stay, etc.) I do most of the training on my own dogs off-leash and I rely on my ability to motivate and reward. In class situations, my students have their dogs on-leash but they are taught how to shape behaviors and reward those behaviors. It's not unusual to have students doing some off-leash work with their dogs at the end of a seven session class. Dogs in my classes are happy workers, focused on their owners and not in fear because of some painful training collar or method that they don't understand.
Corrections are not high priority in my type of training, although I'm not against corrections altogether. Dogs do learn that there are consequences to some behaviors. It would be unreasonable to expect that life doesn't offer consequences at times.
I've always worked with animals (showed horses before I really got into dogs) and I've spent the last 17 years learning with the dogs in my life. I'm very comfortable where I'm at now but - as in all things - I continue to learn. I've been doing behavior consultations for several years now and am recommended by all the local vet clinics. I also show my dogs in a variety of venues and they do pretty darn well. It's not always easy to teach a chow to do advanced obedience exercises or agility .. *L* .. but I enjoy the challenge.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Well, here is my opinion: (just in case you want to know. lol)
I do not believe in forcing or manhandling an animal against his will to do something he is terrified of or doesn't understand (hasn't been trained yet)unless it's a matter of life or death. I do believe in helping an animal overcome his fears by gradually desensatizing him.
I understand the idea of a dog believing in his leader and going along with him because he trusts him. That goes just so far though. If a situation is terrifying, a dog's instinct for self preservation is... and should be stronger than following anyone into a situation of what is perceived by the dog to be extreme danger.
I don't believe in putting a dog down on it's back to achieve dominance over him. People are going to try this, like Rottnpagan said and get seriously hurt. This is not using common sense. This is not natural wolf behavior. His abrupt, dominating techniques are based on old, outdated, unscientific wolf studies and need not be applied to our dogs to achieve desired behavior and in fact, can cause tremendous stress and side effects later on. He is not angry or emotional when he alpha rolls a dog, but it is still not advisable for the general public, as this position can be construed as an attack on the dog, being forced down with his jugular exposed. This is something a submissive dog will sometimes do on his own to show the other that he is trusting him not to attack, that he is acknowledging that he is the weaker one. The alpha does not put another down like that. Anyhow, it's really an irrelevant behavior for us to engage in.
The last show I watched showed a Lab who was afraid to walk on the new hardwood floors. They had some heavy throw rugs around fairly close together and she would either not come out of the wall to wall carpeted areas or she would hurry very fast to get to a throw rug, but would go on the hardwood inbetween but very uneasily as it was slippery. She'd find "safety" when she would get on a throw rug.
I can't tell you how upset it made me to see him drag her by her neck, her collar tightening up terribly as she planted her feet. He just dragged her! She was beyond scared. He went back and forth many times, talking about leadership.This forcing her to get use to something by doing it over and over is called habituation. But it's habituation in the form of "flooding." It's highly stressful to the dog. I did not see trust in him as a "leader" from her point of view....not at all.
Why is everyone so bent on a quick fix? This association between frightening things and the "leader" I suspect will have some bad side effects somewhere down the road...even if eventually he proves to the dog that the terrifying thing turned out ok. Dogs do not move back and forth through time like we do. An association is made at the time of the high level of anxiety. An association which is not easily undone, regarless of what happens 1/2 hour later. While the dog does get habituated to the scary thing, there are remnants of this anxiety left inside the dog.
There is another way to get a dog use to scary things. That is called counter conditioning or desensatizing. The owners could put a piece of meat on the hardwood floor near a throw rug. She'd step on the floor, but be able to get to "safety" very soon. It could be repeated for several days this way. Then one rug could be removed and there'd be a little more distance between rugs. Again, a piece of steak or some highly motivating treat could be put down for her. She'd have to take a few more steps than last time to get to the rug....and so on. This way, she's dealing with the scary thing, one step at a time in small increments, easier to deal with...far less stressful. In a week or two, I think she'd be fine.
This is not synonomous with not being a good leader, as Ceasar would have you think. This is not saying that one should act tenatively instead of confidently. It's saying that dogs don't generalize very well and taking baby steps is easier for them to learn. I think that with the forcing method, she is squashing down her fear because she has no choice. But I don't think she's dealing with it.
I have seen him in programs where he was not rough at all, just direct and I thought that was all right. But a lot of the shows, I was cringing. I thought he read the dogs well as far as seeing when they're relaxed and other body language clues. I just have my doubts as to the long lasting fixes when it comes to the pet owners later on.
Sure, there's something to be said about being a strong leader that the dog trusts and therefore believes and follows. I push my dogs a little bit in that way too, encourage them.... but with milder fears or stumbling blocks. Something that traumatic....I don't care what kind of leader one is....a dog still has a brain and strong instincts of self preservation and cannot blindly follow anyone else. Would you walk into a fire because your leader said it's all right? Would you feel less afraid if he dragged you through and looked confident? I think I'd tend to think the person was nuts. And I think a dog might too. I don't equate dominance or extreme forcefulness with leadership.
Dogs most likely learn by operant and classical conditioning...that is that when the you do this, that happens. The dog walks one step (where he hasn't wanted to go) and he gets a reward or motivator which is higher value than what he gets not taking the step. He then proceeds to reach the goal. (Alpha wolves teach by operant conditioning. "You run around the herd this way and I'll go that way.... and then we'll eat." You do this and you get that.) Anyway, that aside, personally, I do not place a huge amount of relevance to our relationship with our dogs on wolf pack theory....some, but I think it's highly over rated.
So, while there are indeed different methods and one has to use what feels right to them, I tend to agree with people who have studied, tested, experimented on and worked with animals in a huge variety of venues, who have advanced degrees in animal behavioral science....who know about scientific learning theory and know how to apply it and have demonstrated this.
It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes or how long lasting his acheivements will be. Time will tell, I suppose.
Quick fixes in general, usually never work. They only appear to work on the outside....kind of like putting a bandaide over an infection.
I do not believe in forcing or manhandling an animal against his will to do something he is terrified of or doesn't understand (hasn't been trained yet)unless it's a matter of life or death. I do believe in helping an animal overcome his fears by gradually desensatizing him.
I understand the idea of a dog believing in his leader and going along with him because he trusts him. That goes just so far though. If a situation is terrifying, a dog's instinct for self preservation is... and should be stronger than following anyone into a situation of what is perceived by the dog to be extreme danger.
I don't believe in putting a dog down on it's back to achieve dominance over him. People are going to try this, like Rottnpagan said and get seriously hurt. This is not using common sense. This is not natural wolf behavior. His abrupt, dominating techniques are based on old, outdated, unscientific wolf studies and need not be applied to our dogs to achieve desired behavior and in fact, can cause tremendous stress and side effects later on. He is not angry or emotional when he alpha rolls a dog, but it is still not advisable for the general public, as this position can be construed as an attack on the dog, being forced down with his jugular exposed. This is something a submissive dog will sometimes do on his own to show the other that he is trusting him not to attack, that he is acknowledging that he is the weaker one. The alpha does not put another down like that. Anyhow, it's really an irrelevant behavior for us to engage in.
The last show I watched showed a Lab who was afraid to walk on the new hardwood floors. They had some heavy throw rugs around fairly close together and she would either not come out of the wall to wall carpeted areas or she would hurry very fast to get to a throw rug, but would go on the hardwood inbetween but very uneasily as it was slippery. She'd find "safety" when she would get on a throw rug.
I can't tell you how upset it made me to see him drag her by her neck, her collar tightening up terribly as she planted her feet. He just dragged her! She was beyond scared. He went back and forth many times, talking about leadership.This forcing her to get use to something by doing it over and over is called habituation. But it's habituation in the form of "flooding." It's highly stressful to the dog. I did not see trust in him as a "leader" from her point of view....not at all.
Why is everyone so bent on a quick fix? This association between frightening things and the "leader" I suspect will have some bad side effects somewhere down the road...even if eventually he proves to the dog that the terrifying thing turned out ok. Dogs do not move back and forth through time like we do. An association is made at the time of the high level of anxiety. An association which is not easily undone, regarless of what happens 1/2 hour later. While the dog does get habituated to the scary thing, there are remnants of this anxiety left inside the dog.
There is another way to get a dog use to scary things. That is called counter conditioning or desensatizing. The owners could put a piece of meat on the hardwood floor near a throw rug. She'd step on the floor, but be able to get to "safety" very soon. It could be repeated for several days this way. Then one rug could be removed and there'd be a little more distance between rugs. Again, a piece of steak or some highly motivating treat could be put down for her. She'd have to take a few more steps than last time to get to the rug....and so on. This way, she's dealing with the scary thing, one step at a time in small increments, easier to deal with...far less stressful. In a week or two, I think she'd be fine.
This is not synonomous with not being a good leader, as Ceasar would have you think. This is not saying that one should act tenatively instead of confidently. It's saying that dogs don't generalize very well and taking baby steps is easier for them to learn. I think that with the forcing method, she is squashing down her fear because she has no choice. But I don't think she's dealing with it.
I have seen him in programs where he was not rough at all, just direct and I thought that was all right. But a lot of the shows, I was cringing. I thought he read the dogs well as far as seeing when they're relaxed and other body language clues. I just have my doubts as to the long lasting fixes when it comes to the pet owners later on.
Sure, there's something to be said about being a strong leader that the dog trusts and therefore believes and follows. I push my dogs a little bit in that way too, encourage them.... but with milder fears or stumbling blocks. Something that traumatic....I don't care what kind of leader one is....a dog still has a brain and strong instincts of self preservation and cannot blindly follow anyone else. Would you walk into a fire because your leader said it's all right? Would you feel less afraid if he dragged you through and looked confident? I think I'd tend to think the person was nuts. And I think a dog might too. I don't equate dominance or extreme forcefulness with leadership.
Dogs most likely learn by operant and classical conditioning...that is that when the you do this, that happens. The dog walks one step (where he hasn't wanted to go) and he gets a reward or motivator which is higher value than what he gets not taking the step. He then proceeds to reach the goal. (Alpha wolves teach by operant conditioning. "You run around the herd this way and I'll go that way.... and then we'll eat." You do this and you get that.) Anyway, that aside, personally, I do not place a huge amount of relevance to our relationship with our dogs on wolf pack theory....some, but I think it's highly over rated.
So, while there are indeed different methods and one has to use what feels right to them, I tend to agree with people who have studied, tested, experimented on and worked with animals in a huge variety of venues, who have advanced degrees in animal behavioral science....who know about scientific learning theory and know how to apply it and have demonstrated this.
It would be interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes or how long lasting his acheivements will be. Time will tell, I suppose.
Quick fixes in general, usually never work. They only appear to work on the outside....kind of like putting a bandaide over an infection.
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Melanie,
I've also had horses. Two were maniacs, straight off the race track. How do you get a horse past a scary object on the trail? That's pretty much how I handle a fearful dog, which are my favorite dogs to work with and adopt.
I can tell by your posts, you know what you are doing. Just the fact that you do use corrections occasionally, shows you are a realist.
You also sound like a strong pack leader. Are you a natural, like Doberluv?
Yes, there are some people who will try Cesar's techniques, without the help of a professional, and get hurt. This is the nature of people. The only way you will ever stop dog bites completely, is by getting rid of dogs.
In the long run, I'm convinced Cesar's philosophies and methods will reduce dog bites overall, keep dogs within their homes, and reduce the number of dogs which are put down.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of any constructive arguement against Cesar's methods, (other than emotional outbursts and inflamatory statements by people with personal agendas), there is a certain group of people eagerly awaiting the dog bites, so a least they can say they were right about something.
You know who you are.
Doberluv,
I don't think of everything in terms of training. I can't put operant conditioning into the same catagory as an animal's SPECIFIC psychology, communication, and leadership. Although they do work best, when used together. Operant conditioning is only one third of the equasion, IMO.
Operant conditioning is not the same as clearly communicating what you want and expect as dog's leader, where the boundaries are, and the security of knowing their place within the group.
I can live in perfect harmony with a dog, through leadership and communication, with very little actual "training". Although, there IS learning involved. Living beings are learning all the time, without being "conditioned", by someone else.
Training a dog to perform a task, has little to do with a dog's stability. I believe a dog's stability and behavior are centered around their emotional/mental state and security, which is a reflection of the leader. Show me a messed up dog, and I'll show you a messed up owner.
Alright, come and get me!
I've also had horses. Two were maniacs, straight off the race track. How do you get a horse past a scary object on the trail? That's pretty much how I handle a fearful dog, which are my favorite dogs to work with and adopt.
I can tell by your posts, you know what you are doing. Just the fact that you do use corrections occasionally, shows you are a realist.
You also sound like a strong pack leader. Are you a natural, like Doberluv?
Yes, there are some people who will try Cesar's techniques, without the help of a professional, and get hurt. This is the nature of people. The only way you will ever stop dog bites completely, is by getting rid of dogs.
In the long run, I'm convinced Cesar's philosophies and methods will reduce dog bites overall, keep dogs within their homes, and reduce the number of dogs which are put down.
Unfortunately, due to the lack of any constructive arguement against Cesar's methods, (other than emotional outbursts and inflamatory statements by people with personal agendas), there is a certain group of people eagerly awaiting the dog bites, so a least they can say they were right about something.
You know who you are.
Doberluv,
I don't think of everything in terms of training. I can't put operant conditioning into the same catagory as an animal's SPECIFIC psychology, communication, and leadership. Although they do work best, when used together. Operant conditioning is only one third of the equasion, IMO.
Operant conditioning is not the same as clearly communicating what you want and expect as dog's leader, where the boundaries are, and the security of knowing their place within the group.
I can live in perfect harmony with a dog, through leadership and communication, with very little actual "training". Although, there IS learning involved. Living beings are learning all the time, without being "conditioned", by someone else.
Training a dog to perform a task, has little to do with a dog's stability. I believe a dog's stability and behavior are centered around their emotional/mental state and security, which is a reflection of the leader. Show me a messed up dog, and I'll show you a messed up owner.
Alright, come and get me!
Operant conditioning is like gravity. Gravity is all around us. We cannot escape it. We can throw any type of object off a tall building and it will fall to the ground. We live with it. Our every move is related to it.
Operant conditioning is also all around us. We live with it and there is nothing we do which does not involve it.
When you think of leadership, living in harmony with a dog, showing it where it's boundaries are, where it's emotional stability comes from, communicating with it, using canine psychology, what is happening? Where is there a condition (an attitude, demeanor a body language, a communication) where there is no response or reaction, no ramification? If there is something there which does not include a condition and a response, then there is no operant conditioning. An operant is an action....a cue, a communication, a body language, a piece of canine psychology and the resulting response occurs, just like dropping something off a building.
We live with operant conditioning every moment. Wolves live with it and teach and learn by it. An alpha wolf cues with body language or some other form of communication another wolf to wait to dig into that killed antelope. The other wolf waits and then eats. A condition (the cue) the response....the reaction.
Operant conditioning is not just about training a dog in advanced obedience for competition. Operant conditioning is going on all the while we interact with our dogs, whether it be training formally or giving a dog security by including or taking into account a dog's psychology. How it is orchestrated or put forth varies.
Formal training is one thing and it's true. Someone can have a well trained dog in skills, but is sorely lacking in possibly manners at home, security. It may live in fear. There are plenty of trained dogs who are afraid of their owner. Someone can have a dog who does not know basic obedience skills, but is perfectly happy and secure. It's how we use operant conditioning to our and our dog's advantage in training and/or just living and interacting with our dogs that makes or breaks the relationship or the dog's happiness.
Operant conditioning is also all around us. We live with it and there is nothing we do which does not involve it.
When you think of leadership, living in harmony with a dog, showing it where it's boundaries are, where it's emotional stability comes from, communicating with it, using canine psychology, what is happening? Where is there a condition (an attitude, demeanor a body language, a communication) where there is no response or reaction, no ramification? If there is something there which does not include a condition and a response, then there is no operant conditioning. An operant is an action....a cue, a communication, a body language, a piece of canine psychology and the resulting response occurs, just like dropping something off a building.
We live with operant conditioning every moment. Wolves live with it and teach and learn by it. An alpha wolf cues with body language or some other form of communication another wolf to wait to dig into that killed antelope. The other wolf waits and then eats. A condition (the cue) the response....the reaction.
Operant conditioning is not just about training a dog in advanced obedience for competition. Operant conditioning is going on all the while we interact with our dogs, whether it be training formally or giving a dog security by including or taking into account a dog's psychology. How it is orchestrated or put forth varies.
Formal training is one thing and it's true. Someone can have a well trained dog in skills, but is sorely lacking in possibly manners at home, security. It may live in fear. There are plenty of trained dogs who are afraid of their owner. Someone can have a dog who does not know basic obedience skills, but is perfectly happy and secure. It's how we use operant conditioning to our and our dog's advantage in training and/or just living and interacting with our dogs that makes or breaks the relationship or the dog's happiness.
Well, maybe I define too much. But my feeling is that defining is important too so people who don't know, don't think that leadership means force or pain. And I think it's important to know how dogs learn because they are learning all the time, even if it's not specific obedience skills. They're learning how and why to trust us, to follow us, to feel connected to us, to feel happy and secure. Actions from them or us have reactions and that's all about operant type learning. What matters is (IMO) that dogs are treated fairly and within the scope of their understanding. I don't think that thier understanding or way of communicating includes what I witnessed on that one episode.
Like I said, I have seen some things that I think are all right and in fact, a good way to deal with dogs. I liked how he sat beside a little dog who was afraid of getting his medicine and would growl and snap. He calmly sat alongside, parallel to the dog and just waited till the dog calmed down, then gave him a belly rub and carefully slipped in the meds. Why wouldn't he take it gently and slowly with the Lab? I just didn't think that much force was necessary.
I just got back from a good walk around the golf course. I spent about 10 minutes on running through a few obedience skills with Lyric and the rest of the time just walking around, while he explored. He found a tree across the woodsy place and looked at me and then at the tree, then back at me. He had a smiley look in his eyes. LOL. I said, "go for it! Go jump." And off he went, springing over this thing like it was nothing. Then he turned and came back, jumping over it again. I swear he was saying with his expression, "Look Mom! Watch me! Watch me!" LOL. His eyes are twinkling and his teeth are showing. lol. Then he ran off and did it again, the one direction and then back again, looking at me inbetween. Too freakin' cute. I can't tell you what a kick I get out of this dog. I couldn't ask for a more cooperative friend.
Like I said, I have seen some things that I think are all right and in fact, a good way to deal with dogs. I liked how he sat beside a little dog who was afraid of getting his medicine and would growl and snap. He calmly sat alongside, parallel to the dog and just waited till the dog calmed down, then gave him a belly rub and carefully slipped in the meds. Why wouldn't he take it gently and slowly with the Lab? I just didn't think that much force was necessary.
I just got back from a good walk around the golf course. I spent about 10 minutes on running through a few obedience skills with Lyric and the rest of the time just walking around, while he explored. He found a tree across the woodsy place and looked at me and then at the tree, then back at me. He had a smiley look in his eyes. LOL. I said, "go for it! Go jump." And off he went, springing over this thing like it was nothing. Then he turned and came back, jumping over it again. I swear he was saying with his expression, "Look Mom! Watch me! Watch me!" LOL. His eyes are twinkling and his teeth are showing. lol. Then he ran off and did it again, the one direction and then back again, looking at me inbetween. Too freakin' cute. I can't tell you what a kick I get out of this dog. I couldn't ask for a more cooperative friend.
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I always enjoy your details. You always get me thinking.
It's just because I think like a "people trainer", that it's important for me to break everything down, view it in it's proper place, and use it in it's proper manner.
Simply interacting with a dog, is easy.
It's like talking about different parts of the body. To study the human body, it's best to study each part, to know how they interact with each other. But, they are still part of the whole.
The timing aspect alone, is very important. The timing of WHEN to establish leadership, WHEN to communicate a boundary, and WHEN to reward for a desired behavior. They all have their proper place and time.
I don't have a problem with Cesar's "flooding" techniques. Since we can't "tell" a dog, there is nothing to fear, we can walk them through it, while keeping perfectly calm. This can also create a very trusting bond, if it is done correctly. I see a difference in a "brute force technique", and not allowing a dog to back down...the key word being "brute". Cesar is not a brutal man in anything I've seen him do. And, the dog would know it.
I used these same techniques with my own dog in situations where she would completely flip out. She's doing great now. But, people were really wondering what I'd gotten myself into with this one!
Another aspect of Cesar's philosophy which I understand, is through leadership, the dog immediately knows his place=one pressure taken off the dog, he knows his boundaries with just a word=another pressure taken off the dog, and once a fear is faced, you move on. The dog is able to get on with their life and start moving forward.
Although I also used counter conditioning with my dog, walking her through her fears, freed her from those fears much more quickly, than counter conditioning alone. IMO, every moment a dog no longer has to live in fear and instability, is a blessing.
It's just because I think like a "people trainer", that it's important for me to break everything down, view it in it's proper place, and use it in it's proper manner.
Simply interacting with a dog, is easy.
It's like talking about different parts of the body. To study the human body, it's best to study each part, to know how they interact with each other. But, they are still part of the whole.
The timing aspect alone, is very important. The timing of WHEN to establish leadership, WHEN to communicate a boundary, and WHEN to reward for a desired behavior. They all have their proper place and time.
I don't have a problem with Cesar's "flooding" techniques. Since we can't "tell" a dog, there is nothing to fear, we can walk them through it, while keeping perfectly calm. This can also create a very trusting bond, if it is done correctly. I see a difference in a "brute force technique", and not allowing a dog to back down...the key word being "brute". Cesar is not a brutal man in anything I've seen him do. And, the dog would know it.
I used these same techniques with my own dog in situations where she would completely flip out. She's doing great now. But, people were really wondering what I'd gotten myself into with this one!
Another aspect of Cesar's philosophy which I understand, is through leadership, the dog immediately knows his place=one pressure taken off the dog, he knows his boundaries with just a word=another pressure taken off the dog, and once a fear is faced, you move on. The dog is able to get on with their life and start moving forward.
Although I also used counter conditioning with my dog, walking her through her fears, freed her from those fears much more quickly, than counter conditioning alone. IMO, every moment a dog no longer has to live in fear and instability, is a blessing.
Thanks Tessa. That was nice.
Ok. Good. Are you ready for some more?
Somehow I can't imagine you dragging your dog by the neck, while she is being strangled by a choke chain. I know you to be decisive, but not un-understanding.
Angelique. I luv ya so don't take this the wrong way or personally. Eh-hem. LOL. Ok...I'm so with you on the part about walking through something with a dog. So all about that. LOL. When a dog is apprehensive, about something and you act like it's not a big deal and act confident and just keep going, often, that is enough to put a dog at ease and decide that "hey...yeah...this is not so bad. I can get use to this." This is a great way when it's a fairly mild fear or situation. I've done that with my dogs at times when you just have to....you're out somewhere walking and you have to get through or past something. But when a dog is terrified, traumatized as that Lab was (don't know if you saw that episode) dragging her behind him, strangling the dog's neck because she had not one speck of belief in this "leader," was bordering on abuse IMO. The dog was in a high level of stress and did not improve for a very long time. Finally, probably due to a combination of disassociation and habituation, she came somewhat to grips with this, but certaininly didn't display the body language I have come to recognize in a dog who is happy, relaxed, trusting and unafraid. I've seen my share of dogs and have gotten use to what they're bodies are saying. That dog's tail was between it's legs, her back legs were crouched under her as she did not want to follow him through the room. Her head was lowered, her ears tensly held back. Her lips were drawn down. In other words, he was not walking her through her fears. He was intensifying them. Maybe not forever. She may well get accustomed to the floors with practice.
But what did that time frame of severe stress do to the dog? That experience happened. It can't be taken back. It leaves a mark somewhere, whether the dog remembers it or not. She probably won't remember the incident itself. But the association she made at that time with that fear and humans is probably going to be long lasting. This force and dominant way of communicating, I don't believe for one minute is relevant to how dogs communicate with eachother.
Confidence, leadership, strong encouragement, walking through something which is fearful...yes, I'm all for it. But that is not what I'm seeing with CM in many, many cases. He's not walking through. He's dragging through with force, unrelentingly....(not brutally). Sure he's calm, but the dog wasn't. I did not see a connection going on between the dog and him. How could there be when he is causing her pain? She looked completely detached from him and enveloped in fear.
He's a good looking guy, charming, smart and does his share of good things with some dogs, I'm sure. But there is way too much there that I cannot, even when I've tried....feel right about, especially when there are other ways which are more gentle as well as understood by the dog and his natural ways. And desensatizing an animal to something doesn't take that long. Most behaviors can be modified within about two weeks.
Talking about horses....I had two unbroken Arabian mares who I broke and trained in the last house I lived in before moving here 5 yrs. ago. They were especially fearful of a lot of things on the trail and otherwise. There is no way I could have gotten them to go past something by force, dragging them by the reins. They're way too strong for that. There's no way I would have attempted to sling a saddle on them from the get go without sacking them out first and working up from a pad, to an English saddle with no stirrups flopping around to finally a heavier western saddle. It took two weeks to make them ridable, know how to stop...another two weeks to learn trot, canter and leads and another couple months to get collection and smooth out things.
The first few times we went on a trail, we went with another horse which helped. Then we went alone. When we'd come to something on the trail which frightened them, I didn't turn and go back home or act unsure, but I didn't force the animal either because that would have caused a big ruckus and we'd get nowhere fast. I'd go past the object (maybe a burnt stump or something else which looked scary) at whatever distance the horse could handle, back and forth, getting slightly closer each pass, turning the other direction and coming back toward it from another angle etc.( I'd do everything I could not to have to get off and lead the horse lest she would discover a good way to get me off her back. LOL.) But back and forth, gradually getting closer, staying each time at a distance which wasn't too terribly scary. Finally, she'd get up close enough to be brave enough to go sniff the object and check it out. Then from that point on, she'd never be afraid of that type of object again. And she learned that I wasn't causing her trauma, so each subsequent fearful thing went a little smoother. They both turned out to be great trail horses who went over scary, wooden bridges and walked through big ponds etc.
Horse trailers were another big problem. So, instead of making a big issue with ropes behind their butts and trying to force them in, (I tell ya....they were about as wild as they come) they were only fed and watered in the horse trailer which was left in the pasture. Soon they became habituated to going in and coming out with no problem at all. They did it on their own schedule which only took a day or two.
I think desensatizing an animal so that he finds out all by himself that something isn't scary after all makes for a more confident animal in the long run...for possible future situations because he's using his own brain. Desensatizing makes the animal go up to the scary thing from his own will, not someone elses. When animal does something willingly, I think he learns a lesson better.
P.S. I understand about the leadership thing. But if someone is a good leader, the dog is most likely, except maybe for the most scary of all things, going to follow the person willingly, perhaps a little uneasily, but will forge on ahead. The dog won't have to be forced or dragged as that Lab was.
Ok. Good. Are you ready for some more?
Somehow I can't imagine you dragging your dog by the neck, while she is being strangled by a choke chain. I know you to be decisive, but not un-understanding.
Angelique. I luv ya so don't take this the wrong way or personally. Eh-hem. LOL. Ok...I'm so with you on the part about walking through something with a dog. So all about that. LOL. When a dog is apprehensive, about something and you act like it's not a big deal and act confident and just keep going, often, that is enough to put a dog at ease and decide that "hey...yeah...this is not so bad. I can get use to this." This is a great way when it's a fairly mild fear or situation. I've done that with my dogs at times when you just have to....you're out somewhere walking and you have to get through or past something. But when a dog is terrified, traumatized as that Lab was (don't know if you saw that episode) dragging her behind him, strangling the dog's neck because she had not one speck of belief in this "leader," was bordering on abuse IMO. The dog was in a high level of stress and did not improve for a very long time. Finally, probably due to a combination of disassociation and habituation, she came somewhat to grips with this, but certaininly didn't display the body language I have come to recognize in a dog who is happy, relaxed, trusting and unafraid. I've seen my share of dogs and have gotten use to what they're bodies are saying. That dog's tail was between it's legs, her back legs were crouched under her as she did not want to follow him through the room. Her head was lowered, her ears tensly held back. Her lips were drawn down. In other words, he was not walking her through her fears. He was intensifying them. Maybe not forever. She may well get accustomed to the floors with practice.
But what did that time frame of severe stress do to the dog? That experience happened. It can't be taken back. It leaves a mark somewhere, whether the dog remembers it or not. She probably won't remember the incident itself. But the association she made at that time with that fear and humans is probably going to be long lasting. This force and dominant way of communicating, I don't believe for one minute is relevant to how dogs communicate with eachother.
Confidence, leadership, strong encouragement, walking through something which is fearful...yes, I'm all for it. But that is not what I'm seeing with CM in many, many cases. He's not walking through. He's dragging through with force, unrelentingly....(not brutally). Sure he's calm, but the dog wasn't. I did not see a connection going on between the dog and him. How could there be when he is causing her pain? She looked completely detached from him and enveloped in fear.
He's a good looking guy, charming, smart and does his share of good things with some dogs, I'm sure. But there is way too much there that I cannot, even when I've tried....feel right about, especially when there are other ways which are more gentle as well as understood by the dog and his natural ways. And desensatizing an animal to something doesn't take that long. Most behaviors can be modified within about two weeks.
Talking about horses....I had two unbroken Arabian mares who I broke and trained in the last house I lived in before moving here 5 yrs. ago. They were especially fearful of a lot of things on the trail and otherwise. There is no way I could have gotten them to go past something by force, dragging them by the reins. They're way too strong for that. There's no way I would have attempted to sling a saddle on them from the get go without sacking them out first and working up from a pad, to an English saddle with no stirrups flopping around to finally a heavier western saddle. It took two weeks to make them ridable, know how to stop...another two weeks to learn trot, canter and leads and another couple months to get collection and smooth out things.
The first few times we went on a trail, we went with another horse which helped. Then we went alone. When we'd come to something on the trail which frightened them, I didn't turn and go back home or act unsure, but I didn't force the animal either because that would have caused a big ruckus and we'd get nowhere fast. I'd go past the object (maybe a burnt stump or something else which looked scary) at whatever distance the horse could handle, back and forth, getting slightly closer each pass, turning the other direction and coming back toward it from another angle etc.( I'd do everything I could not to have to get off and lead the horse lest she would discover a good way to get me off her back. LOL.) But back and forth, gradually getting closer, staying each time at a distance which wasn't too terribly scary. Finally, she'd get up close enough to be brave enough to go sniff the object and check it out. Then from that point on, she'd never be afraid of that type of object again. And she learned that I wasn't causing her trauma, so each subsequent fearful thing went a little smoother. They both turned out to be great trail horses who went over scary, wooden bridges and walked through big ponds etc.
Horse trailers were another big problem. So, instead of making a big issue with ropes behind their butts and trying to force them in, (I tell ya....they were about as wild as they come) they were only fed and watered in the horse trailer which was left in the pasture. Soon they became habituated to going in and coming out with no problem at all. They did it on their own schedule which only took a day or two.
I think desensatizing an animal so that he finds out all by himself that something isn't scary after all makes for a more confident animal in the long run...for possible future situations because he's using his own brain. Desensatizing makes the animal go up to the scary thing from his own will, not someone elses. When animal does something willingly, I think he learns a lesson better.
P.S. I understand about the leadership thing. But if someone is a good leader, the dog is most likely, except maybe for the most scary of all things, going to follow the person willingly, perhaps a little uneasily, but will forge on ahead. The dog won't have to be forced or dragged as that Lab was.
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Vega,
That's a great picture! How do you know Cesar?
I have a picture of Cesar and myself, which was taken at his seminar in Paso Robles a year ago. The seminar was great! I also got to meet Cesar's friend, Cheri Lucas. She has studied with Cesar for five years, and also maintains a large dogpack of up to 50 dogs.
Doberluv,
Ha-ha! No I didn't leash-pop and jerk poor little Tia all over the beach because she had a flip-out over the waves. Haven't you noticed how she cowers in fear of me?
I'll see your two wild Arabians, and raise you two Thoroughbreds and a Quarterhorse!
I didn't use conditioning methods on my horses during trail rides. You couldn't work up to an object gradually as you describe. On a trail, it was either forwards or back. Your right, there's no way you can force a horse, of course,(...sounds like the Mr. Ed theme song!). But, we got past every scary situation. I also can't stop and gradually desensitize a horse, and go through the whole routine again over every scary thing. Especially if there are riders in front and in back of me.
In situations like trailering problems, it's desensitization and positive reinforcement with food rewards all the way. But, how the person leads a horse, what they project as a leader, and what their body language communicates to the horse is also important. (I'm not indicating that you don't know this, but other folks are reading this conversation, too!).
The difference between Cesar's methods and gradual conditioning methods, is the way the leader takes the burden off of the dog, so they can walk through ANYTHING together, and each fearfull item doesn't have to be desensitized individually.
My dog Tia, is a naturally alert and wary breed, and I have to take this into consideration. If she startles at something now, she immediately looks to me for my reaction and calms right down. I have even learned a cool little technique that seems to work great with her. Sometimes when she startles, I'll do kind of a "play bouce". It's not the "play bow", but it's kind of a little bounce a dog will do with their ears tucked back in "mock fear" like a dog is saying "Oh, chase me, catch me if you can!", and she snaps right out of her concern. Kinda weird.
Aw, I luv ya back, too! Everytime we have these discussions I learn things and get better at explaining what I see going on with Cesar and the dogs he works with. I'm begining to think there is such a thing as "social drive" in all social animals. I'll have to get something started on how to break it down and get some input from you from your studies.
I've bumped into a few very experienced trainers while discussing Cesar on a few of the boards. They've all have had a major "I get it!" moments about what he is doing. There IS more going on, than meets the eye. It's just hard to explain it, but I'll always keep trying! His book is great! And, he has Patricia McConnell' "The Other End of the Leash" as a book recommendation.
Although I think YOU know this, when you hear me say "balanced methods", I'm not referring to an equal distribution of positive reinforcement and leash corrections, I'm referring to a balance between "dog psychology/communication and leadership/conditioning methods"...hey, am I hearing laughter from another forum?
That's a great picture! How do you know Cesar?
I have a picture of Cesar and myself, which was taken at his seminar in Paso Robles a year ago. The seminar was great! I also got to meet Cesar's friend, Cheri Lucas. She has studied with Cesar for five years, and also maintains a large dogpack of up to 50 dogs.
Doberluv,
Ha-ha! No I didn't leash-pop and jerk poor little Tia all over the beach because she had a flip-out over the waves. Haven't you noticed how she cowers in fear of me?
I'll see your two wild Arabians, and raise you two Thoroughbreds and a Quarterhorse!
I didn't use conditioning methods on my horses during trail rides. You couldn't work up to an object gradually as you describe. On a trail, it was either forwards or back. Your right, there's no way you can force a horse, of course,(...sounds like the Mr. Ed theme song!). But, we got past every scary situation. I also can't stop and gradually desensitize a horse, and go through the whole routine again over every scary thing. Especially if there are riders in front and in back of me.
In situations like trailering problems, it's desensitization and positive reinforcement with food rewards all the way. But, how the person leads a horse, what they project as a leader, and what their body language communicates to the horse is also important. (I'm not indicating that you don't know this, but other folks are reading this conversation, too!).
The difference between Cesar's methods and gradual conditioning methods, is the way the leader takes the burden off of the dog, so they can walk through ANYTHING together, and each fearfull item doesn't have to be desensitized individually.
My dog Tia, is a naturally alert and wary breed, and I have to take this into consideration. If she startles at something now, she immediately looks to me for my reaction and calms right down. I have even learned a cool little technique that seems to work great with her. Sometimes when she startles, I'll do kind of a "play bouce". It's not the "play bow", but it's kind of a little bounce a dog will do with their ears tucked back in "mock fear" like a dog is saying "Oh, chase me, catch me if you can!", and she snaps right out of her concern. Kinda weird.
Aw, I luv ya back, too! Everytime we have these discussions I learn things and get better at explaining what I see going on with Cesar and the dogs he works with. I'm begining to think there is such a thing as "social drive" in all social animals. I'll have to get something started on how to break it down and get some input from you from your studies.
I've bumped into a few very experienced trainers while discussing Cesar on a few of the boards. They've all have had a major "I get it!" moments about what he is doing. There IS more going on, than meets the eye. It's just hard to explain it, but I'll always keep trying! His book is great! And, he has Patricia McConnell' "The Other End of the Leash" as a book recommendation.
Although I think YOU know this, when you hear me say "balanced methods", I'm not referring to an equal distribution of positive reinforcement and leash corrections, I'm referring to a balance between "dog psychology/communication and leadership/conditioning methods"...hey, am I hearing laughter from another forum?
I do know what you mean and I do get it about having your dog trust you as it's leader and thus, feel that you would not be leading him into danger. So, he goes along with everything. However, I think there has to be a limit to even that, as I explained about the instinct of self preservation. I push my animals a bit too and they go along with a lot of things, most things. But if something is traumatically scary, I draw the line, such as with that Lab and his dragging her. She was not going along with him fearlessly. What do you make of that? Did you happen to see that episode?
For example: When I first got my Dremel tool, if I had just taken my dogs, forced them to lie down, taken their foot and turned on the loud, vibrating tool and shoved it right on their nails, that, to me would be unfair and most scary to them. I like to think my dogs trust me pretty darn well, as they do go along with a lot and get right over a lot of fearful situations. They too, look up at me for guidance. You should see Lyric whenever we meet new people or new places. He does look at me and assesses my countenance. Then proceeds favorably. Jose was barking at and appeared afraid of a weird looking tree stump the other day. He stopped dead on the trail. I picked him up, took him right up to the stump to show him....let him sniff it and find out it was just a piece of wood. Then he was fine....looked embarrassed. LOL! I didn't go through the counter conditioning in that situation.
But something as traumatic as the highly vibrating, noisy Dremel, I conditioned over about 3 days....starting out with running it while it was just set down. If the dogs looked at it, came up to investigate, treats were tossed to them and a happy voice. And then I would hold one dogs paw and hold the Dremel in the other hand....treat, praise and try one nail if the dog was Ok with what happened before that. And treat after each nail. And so on. If I had associated forcefully holding the dog against his will and going full on with the appliance, whether or not the dog trusted me, that's just asking too much. IMO. So, 3 or 4 days to be comfortable with a very scary thing vs. getting them to tolerate it under duress if done in 10 mintues....I know, I know....if you're a good leader, your dog will be happy to go along with absolutely everything. That's Ceasar's idea. But I just don't buy it altogether and I think it can be stressful to a dog and have the potential for some side effects and perhaps some regression later on.
I think a lot of people will watch his shows and equate domination techniques; pushing a dog on it's back, popping upward on the choke collar, pushing back with an intimidating sound...force.... with good leadership. That, I do not believe in and I don't think dogs operate that way, so that kind of communication in my way of thinking goes over their heads other than "I better do this. I have no choice." Not..."I better do this because good things happen when I do stuff my owner asks." That's how it is naturally, isn't it? I don't think the dog or wolf thinks, "I do it because he told me so." I really think something has to be in it for the animal. Of course, I'm joking when I put in these complicated thoughts the animal is thinking. But nevertheless, in some way, I think that has to be part of their make-up, that they know that something good will come of it.
Anyhow....like you always say and you're so right...everyone has to do what they feel in their gut is right or works best for them and their personality. I'm not exactly a push over and I let my dogs know what I want. But I do work within certain perameters which vary with different situations. And, like a true primate slip into that way of communicating more than I'd like to. LOL.
For example: When I first got my Dremel tool, if I had just taken my dogs, forced them to lie down, taken their foot and turned on the loud, vibrating tool and shoved it right on their nails, that, to me would be unfair and most scary to them. I like to think my dogs trust me pretty darn well, as they do go along with a lot and get right over a lot of fearful situations. They too, look up at me for guidance. You should see Lyric whenever we meet new people or new places. He does look at me and assesses my countenance. Then proceeds favorably. Jose was barking at and appeared afraid of a weird looking tree stump the other day. He stopped dead on the trail. I picked him up, took him right up to the stump to show him....let him sniff it and find out it was just a piece of wood. Then he was fine....looked embarrassed. LOL! I didn't go through the counter conditioning in that situation.
But something as traumatic as the highly vibrating, noisy Dremel, I conditioned over about 3 days....starting out with running it while it was just set down. If the dogs looked at it, came up to investigate, treats were tossed to them and a happy voice. And then I would hold one dogs paw and hold the Dremel in the other hand....treat, praise and try one nail if the dog was Ok with what happened before that. And treat after each nail. And so on. If I had associated forcefully holding the dog against his will and going full on with the appliance, whether or not the dog trusted me, that's just asking too much. IMO. So, 3 or 4 days to be comfortable with a very scary thing vs. getting them to tolerate it under duress if done in 10 mintues....I know, I know....if you're a good leader, your dog will be happy to go along with absolutely everything. That's Ceasar's idea. But I just don't buy it altogether and I think it can be stressful to a dog and have the potential for some side effects and perhaps some regression later on.
I think a lot of people will watch his shows and equate domination techniques; pushing a dog on it's back, popping upward on the choke collar, pushing back with an intimidating sound...force.... with good leadership. That, I do not believe in and I don't think dogs operate that way, so that kind of communication in my way of thinking goes over their heads other than "I better do this. I have no choice." Not..."I better do this because good things happen when I do stuff my owner asks." That's how it is naturally, isn't it? I don't think the dog or wolf thinks, "I do it because he told me so." I really think something has to be in it for the animal. Of course, I'm joking when I put in these complicated thoughts the animal is thinking. But nevertheless, in some way, I think that has to be part of their make-up, that they know that something good will come of it.
Anyhow....like you always say and you're so right...everyone has to do what they feel in their gut is right or works best for them and their personality. I'm not exactly a push over and I let my dogs know what I want. But I do work within certain perameters which vary with different situations. And, like a true primate slip into that way of communicating more than I'd like to. LOL.
I have not seen this particular episode, but I've seen his technique with several of these dogs and do know what you're referring to.
My perspective on this, based on my own experience, is this is not necessarily about the "fearfull" object or place, itself. This is about a dog locked in a very traumatized and unstable "frame of mind". The fearful object is just where the dog's instability manifests itself. JMO, but as totally "wrong" as it may sound, these are the dogs who need to "walk through the fire", the most. And, this can be very hard to watch! Very few people will use these techniques due to how other people will feel about THEM. But, this is usually to save the dog's life. If the family gives up, and the dog goes to a shelter, these are the dogs which will be put down and not be adopted.
Many of these dogs had already been worked with, using classical conditioning positive reinforcement methods by qualified trainers, who could not help the dog. These are dogs in need of rehabilitation back into a "normal" frame of mind, where regular training doesn't usually work until the dog is first stabalized.
When I decided on Tia at the shelter, they couldn't get a leash on her an get her out the door fast with me fast enough! The shelter knows me from the past adoption of another hard to place dog, which was also about to be put down. They didn't "screen" me or make me fill out anything more than a release form, either. They told me later when I took her back for a visit, they couldn't believe the change in her. When they had her for 10 days before I adopted her, they said all she would do is lock-up and shake all over in fear, just from being handled. Poor little gal!
Working with these dogs to save their lives is hard enough, without having to deal with people having emotional reactions and condemming you, because they don't understand. But, the needs and the life of the dog must come first. Watching a needle with the pink death go into a dog, and watching their life slip away, would be a much harder thing to watch, but we don't have to actually witness that part of it. *tears up*
I'm so glad Tia was not put down in favor of time and resources going to more adoptable dogs. She is one of the most intelligent and incredible dogs I've ever known!
Okay, *deep breath* off the soapbox.
This is a very realistic concern, which I share.
Cesar is working on a school to get more people trained to help at the hands-on level, and there are trainers coming forward who already understand what Cesar is doing. His book is selling out in some book stores as fast as they put it on the shelves. So, hopefully the viewing audience will also learn a little more about his entire philosophy.
My perspective on this, based on my own experience, is this is not necessarily about the "fearfull" object or place, itself. This is about a dog locked in a very traumatized and unstable "frame of mind". The fearful object is just where the dog's instability manifests itself. JMO, but as totally "wrong" as it may sound, these are the dogs who need to "walk through the fire", the most. And, this can be very hard to watch! Very few people will use these techniques due to how other people will feel about THEM. But, this is usually to save the dog's life. If the family gives up, and the dog goes to a shelter, these are the dogs which will be put down and not be adopted.
Many of these dogs had already been worked with, using classical conditioning positive reinforcement methods by qualified trainers, who could not help the dog. These are dogs in need of rehabilitation back into a "normal" frame of mind, where regular training doesn't usually work until the dog is first stabalized.
When I decided on Tia at the shelter, they couldn't get a leash on her an get her out the door fast with me fast enough! The shelter knows me from the past adoption of another hard to place dog, which was also about to be put down. They didn't "screen" me or make me fill out anything more than a release form, either. They told me later when I took her back for a visit, they couldn't believe the change in her. When they had her for 10 days before I adopted her, they said all she would do is lock-up and shake all over in fear, just from being handled. Poor little gal!
Working with these dogs to save their lives is hard enough, without having to deal with people having emotional reactions and condemming you, because they don't understand. But, the needs and the life of the dog must come first. Watching a needle with the pink death go into a dog, and watching their life slip away, would be a much harder thing to watch, but we don't have to actually witness that part of it. *tears up*
I'm so glad Tia was not put down in favor of time and resources going to more adoptable dogs. She is one of the most intelligent and incredible dogs I've ever known!
Okay, *deep breath* off the soapbox.
This is a very realistic concern, which I share.
Cesar is working on a school to get more people trained to help at the hands-on level, and there are trainers coming forward who already understand what Cesar is doing. His book is selling out in some book stores as fast as they put it on the shelves. So, hopefully the viewing audience will also learn a little more about his entire philosophy.
I saw him on a talk show and the host asked what she could do to get her dog to stop licking its paws and turning them raw and he said to walk it more, So this poor dog with chewed up allergy paws is being walked mroe making them even more raw. I admitt it made me laugh because soemone told me he says walk them more to fix everything.
Well, one thing is for sure Angelique. You and I both love our dogs and whatever it is we do, they've got it a lot better than a lot of dogs. So, even if we do things slightly different, or have different philosophies, our dogs have a good life. You've done wonders with Tia and she's lucky to have you...and you, her.
I don't agree with most of CM's ways of comminicating, but if that's the only way to prevent a lot of dogs from being wasted, that is better than nothing, to be sure. He certainly isn't brutal...just more forceful than I believe in, regardless of what is said to be behind it. I'm sure sometimes it's true that it is working and is good, but sometimes probably not.
Oh well...no more long posts from me on this one. LOL! I promise.
I don't agree with most of CM's ways of comminicating, but if that's the only way to prevent a lot of dogs from being wasted, that is better than nothing, to be sure. He certainly isn't brutal...just more forceful than I believe in, regardless of what is said to be behind it. I'm sure sometimes it's true that it is working and is good, but sometimes probably not.
Oh well...no more long posts from me on this one. LOL! I promise.