Can I still be boss to my dog?

[jacensolo]

My dog, Jack, is a very good dog most of the time. He does have this problem that if I tell him to do something he will only do it if he feels like it. But he knows he isn't alpha dog because my dad is. He does everything my dad tells him to do, and I'm the one that trained him! I know I can't take my dad's position because Jack realizes that my dad has power over me. I've been watching the Dog whisperer a bit and he has dealt with aggression quite a bit on that show. Jack has quite a bit of "aggression" but lately I've realized I think he does it for fun most of the time. I do take him for walks but they're not long enough and since I've started doing longer walks he's been a bit better. Though I usually don't let him go out in public (Especially without a halti, but I stopped using that because I realized I can control him without it) I decided today we would walk up to my grandparent's store. Like the show says, I stayed calm and tried to make him follow me most of the way, which was 2 miles. He didn't like to stay behind so once in a while he tried to walk ahead of me but I corrected it. Once we got there people asked to bet him and I'm usually a bit weary about people petting him but I stayed calm and said sure. I was amazed when Jack not only let them pet him without being unsure of them, but he wanted more when they stopped. I was relifed. He must have let 9-10 people pet him without a problem, and he let a dog pass by! This wasn't just because he was out of his territory because he usually growls at people on walks.

There are some people staying at my house that have been here for a week. He has been fine with them since the introduction - 3 kids and 2 women. One is calm and the other a bit nervous. I was upstairs with my door open about 4 hours after the walk. When they came in the door Jack ran downstairs to greet them. I thought nothing of it. He ran around them and came back the other side past the calm one again and nipped at the more skittish person. This is the first time he's ever shown aggression towards them, but definitely not the first time he's bitten somebody. I didn't see any reason to bite her, even though I didn't see it happen, except that she was nervous. That's not a very good reason. I was very mad that he did this the same day I thought we accomplished the great feat.

Anyways I think I have dominance over him on the leash, and if I was down there with him he probably wouldn't have bitten her. Again he obeys me, when he feels like it. Ultimately I want him to come when I say 'come' if he's halfway across the neighbor hood, like he does with my dad. I've tried positive reinforcement but if he has something on his mind (probably has something to do with being part Jack Russell) he will completely ignore me unless he's on the leash. Even if I have his favorite food. He knows what I mean because he does it with my dad, but since I'm not Alpha he sees no reason to listen to me. In a dog pack can I be boss over him but still be under my dad?

 

[otch1]

O.K. ... I'm going to be naughty here for a moment. There is too much testosterone all around in this post. Lol. You are getting the wrong messege when it comes to training/handling a dog. Jack, a dominant terrier whose bitten several people, Ceasar the alpha trainer, Dad, alpha member over you and you alpha member over the dog in the household. Your household/ family is not "a pack". While the dog needs to learn respect all humans and other dogs, he needs training that brings out his desire to please you and others. Big difference in owning a dog that wants to obey you verses has to obey you. In the dog only responding to the most dominant member of the household and no one else. I am guessing you are young, a teenager? I think it's outstanding that you are concerned about handling him, have a Halti, are willing to invest time in walking him and trying to modify his behavior, watching training programs. Since you've gone that far, it's time to find a qualified trainer to take your dog to classes with. Ideally, with you being the person handling the dog in class verses dad. It's time for a trainers help, now that the dog has bitten multiple people. You being as interested in training as you've expressed, being a Chaz member... just might be the person to help your dog! It's just important now, that you take a different approach adn work with a trainer. Good luck!!

 

[jacensolo]

I'm sorry if there is something wrong with being 15 and caring for my dog. He's my dog. When I got him my parents told him that he was my responsibility. I was 11 or 12 then so I did what I thought I had to do, obedience training, play and feed him. Now that I'm older I realize he needs more. The reason I have invested my time and my money is because he is my dog. He had to stay at the vet for 10 days because some idiot decided to come in my yard to greet the barking dog with hairs sticking up his back, his rabie shots were a month expired. That being said with me being in school I don't have the time or money to get a trainer. My mom can't take me because she's constantely busy. When I get my drivers license in a year I'll be able to do more things with him.

You mentioned there's a difference between a dog that wants to obey me and one that has to obey me. Of coarse there is. I want him to want to obey me. That's what I want to learn how to get him to do. I want him to want to obey me like he does my dad. I don't want to get a shock collar and teach him that way but if it gets more serious I'm afraid I'll have to. I don't want to do that. This is why I'm asking how to get him to want to obey me.

 

[Brattina88]

kudos to you for wanting to learn about training your dog... You've come to the right place We have lots of members on here who will post soon enough, and give lots of valuable information *grins*

and how old is he? 4? just curious...

I wanted to say right off the bat that I do not agree with Cesar Milan, and many of the members here agree with that. He uses harsh methods, physically controls the dogs, and does not teach them anything (but to fear and submit). We aren't a dogs "pack", because we are not dogs. And dogs know that we are not dogs. We need to be leaders, but we don't necessarily need to be 'alpha' and we don't need to dominate. A cool thing about dog training is we are the humans, and we can use our minds instead of our hands to teach the dogs what we want.

I wish you could go to some training classes, but since you cannot I'll offer some suggestions, and others will chime in as well.

First, I think you should start applying Nothing In Life Is Free methods to your daily routine. In doing that, you can practice your basic obedience that he 'already knows'. Use positive reinforcement and avoid punishment

you might want to try setting up little daily sessions (once or twice a day, even) to go through the basic commands as a 'refresher' course. To teach him what you want. Practice at first until he's reliable with you on a leash, with no distractions. Then move to where you have some distractions, and slowly / gradually work until he can do it under a lot of distractions before you can even think about letting him off of the leash.
remember: tell a dog what to do, instead of what not to do
for example, instead of scolding, or yelling "NO" for... lets say.. barking... Interrupt with an "eh-eh" say his name, or the attention word "Watch me" "sit." praise "quiet" more praise... you get the point (I'm getting tired, I apologize, I hope I'm making sense!!)

Have you ever heard of clicker training? You may want to look into it, and try it. The essential difference between clicker training and other reward-based training is that the animal is told exactly which behavior earned it a reward. This information is communicated with a distinct and unique sound, a click.


IMO the dog should not be off leash if not in a confined space if he does not listen to you. Its not safe for him, or anyone around him (unless I'm reading it wrong....)
Attention training - command like "Watch Me" or similar would be a good one to teach for your dog, since it sounds like he's not doing well with obedience when there are distractions

Its very possible that some of Cesar's methods, or the 'methods' your dad is using (care to elaborate?) are increasing your dogs anxiety / 'aggression'
I hope you feel free to stick around, and ask as many question as necessary to help you and your dog

 

[otch1]

Fair enough... I was afraid you'd take my post in the wrong way. I commend you for being responsible about this and seeking help. I was not being critical of you, but I did poke fun at some of the terms used in your post. I used "want to" verses "have to" because you used the phrase "boss to my dog" and you having "dominance over him on leash'. For that I apologize. You're right, it wasn't helpful. It is a legal liability for your parents to own a dog like this, one that's actually been quaranteened for a bite incident. If you/they are contemplating and can afford a shock collar, they can afford classes. Having a dog that's now bitten again is serious. It's the investment of their time that is probably the issue. If you are comfortable telling me where you are from, I might be able to refer you to a good trainer in your area. One that might take small payments for classes or possibly let you work it off by helping out a bit. I've let a handful of teenagers do this in my training program over the years and they were a big help to me. If you're o.k. with that email me. This is something you'll want the presence of a trainer on, verses getting advise over the internet.

 

[pancho]

Sometimes a person will try to help a young person. They are not saying there is something wrong with being young. Everybody was young at one time. It is usually easy to tell the age of a poster by the way they post. That is not saying there is anything wrong with it, it is just easy to tell the age.
There are many who will call their family part of the pack. They expect to be the alpha member of the pack. A dog should never get the idea that the owner is part of the pack. This will cause a problem in many ways and is just about guaranteed to cause problems in the long run. The dog should know you are the master, not part of the pack. People are not dogs, dogs are not people. People should be more intelligent than the dog.
Dogs have a hard time trying to obey a person if the person does not know how to tell the dog to obey. Most dogs will try to obey their master. If they do not know what you want it is hard to obey and they soon loose interest.
A training class would help a lot as long as you are the one who handeles the dog. A professional trainer can train the dog and the dog can learn what is expected. It still does not help if the owner does not know how to handle the dog.
It is very easy to train a dog, it is a lot harder to train the owner.

 

[otch1]

Well put Pancho... and again jacensolo, wasn't being critical of you at all. Hope you take me up on my offer to to find a trainer. Your dog is lucky he has you and your willing to invest the time it will take to correct this behavior.

 

[jacensolo]

Yes I have done clicker training and yes I try to obey the NILIF program. I loved clicker training because it was a fast, easy way to get him to do commands. Then I got him to do them without treats. The problem being with clicker training is he obeys when he wants too, not all the time. The NILIF program has been working well, but again that works when he wans something. What if he doesn't want food or affection or a toy, what if he wants that squirrel over there or wants to play with that dog when I can't get to him? Mainly this has been in his underground fence where nothing bad is going to happen to him but I still want to have control over him. I want control over him. This may sound very abusive in some sort of way but would you want your child to come to you and do what you say or go do pot? In a parent-child relationship the parents need to have complete control over the child, I feel the same way for Jack.

My dad didn't do any training or "methods". I trained him. every command he knows (he knows a lot) is because I taught him. The only thing my dad did is establish himself as boss and neither me or him can tell exactly how he did this.

I've been working on my own program though. He doesn't do anything unless my dad or I tell him to. This includes everything from walking to whining to eating. It seems to be working fairly well

I know many people on this forum only agree with positive reinforcement, but again if you tell a child he will get $5 if he does something he will do it unless he gets $10 for doing something else. If you don't want him to do that something else the only way you can get him to do what you want is discipline or consequences.

PS:OTCH1 - check your private messages

 

[otch1]

Just read your last post and got your email. Some interesting logic. It is certainly time for a trainer. Will try to refer you to a good trainer that will earn your respect, that you'll learn quickly from, as will your dog. Give me a day or two. Have a good weekend!!

 

[Brattina88]

The problem being with clicker training is he obeys when he wants too, not all the time. The NILIF program has been working well, but again that works when he wans something. What if he doesn't want food or affection or a toy, what if he wants that squirrel over there or wants to play with that dog when I can't get to him?

IMO, if a dog doesn't obey when under distractions -a squirrel, another dog- than he doesn't know it thoroughly enough. He's too overwhelmed by the distractions, and needs to be worked with on that. A dog doesn't weigh his options and 'chose' whether or not to listen, that's not how they think...

Mainly this has been in his underground fence where nothing bad is going to happen to him but I still want to have control over him. I want control over him. This may sound very abusive in some sort of way but would you want your child to come to you and do what you say or go do pot? In a parent-child relationship the parents need to have complete control over the child, I feel the same way for Jack.

Here is where we are going to disagree... and I'll agree to disagree... *lol*
Again, imo, you can't compare a child to a dog in this kind of a situation. If a parent has too much 'control' over a child the child is going to rebel... You keep mentioning control, control, but ideally you want to dog to be willing to please. There's a big difference between a dog who has been 'drill trained' and comes when you call because he knows he has to, and a dog who comes running when hearing the word, because he knows thats what you want, and/or there's something in it for him
I know how you feel - I want my dog to come running because odds are, when I call for her to come, its going to be important/urgent. I'm sure you can guess how I trained... erm... all of them (lol). And you bet they come running *grins*

I'm not really sure what you want us to say if you've 'tried all of it already' and it doesn't work... *L*
Did you read any of my links? j/w...

My dad didn't do any training or "methods". I trained him. every command he knows (he knows a lot) is because I taught him. The only thing my dad did is establish himself as boss and neither me or him can tell exactly how he did this.

Oh, okay then. Sorry if I misunderstood. I just remembered reading that your dog was afraid of your dad, and you mentioned that he listens to your dad because he knows he has to....

I know many people on this forum only agree with positive reinforcement, but again if you tell a child he will get $5 if he does something he will do it unless he gets $10 for doing something else. If you don't want him to do that something else the only way you can get him to do what you want is discipline or consequences.

a child, like a dog, needs to have boundaries. and there need to be consequences when the boundaries are crossed, but there's a difference between consequences and punishment. In psychology courses anyway

Some interesting logic. It is certainly time for a trainer.

ditto... and I hope something works out with a trainer !!



anyway good luck to you, and your dog

 

[Cheetah]

Has anyone mentioned yet that, positive or not, there CAN be more than one leader in the house? I have two dogs, and my boyfriend also lives here, and he is currently learning how to be another calm, gentle leader.

I do agree with some nice, positive training classes. Your dog should not be learning to ignore you until he feels like complying, but he is. This has nothing to do with respect, just that somehow he has learned that you can tell him to do something 5 times before he has to do it. I saw somebody on TV the other day tell a dog "sit, sit, sit, SIT!" before he made ANY move to sit.

 

[adojrts]

Hi Jacensolo;
Training a jrt or a jrt cross can certainly be a challenge!! So kudo's to you for trying and having some success. Now having said that they do tend to respond best to positive reinforcements and to clicker training, BUT it may take you longer than if you had another breed or type of dog. Jrts can be very quick to be aggressive or fear aggressive and they do like things done at their pace and on their time line, they really can be the masters of being dominant but they also tend be happier with a leader when handled and trained correctly.
I have at present 5 adult JRT's, I have owned many many more, I have rescued countless numbers and had as many as 20+ dogs living in my home ( most of them rescues, I don't have kennels) at one time, I have also bred and raised over 30 puppies and trained jrt pups for other breeders and shown them. Also have titled several dogs, including a National Ch. in tracking. I have known thousands of JRT's over the years and one thing that most of us have learned from them is how to deal with them and train them.
The one thing that really bothers me about Cesar and his methods..........he gets bit ALOT, and that is a sure sign of a poor dog handler or trainer in my opinion. I know for a fact that if I had done some of his methods with my dogs or especially the rescues (which btw usually come to rescue bc of aggression etc) I too would have gotten bit.
You can train a jrt to call 'off' and to have a solid recall with positive methods. Recently one of my dogs took off chasing a squirrel (btw I also hunt with my dogs) he was gaining on the squirrel and was out of my sight that fast (had witnesses as to what happened lol), I called 'OFF!!' and he did a 180 and came back to me, yippy skippy.
You are recieving some excellent advice from these good folks on here, and if I were you, I would run with it and take it. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
Take care
Lynn

 

[jacensolo]

Hi Jacensolo;
Training a jrt or a jrt cross can certainly be a challenge!! So kudo's to you for trying and having some success. Now having said that they do tend to respond best to positive reinforcements and to clicker training, BUT it may take you longer than if you had another breed or type of dog. Jrts can be very quick to be aggressive or fear aggressive and they do like things done at their pace and on their time line, they really can be the masters of being dominant but they also tend be happier with a leader when handled and trained correctly.
I have at present 5 adult JRT's, I have owned many many more, I have rescued countless numbers and had as many as 20+ dogs living in my home ( most of them rescues, I don't have kennels) at one time, I have also bred and raised over 30 puppies and trained jrt pups for other breeders and shown them. Also have titled several dogs, including a National Ch. in tracking. I have known thousands of JRT's over the years and one thing that most of us have learned from them is how to deal with them and train them.
The one thing that really bothers me about Cesar and his methods..........he gets bit ALOT, and that is a sure sign of a poor dog handler or trainer in my opinion. I know for a fact that if I had done some of his methods with my dogs or especially the rescues (which btw usually come to rescue bc of aggression etc) I too would have gotten bit.
You can train a jrt to call 'off' and to have a solid recall with positive methods. Recently one of my dogs took off chasing a squirrel (btw I also hunt with my dogs) he was gaining on the squirrel and was out of my sight that fast (had witnesses as to what happened lol), I called 'OFF!!' and he did a 180 and came back to me, yippy skippy.
You are recieving some excellent advice from these good folks on here, and if I were you, I would run with it and take it. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
Take care
Lynn

My dog knows his commands... he just chooses to obey them or not when I tell him to do it (mainly come). How did you teach your JRT to come back so quickly?

I'm also noticing that everybody thinks I follow Cesar completely. I think he knows what he's talking about but can do a lot of things better, particularly the choke chain and holding it like a "show dog". That IMO is just very wrong. There are some other things too, like his rehabilitation camp which doesn't involve the owner at all. But I think he understands pack leadership and snaps in front of the face to tell a dog he's doing something wrong isn't a bad thing as long as he doesn't hit or beat them.

 

[adojrts]

I don't think that you follow Milians methods completely, I was just giving my opinion of him and his methods since you mentioned him.
Now getting back to training jrts.......ok first off I always put a solid recall on very young pups (starting in the whelping box) it is much easier. Once they know they can tune you out and not obey, it is much harder (I know a no brainer lol). The trick to training them is you have to more interesting and more exciting and have something better for them or they will go off and do their own thing. I play a lot of watch me games with them, progressing to the point of when we are outside and they are distracted. Watch me, gets to me as fast as possible, make eye contact and they we play tug or other games and/or have an awesome treat for them. I also train for an 'off', again starting on simple things in the home, adding distractions etc, if the dog doesn't respond to the 'off' immediately I say 'hey, hey!! may clap my hands, the second the dog looks to me and leaves the distraction I give huge rewards and a 'good off!!". I always work in a controlled situation until I know both commands are beyond solid. This is no short quick fix, it takes time and dedication (it took me 2 years to get a solid recall/watch me/ off, on one of my dogs). I think the key is preparing to train at anytime around the house, I stash goodies all over the place in our home (up on shelves, bookcases etc) as I walk by I may take a moment to play 'watch me', or if I see a dog needing an 'off'. I also do a lot of training for agility (and now Rally-O), plus all my dogs are proven hunting dogs (they all enter/locate and work live quarry in the earth). You have to have a well trained dog while out hunting, they must have a recall and an 'off' for their own safety and for the safety of the other dogs in the field with us etc.
Sorry I am not the greatest at explaining how I do things. If I didn't make sense or make myself clear, let me know. Plus I am sure there is info on this site on training for an 'off' and 'watch me'.

Good luck
Lynn

 

[adojrts]

Jacensolo;
I am new to this site and I have been reading a lot of the older posts and threads when I get the time.
Have you read the thread 'Truely Great Training Advice'? Everything that you need it right there!! The posts are well written and worth every second that you read them (print them off).
If you don't understand something, ask. There is no dumb question, ever.
One of my fav saying is " Those who are green, will keep growing, those who stop growing will rot". In my opinion, that applies to everything and to everyone, the most dangerous person is someone who thinks they have 'it' all figured out and stops looking for better methods.
Take care and good luck
Lynn