Breeding questions/statements....

bozuhe3 · Dec 15, 2005

Hey all,

I wanted to state a feeling or belief that I have but at the same time not put down others that do not feel this way. I would like some education on this topic of Breeders.

I have always thought about breeding in a negative context. I guess I don't understand why people want to create more "perfect" animals when there are so many that need homes. I also never understood why people would pay money, and very high dollar for certain breeds for their pets. I kind of compare it to paying off friends. I don't pay my friends to be friends with me...

Like I said earlier, I am not trying to make people mad.. Please feel free to disagree and open my mind and show me some positives..

I have seen the negatives first hand. I have an AKC registerd Choclate lab who will be 4 in January. My cousin paid $500 for him when he was 6 weeks old and then after he got to be 100 pounds and 3 yrs old she decided he was too much to handle and gave him away. The lady she gave him too brought him back to my cousin and said he is just too big and her current dogs dont like him... well eventually I told my cousin I would take him in (march 05)

Since then I have never been more pleased with a decision I have made. He is the best dog. I love him!

I know that this is just one scenario that I happened to witness...but I just wanted to express my thoughts.. and maybe hear some other people's thoughts..

Thanks for listening to my 2 cents... please enlighten me. I am generally very open minded and respect other people's opinions even when they differ from mine.

Fran27 · Dec 15, 2005

I think the reason people want purebred dogs is because they are previsable. They know what they will expect with the breed, as opposed to mutts. And they buy them as puppies because they're cute, or they want to experience the whole life of their dog, or they just want to be able to train them as they want right away, instead of taking an adult dog with an unknown past.

About the breeding thing, someone posted the same thing a couple months ago, but in much less friendly terms - so thanks for putting in the effort to pass your message without agressing people like he did

I think the problem with your cousin was that he got his dog from an irresponsible breeder, to sell the puppies so young. And that's what we usually don't like about breeders either, here. The problem is that there are just way too many breeders who breed without caring for the standard, or even breed mutts, just to make a quick buck. It's in big part because of those people that so many dogs are in shelters now.

But there are ethical breeders too, and I think those are ok... For the ethical breeders, it's just about the passion of the breed. They research the breed so much that they only try to make the best puppies they can. They make sure the parents don't have any genetical problem, that they have a good temperament, and that they confirm to the standard. I think those people are great, and it's thanks to them that we still have those breeds today. They don't have many litters, and even though I understand that it's not a good thing to make more puppies with so many in shelters, I think that, for the people who are set on a specific breed, it's a good thing that there are still ethical breeders selling puppies, or the buyers would just end up getting their pups from bad breeders.

But I see where you come from. I really want to get another purebred puppy one day, and at the same time I don't think I can, because so many dogs need homes. So I will probably rescue again for my next dog. But I still think it's important to maintain breeds, and we need good breeders for that, or there would just be no more purebred dogs out there and we would never know what to expect with any dog, health and temperament wise.

I guess my point is that I'm 100% for making war against breeders, but the problem is the bad ones.

Mikey27X834 · Dec 15, 2005

Ever since I seen a friend's Mini, the dog I'm getting HAD to be a Mini Schnauzer just like hers. I never used to be interested in dogs at all, then I just fell in love with this breed after seeing my friend's. Every other dog I see doesn't set my heart a light like the Mini's do.

Anyway, that's why I am paying £650 on a pup in a couple of weeks. Is it paying for a friend? Sure. But I don't have much in common with people my own age, and need a friend.

showpug · Dec 15, 2005

I agree with Fran 100%.

Fran27 · Dec 15, 2005

Ugh I meant predictable in my first sentence.

Also, I forgot to mention that the main difference with ethical breeders also is that they guarantee to take the dogs back if for some reason the buyers can't keep them, so very few of them actually end up in rescues/shelters.

RD · Dec 15, 2005

Good post, Fran. I agree.

I haven't spread it all over forums yet because I'm not sure if this is the direction I'll ultimately go in, but I am looking at getting a Doberman Pinscher bitch. Pet puppies in this breed can cost up to $2,000 from reputable breeders and while I find that absolutely horrifying, I like the dog more than I dislike the price. And while I cannot predict exactly what my girl would be like, getting a dog that is a good example of the breed makes it at least a little more predictable. Does that make sense?

showpug · Dec 15, 2005

RD said:

Yes, it does. For the most part, the really reputable breeders are the ones that work to preserve temperment in their breed.

For example, not all my pugs are from good reputable breeders. One I got long before I knew anything and the other was from rescue. Both act VERY different from how my well-bred pugs from reputable breeders have acted. Now that I have gotten a chance to experience the two different kinds, I realize how much the better-bred pugs I have fit standard for temperment. I love them all, but the well-bred ones are the ones that truly act the way a pug is suppose to act and therefore are more predictable

bubbatd · Dec 15, 2005

I do feel that buying from a good breeder ( no ads !) will get you a healthier, well socialized pup . I was lucky, as I only bred 2 or 3 years apart and always had a waiting list. Granted, this was 15 years ago and the dog population has exploded since then ! It's so sad when new buyers don't think ahead !! That cute little puppy will be a dog in 12 months! There's a lot of work with a puppy.... otherwise they go to rescue where we savy ones find our heart dogs !

amymarley · Dec 15, 2005

I don't know the stats, so I won't pretend. I love all breeds, pure bred, or mutt. But from my own experience....and talk from other trainers in the business and some breeders and some K-9 police units.... It seems the pure breds don't live as long, have more health problems because of so much breeding.
NOW this is NOT to start a fight, but I would like some education, because I am not a breeder. But I did have a few pure breds in my life growing up. My first boxer came from a home (rescue) that had the mom/dad and pups, he died of cancer at 1 year 2 months old. My second, came from a rescue, that actually had papers, some champ. blood line (that I didn't register), I had him neutered (CHASE) and he was great until he got a brain disease, and a tumor around his pancreas. Before he got that, I had 4 tumors (benign) removed and mouth surgery with "lumps" all around his teeth...which turned out o.k.
I have a mix black lab/chow (he looks just like a black lab, but with a black tongue) since 1994...we rescued for our animal show. In 1994, he was already at least 2 years old.....at least. He is well, hyper, active and fun. Out of our shows, we rescused at least 130 dogs.....at least. All but 5 were mutts....one was actually Beethoven's son, from the movie. All had severe problems, but the mutts live on...
My question is.....why is that? Is it bad breeding, over breeding...etc... I know that problems can be created no matter what, but considering the stats. that I have above, the pure breds have less of a chance. And this is not also me putting in the friends and relatives that have purebreds and that have problems.
Again, I am not starting a war, but would love some prospective from some breeders, or people who are really knowledgeable about breeds to shed some light and their thoughts. Thanks in advance.

Mordy · Dec 16, 2005

animalbiz, it's the genetics that come into play here.

purebred dogs have a relatively small, restricted gene pool and the chances for the "bad" parts of each parent's genetic makeup being passed on are much greater.

i don't want to keep it really simple, so this isn't going to be a highly scientific explanation, but for certain traits to appear, an animal must inherit the genes from both parents. traits can be things like coat color or pattern etc. but also the manifestation of genetic defects. say you have two parent animals who each only inherited half of the genes required to express such a defect fromt heir own parents, then it will not become apparent, but if these two are bred, each puppy that receives one half of the "bad" genes from each of the parents will have the defect, while those puppies who only receive half of the bad genes from one parent, or none at all, will not be affected, but those in which they are present will be carriers once again while the ones that didn't receive any of the "bad" genes at all are free of the problem and will also not pass it on to their offspring when bred.

all pure breeds were developed from a limited breeding program at some point, so the more generations you have since that happened, the smaller the gene pool becomes because no new blood is ever introduced, unless someone outcrosses to another breed, which is of course not accepted by the registries like AKC etc. which have closed stud books and care more about "purity" of the breed than health of a breeding program.

mixed breeds are not inherently healthier than purebreds, but their gene pool is much larger. we have to distinguish between "crossbreeds" and "mutts" tho, since there are completely different backgrounds of breeding them:

1. crossbreeds
are crosses of two pure bred dogs of different breeds. this is the "recipe" to most "designer breeds" that have become so popular. with the crossbreeding there is of course less chance of passing on a genetic defect that is inherent to a particular breed, but if you breed two dogs of two different breeds that each have similar defects, the puppies will not automatically be healthier. this is a huge scam these "designer breeders" are trying to sell to ignorant people. if dog A has luxating patellas, is prone to certain cancers, allergies and seizues and is bred to dog B who also has luxating patellas and is prone to certain cancers, allergies and seizues, their puppies will not miraculously be healthier. it doesn't work that way.

example: poodle x lab = "labradoodle", pug x beagle = "puggle" and so on.

2. mutts (not to offens anyone, but for lack of a better term i'm using the word)
are the offspring of many different "combinations" of parent animals, such as for example two parent animals that aren't purebred themselves, or one purebred and one of completely unknown parentage. the gene pool is huge and the chance of genetic defects being passed on to the offspring from both parents is relatively low.

examples (dogs of friends of mine):
"hobo" - dam was a standard schnauzer x collie cross and the sire a GSD x rottweiler cross.
"allie" - dam was a border collie, sire (as far as we know/suspect) a mutt of unknown parentage.

the difference between good, responsible, ethical breeders and irresponsible breeders is that the good ones will research their breeding program in great detail to avoid breeding unsuitable animals to each other who are likely to pass on defects, and with much effort these people can decrease such problems in their bloodlines. it may come at the expense of that "perfect" set of ears or desirable, flashy markings, but let's be honest, which is more important?

the sad thing is that registries like for example the AKC don't care much about stuff like that and don't rigorously weed out animals that aren't really suitable for breeding.

bozuhe3 · Dec 16, 2005

Thanks all for your open minded discussion and points. I can much more enjoy everyones opinion when it is an open setting verses a judgment on all people who think differently.

I have to say I personally would never pay for a dog- but then again I am also getting the milk for free- technically.

I have 2 pedigree's that have landed in my hands by accident.. so I am getting the good without paying..so
maybe you guys have a point about hte temperment cause they are the best (both chocolate labs)

I also can understand when you find a breed you like - it just kinda happens. I am endeared to labs .. Before these two I had what I call a Labusky- Lab/Husky mix. ha ha

ok well. Thanks again!
I enjoy hearing the positives and it is nice to hear that some people really enjoy the breeding and is not all just a business of trading pets for money.

No slam on people who pay either (mikey).. a friend is a friend-

Have a great day all!

casablanca1 · Dec 16, 2005

bozuhe3 said:

I'm getting into this kind of late, but it was too interesting to pass up. While I dislike the AKC, there are good reasons to continue to breed pure-bred dogs and to buy them. Health and physical and mental soundness are a big issue. A well-bred cocker is just as likely to have ear infections as a shelter cocker, but it's going to be easier to get a nice cocker from a breeder than from a shelter, especially for first-time owners and people who may have had dogs before but still aren't particularly astute about judging temperments.

When I see the perfect suburban family with their perfect purebred puppy, everyone as nicely groomed as a prince, my instinct is to question why these ordinary people, who don't hunt, herd, etc., need a specially designed pet when they could do just as well with a shelter dog. But I have to admit that I don't know their circumstances. Maybe they're easing into dog ownership in the safest way they know, maybe they're planning to have a baby soon and want as close to total safety as they can get, maybe they're just tired from fighting a losing battle with a former dog's health, soundness or behavioral issues and wanted a dog from lines that will eliminate most of the risk of getting that problem again.

lilym · Dec 16, 2005

My dog is a mutt - an accident at a dog show - between 2 dogs owned by the same breeder - just 2 different breeds.

The breeder didn't want mixed puppies so took them to a Kroger parking lot and left them at just a few months old. The reason I know this is that the pups had been seen by a vet 2 weeks before I came into the same vet's office with a dog I had just saved from the shelter. Everyone in the vet's office remembered the puppy.

The vet called the breeder who made excusses for why they would do such a horrible thing, and after he got off the phone, he said he wasn't their vet anymore.

Basically they didn't think that the lives of these little puppies were worth an extra 20 minute drive to drop them off at the shelter themselves. They put them in a box in a crowded parking lot. My puppy was the only one turned in at the shelter so who knows what happened to the rest of the litter.

I agree that bad breeders are the problem. I love my mixed little mutt with all of my heart and how someone could be so uncaring about his life simply because he isn't pure is incredibly sick in my opinion.

That makes me a bit biased against breeders, but you are all correct in making a distinction between good breeders and bad breeders.

Mordy · Dec 16, 2005

Mordy said:

ugh, typo!! i meant to say "i don't want to make this too complicated and am trying to keep it simple".

sorry about that.

bubbatd · Dec 16, 2005

Boz.. I was A Golden Retriever owner for about 25 years before I decided to breed them. I had a wonderful male and a female from a show breeder. I wasn't into showing, but wanted a male from the two because of their wonderful disposition, looks, etc etc and had many people saying they would like to have one of my dogs. My main reason for my limited breeding was to keep my line going ...To me, a BYB is not responsible ... as to health checks, proper whelping and most important, the socialization and care of the pups from day one until their 8th week. Some people would rather buy from a breeder where they know their pup has had it's best start. I haven't bred for over 10 years , and will no longer. I will not buy from a Golden Breeder now because I have no reason for show quality prices with a breeding program. I will never buy from a Golden BYB ... I'm now into rescueing those who have slipped through cracks and need loving care.

Fran27 · Dec 17, 2005

I have to add though, about the whole 'don't want to pay for a friend' thing, you still pay for them at shelters and rescues... and sometimes actually more than you would from a BYB.

I see people say they wouldn't pay $200 for a mutt, but I got mine for $250 from a rescue, and I think he was worth every penny!

bubbatd · Dec 17, 2005

I agree.. I like rescue and am willing to pay their prices as you can learn more about the dog and it's been evaluated . Our Goldens in our Rescue sell for about that price and three that I fostered went through $600 plus of Heartworm treatment, shots and spay and neutering.

Gwinnywillow · Dec 20, 2005

Registries have nothing to do with breeding. Anymore than the dept. of motor vehicles has anything to do with car defects. The breed clubs are the ones that bear the onus of striving toward more genetically healthy dogs.

bozuhe3 · Dec 22, 2005

Yes "paying for a friend part" - I might should take back.. ha ha I have gotten all 3 of my pets for free-(found them)
but yes animal shelters can gte expensive.. but even that aside.. I currently have a $2000 pet credit card.. for shots, surgery, medicines.. it has added up over the last year...

So you are gonna pay either way... Good call on that point.

Mikey27X834 · Dec 22, 2005

Well what you said didn't offend me at all.

You can pay for a pup, but you can't pay for the love.

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