Breeding for sports

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Laurelin, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    It all comes down to what you want in a dog. There are well rounded breeders out there, as well as short sighted breeders. There is also breed type. In Dobermans (for eg) there are 3 distinct types. South American, North American, and European. I could give you multiple examples in each type that are Am Ch's and at least SchI. Same with ATCH and Ch examples.

    There is no black and white.

    As for opening stud books, I am against that. It sounds great but we are making good strides in testing and breeding away from diseases. It is not as easy as simply breeding to another breed. Genetics does not work that way. If we could mix breed to cure dobermans of cardio I would say sure, but it won't happen. The puppies can/will still get the cardio genes from the dobe side, not to mention any issues from the out cross breed. D&Co I think the idea is good but not as simple as you are making it out to be.
     
  2. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    I agree, and there are a few breeds that I feel that breeders either need to start outcrossing in order to save them from further damage, or just stop, but none of them would be ready for a sport ring for several generations :rofl1:


    I just hope that there can be a middle ground where dogs can have the "show dog look" and the brains to do sports with.
     
  3. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Well with Dalmatians specifically, it actually WAS that simple to address abnormal uric acid metabolism. The abnormal gene is (was) a fixed homozygous recessive and introducing the normal dominant gene back into the population was possible with a single outcross. Sadly it took decades for the breed club to allow descendants of that outcross to be registered with the AKC. Lots of information available out there about LUA Dalmatians.

    Now most problems aren't going to be that simple. But this one was, and it was apparently more important to maintain the holy closed stud book than accept the progeny of a single outcross to improve the health of the breed until just a few years ago. Bad taste, meet mouth. On my bad days I doubt it would be any different with a similar scenario in any other breed. *shrug*
     
  4. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    There is absolutely no reason that dogs can't do both, it's just a matter of breeding for the whole package. Well, and some breeds really aren't that suited for sport, so a person who wants to compete with that breed needs to accept that. Changing a breed to make it fit a game is wrong.

    But most breeds can both look like the breed they are, and perform in various dog sports. Tooting my own dog's horn, my bitch Tess. UWP UAGII AKC/UKC CH Flyin DayDream Londons Burning CD MX MXB MXJ MJB OF CA RATN AAD CGC TT. At our recent National Specialty, she was Best Opposite in Veteran Sweeps, 2 of 3 days. Best Veteran Bitch, 2 of 3 days. Ran agility the 2 days offered, qualified in Masters JWW both days. Qualified and placed in Rally Novice both days offered. Didn't qualify in Open obedience, but put in a good showing.

    The following weekend, her first official Barn Hunt trial, in 4 runs, she finished her Novice title and got the first leg on her Open title. This would probably be the closest thing to an "original function" test we have available. (while not their primary task, they were used for ratting.)

    [YOUTUBE]Gpxj6OV1cAs[/YOUTUBE]

    There's nothing wrong with this dog's brains, or physical abilities, and she is down from generations of show dogs. And the thing is, there are lots of great dogs like this out there, in many breeds.

    I can tell you that in this breed, I wouldn't get a dog that was bred specifically for sport, as the ones that are bred for the total package are better for sports.
     
  5. D&Co

    D&Co New Member

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    i disagree, it can be that simple, stud books in other animals eg horses have been open and closed several times over and the planet just kept turning.

    some europeans will openly cross breed they want into their lines to keep them super working dogs for SWAT, leo, special forces, high level sport...pups from the same litter get sold as different breeds (all herder).

    nobody buying them really cares and it is a bit of a joke that they get papers in different breed registries.

    i know a lot of dogs that go to gov agencies in a crate with the papers/ped stuck to the crate, they take the dog and hardly ever look at or remove the papers from the crate. the crate gets shipped back with no dog and papers still flapping in the breeze, nobody cares about them, they just want to get the dog out.

    so what exactly would we lose if intelligent people that understand a breed and breeding make an outcross to another breed to mitigate a known health problem and have a known solution...


    i'm dumb explain it to me????
     
  6. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    In the 2 breeds i have been looking at the most I have found breeders that do both as well, for myself I want beauty and brains. I bought a dog from show lines once, and he was beautiful, but....well :rofl1: just not doing that again.
     
  7. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    It's to be remembered that in some breeds, the show breeders have lost their way. They are breeding dogs to win, not to the standard. To some degree, that is happening with the Stafford in the US. The US judges don't really know the standard, and are being encouraged to pick the stockiest dogs with the biggest heads. So breeders who put show wins over all, are not breeding to the actual standard. This has happened in a much more exaggerated way in some other breeds.

    Wanting dogs bred to the standard is not the same at all as wanting dogs bred for show. There are breeds where I wouldn't dream of owning a show line dog. Breeds (like mine), where I prefer a dog bred for show, but from certain lines. And breeds where the show lines are true to the standard.
     
  8. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    I hear you, in that particular breed at that time at least (still is I believe) there is no difference, and even now very few people trying to even get CGN on them, which I find very sad.
     
  9. D&Co

    D&Co New Member

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    OT, has anyone got a link to the official rules of barn hunting? and a good site explaining it.

    cheers any info.
     
  10. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    http://barnhunt.com/
     
  11. D&Co

    D&Co New Member

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  12. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    i have no issue with people using and breeding cross breeds for a purpose like you were saying. Health testing being done of course. ;)

    For sake of argument (so my opinion is clearer) lets say we decided to open the dobe books to rotties because maybe that would help.

    Rotties are known for cancer, since genetics are incredibly complicated you have NO idea which genes could be passed on to the puppies. You could be breeding in better hearts into the dobes (and that is a huge maybe) but you very well could be breeding in cancer genes (yes cancer in some cases has been linked to genetics). On the flip side you could be breeding out cancer in rotties but breeding in the heart problems.

    If genetics were simple your idea would work, but the aren't. Its the same reason hybrid vigor is a myth. You simply do not know which genes are being passed down, its a crap shoot.

    Now from a strictly temperament/drive stand point then it can and does work.

    Horses are a bit different. As a show jumper I don't really care what breed Im ridding as long as it can do the job. Horses are a very different mind set. But if you went up to a QH person who does halter seriously and told them to mix in a new breed to make a better horse they would not take it lightly

    The majority of conformation people health test and are honestly doing their best to breed away from health issues in the breed, and breed into the longevity. Its a slow prossess and is not going to be fixed over night. Out crossing breeds would not be a quick 100% fix either, no were near.

    Also in sports, conformation, working, ect.. certain bloodlines are coveted for their ability to do well in said event, or breeding. People don't want to mess with that.
     
  13. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    It's good to remember that crossbreeding isn't the be all end all of health in horses either. Impressive, the prolific quarter horse stallion to whom the genetic disease HYPP can be traced, had a thoroughbred sire and quarter horse dam. Arguably the worst hereditary illness to hit the breed is linked to a "crossbred." Breeding registries that were open to breeding in quarter horses such and Paints and appaloosas then had to contend to HYPP being introduced into their gene pools.
     
  14. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I'm only going to echo what others have said but I think that for a lot of breeds, the modern working dog is the sport/performance dog.

    Agility is a great example, that sport is huge. Why not breed (and crossbreed) with the aim of producing a top agility dog.

    Ofcourse there are things I think we need to remember. First and foremost, as mentioned before, breeding for only 1 thing (drive, conformation, working ability) above all else will lead to issues. (lack of offswitches, loss of working drive, unbalanced temperments - for example) and we have to remember to be breeding all round good dogs.

    In the past we have always developed breeds to excel in particular fields and area's that we desire/require them to excel in. One of these modern fields is performance/sport. Why not aim to create dogs that excel in it?
    There are rooms for more breeds, and in the future we will loose breeds that are no longer viable.


    I would rather see new, healthy, balanced breeds be developed and utilised for modern purposes than older, unhealthy, under/non utilised breeds being bred for no real reason other than preservation.
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    All of my dogs have been show bred and my current two mentally have a great temperament for sports. Summer especially. She is from an average show breeder who shows locally and whose dogs finish championships but she doesn't campaign them at the national level. Honestly, having been around many papillons hers are some of the best temperaments.

    Like I said before, many of the really big name papillon people in the agility world (the type that are winning national championships and making the world team) also show their dogs.
     
  16. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Hybrid vigor isn't a myth. As a former genetics student, this drives me nuts! Heterosis isn't something all hybrids will exhibit but it definitely does happen. It is traditionally referring to 'hybrids' across species (like a beefalo) or the case of sickle cell anemia where the hybrid (carrier) has a distinct advantage over the homozygous dominant (non carrier).

    Increased genetic diversity is a good thing overall for any population though. I think a lot of breeds could benefit from it in the long run. Is it going to magically fix everything right away? No.

    LOL my thread spawned a monster. I was really just trying to hypothetically find a situation where breeding against the show standard was beneficial to sports and mull that around in my head.
     
  17. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    It's breeding, of course it became a monster. lol
     
  18. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    IF the genetics/inheritance of a particular problem is understood, then the inheritance/genetics of that particular problem is NOT a crap shoot. Sometimes genetics ARE that simple - like the LUA Dalmatian example. A genetically well understood, simply inherited problem with an easily introduced genetic improvement with a single outcross. How often do/will breeds have an opportunity like that, with such a simple fix? And yet look how people reacted. I realize that's one breed/club and one example, but it speaks sad volumes to me about human nature, the true relative importance of health vs. closed studbook in purebred dogs, and resistance to outcrossing.

    Merles/double merles, and MDR1 inheritance are other examples of simple dominant/recessive traits whose inheritance is well understood and can be easily selected for/against. So sometimes, yes, genetics are that simple.

    So IMO "should we crossbreed" isn't even a relevant question until "what is the inheritance of problem xyz?" is answered. And there are lots of inheritable diseases that are being studied right now to try to determine that.

    Now, most of them are not going to have that simple, single-gene inheritance. And some of the problems themselves are not simply identifiable - eg "cancer" (mammary cancer? osteosarcoma? hemangiosarcoma? lymphoma?).

    But even still it seems crazy to me to stubbornly cling to a known problem for fear of possibly introducing another problem. Genetic diversity is never a bad thing. Better the devil you know, I guess.
     
  19. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    There absolutely can be.

    Auggie's grandma, Payton's great-grandma, is Ch MACH4 PACH CD RN HS HIAs HXAs VCX

    Auggie's dad is Ch MACH4 HSAs NAP NJP VCX

    Both of these dogs have spent their entire lives on a farm working sheep too.


    It can be done and in fact I greatly prefer it, and was the idea behind picking Payton as well. The difficulty is that trialing dogs in multiple venues can be difficult and expensive. If I wanted to Ch Payton I would probably have to hire a handler for him, and letting somebody else handle my dog sounds like the opposite of fun so I don't think I'll do it. But yes, there certainly can be a best of both worlds. It's just not super common in some breeds...
     
  20. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    nextdog I want to do both with, but since im in Canada and out Ch are, well kinda easy to get that will be the first thing we do.
     

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