Border Collie Question

[mwood322]

Male vs Female Temperment


Copied from New England Border Collie Rescue Site
http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/NABCRN/Adoption.html

THE DOGS WE GET: Most dogs we get into rescue are males between the ages of about 10 months and 3 years. Male Border Collies usually make better pets--their temperaments are generally more stable than the temperaments of Border Collie females, who tend to be either snappish or aggressive, or extremely sensitive or timid. So, consider a male, especially if you already have a female. We very rarely get puppies. We often have older dogs between the ages of 4 and 10. Please be aware that the Border Collie is a very slow-maturing breed, and that dogs of even 10 or 12 years of age are usually still very active. Furthermore, it is a very long-lived breed. When you get a dog from rescue you are not only getting yourself a companion, but you are doing a good deed and helping a dog in need. So please, consider an older dog.​

Does anyone agree with the male vs female thing?

I've seen this listed a few other places too, but it seems that if the males were better pets why are there always more males in rescue than females? I've been looking into both BC and Aussies and seem to keep finding this mentality, and don't really understand it. I want another female dog, but are they really snappish comparatively, or are they trying to place the males since they don't get females?

--Mia

 

[Athebeau]

It really doesn't have any thing to do with male vs female. Both are products of their environment and breeding. I could sit here and say that all male Newfoundland dogs are laid back and the females are more lively...this isn't true at all It's mainly this kind of misconception that people remember though.
I have dealt with thousands of border collies, they are very common. I get them in for boarding, grooming etc. Many of my friends have Border Collies, funny thing is they are mainly all females as sometimes females are easier to fit in with a multi dog household. My friends use their border collies for agility and a few even use their border collies to work on their farms. In my many dealings with Border Collies I have seen good on both sides, I have seen extremely highly motivated border collies (border collies which are perfect for working often do not make good pets...their eye stalk is too intense )....I have seen border collies which have not been properly socialized be fearful in adult life. I have met many more which are bold, easy going and I have never ever been nipped at or growled at by a border collie

temperaments of Border Collie females, who tend to be either snappish or aggressive, or extremely sensitive or timid

That is ridiculous. I must let my friends who own female border collies (one rescued as an adult from a puppy mill - she was used for breeding and by the way is very stable).
You can make or break any dog within the critical period of socialization.

I hope I helped you a little bit.

 

[mwood322]

Thank You.

I've been thinking it was a nutty way to categorize them, but since they are a rescue that specializes in border collies I thought I should ask.

I suspect it's because they get so many males that they are trying to downplay females. I've noticed the same on some breeders websites. They say the males make better pets, but their female puppies are always on hold first, even though the males are often cheaper???

No I'm not going through a breeder, I want another rescue dog, but thank you for telling me it is probably a biased opinion. I want a BC but am probably not going through that rescue due to some of their other policies.

--Mia

 

[RD]

I agree with Athebeau. Neither sex makes a "better pet", it probably is a biased opinion. On the breeders' websites, I -know- they do that because females are more in-demane than males, just due to their ability to have a litter. (And, of course, to the BYB, a litter means $$$. The breeders who have things like that on their sites are probably the type of breeders that sell all puppies on full registration regardless of their potential or flaws. Anything for a buck.)

I do notice a slight personality difference between female and male BCs (BC bitches are called bitches for a reason. Dear GAWD they can be drama queens! Not saying boys can't, but girls have a tendency to be moodier. I can see where they say that BC girls can be nippy, they do get a bit bossy sometimes with other dogs but a good BC bitch would never do such a thing to a person.) but when well bred and socialized, both make equally excellent partners/companions.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

My Tippy is mainly border collie, and she is not snappy, nippy, yappy, or aggressive. She doesn't like strange dogs but she wouldn't hurt a human.

 

[bubbatd]

I agree with RD... any of my females were more " b*tchy " than my males. Also, I really hate to see a puppy site that asks more for their females ...just shows that the buyers might breed. This may be fine with established breeders, but not with BYBs.

 

[joce]

I wouldn't ignore it completely. I have heard breed diffrences are diffrent in most herding breeds. In corgis the females are dominent and act more like males in most breeds.The males are the laid back ones. I've never heard anyone argue it wasn't true. Of course some individual dogs are diffrent but overall it very well could be true.

And when I thnk about it all the nice boarder collies I have met have been males.I've only met a few females and they were a little mroe "wired",which is why they probally end up in rescue mroe because that is not what the average owner wants. I know with the corgis every show i go to the they all say the same thing so maybe see what other breeders and handlers have to say.

 

[Gempress]

There's one main difference I've noticed between my male and female dogs. The males can be more obviously stubborn than females, but once it's overcome, it's forgotten. For example, in training they sometimes won't do the command if they don't feel like it. And it will take a while to overcome it But once you finally make it clear that they WILL have to do it, they'll shrug and do it without complaint: "Ok, since I have to, I'll do it."

With female dogs, they're a more "creative" stubborn, and they do not conceed defeat very easily. It's hard to describe except in example, so here's a good one:

If my female golden was on-leash and I tried to walk her in a different direction from where she wanted to walk, she'd literally lift up one front leg and deliberately tangle herself in the lead. While I stopped and unwound the leash from her legs, she'd give me a completely innocent look: "Oops! How in the world did that happen?" As long as I persisted in that direction, she'd keep tangling herself. When she finally realized that nothing she did would change the walk, her whole demeanor would change. She'd stop the leash trick, but she acted very huffy and kept giving me evil looks: "Fine, I'll go this way, you *insert explicative here*."

 

[bubbatd]

LOL!!! I'd get it from my females when it was time to go " car-car " ... the boys would just jump in and the females would take their own sweet time,,, rubbing their butt on the bumper, looking around and yawning or whatever. They did things in their own sweet time.

 

[apmnally]

every dog has its own personality no matter what breed some breeds are more stubborn than other just by genetics but they do have there own personalities i work at a rescue in australia and we also get more male border collies than females and it is because people buy them cause they are cute and then dont realise how active they are and then turn them in to us as for more males its because in most border collies there will be more males in the litter than females its the same deal with humans females are harder to make than males due to the fact that anything female has a uterus and needs to be able to reproduce which makes it a little harder for the dogs to successfully concieve and carry females if there is a perfect match with the male and female and they are in top condition than its more likely to get a couple of girls in the mix but as for males being easier than females once either is desexed and trained properly either way they are tops dogs to own they will be your best friend forever

 

[BlackDog]

Most if not all the BC I know are male. They are great pets but HIGHLY active if you have a purebred. One of my long time friends has a mix. He's parents were both BC's. One of his great grand parents was a Dalmation and the other a BC. Everything else in this history is a BC. Sounds to me like the breeder or owner let her bitch in season outside and the neighbors dalmation took over. Maybe I'm wrong but whatever. Anyhow, you would expect this dog to be really hyper right? He's not. He just lays around the house all day and goes in the backyard a few times. That's it. Weird indeed.

 

[mwood322]

I've only met a few females and they were a little mroe "wired",which is why they probally end up in rescue mroe because that is not what the average owner wants.

But the rescue says more males end up in rescue than females, that is my question. If the males make better pets, why do they get more males into rescue than females?

Are males really more likely than females to be born?

--Mia

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

Why more males end up in rescues I don't know, but I would guess it's the breed's energy level - border collies are VERY high-energy. I can't remember ever meeting another border collie, because not many people around here have them. With Tippy though, she is calmer in the house and much more active outside. If I put my shoes on she goes nuts. She loooves her walks.

Tippy is very stubborn. All three of mine are though, including May, my lab. They're all females and they're all stubborn little brats LOL.

 

[joce]

A friends neighbors female border collie was put down instead of going to the rescue(and this was years ago or I would have taken her!). Generally when you say nippy,or they have bit,a regular shelter automatically puts them down and then the rescues go and get what makes it to the shelter. Maybe thats why there are more males. I sure hope not though If its like corgis the girls may work out better in there working homes or make there way to one before going to rescue.

 

[filarotten]

I had a female bc when my son was about eight. I think she was one of the best dogs I ever had. She was his best friend. She would wait for him to get out of school then they played football, basketball, anything. She was great with him. She was actually calm in the house but very active outside. She was incredibly smart. I never had to housebreak her. I don't know why more males end up in shelters. Maybe more owners keep the females? She did have one bad habit, chasing cars. I could not break her from that.

 

[Zoom]

It may have something to do with an ingrained sexism...males are 'tougher' and "more likely to make it" than females, who are smaller and lighter. Not saying there is any factual basis to this opinion, but it may be an unconscious stimulus.

Or it could be that a lot of people don't realize that males seem to bond tighter and weren't ready for a dog to be underfoot all the time?

 

[Athebeau]

Most times the reason you would find more males than females being surrended is due to people buying males because of the lower sterilization cost. Even with all my friends who breed, I have noticed they keep more females than males, but, sell more males because they are able to keep more females for future breedings. Most breeders I know will keep about 10-15 females and only 1 or 2 males. This is the reason why most purebred breeders would sell the males and may be more inclined to keep the females for future litters. It's easier and safer to keep multiple females of any breed...much more difficult to keep multiple intact males.

I wouldn't ignore it completely. I have heard breed diffrences are diffrent in most herding breeds. In corgis the females are dominent and act more like males in most breeds.The males are the laid back ones. I've never heard anyone argue it wasn't true. Of course some individual dogs are diffrent but overall it very well could be true

Really I have friends who breed Corgi's and they are more inclined to keep a few females as they are more laid back than a male . She keeps all of her 7 Corgi's as housedogs, her females are sweet and laid back.she has all her obedience titles on them (one more good thing about herding dogs they have the perfect motor patterns for obedience). I disagree that female herding dogs are more dominant..it's all in how you bring them up....any one can ruin a dog and create a nippy monster...and a good owner who understands dogs can take that same dog and make it into an angel. I have done this with a few rescues which were horrible in other homes and came to live with me, give them rules and viola...perfect dogs.

I also wanted to point out that with good working dog breeding a border collie should not display the nipping motor pattern. Here is a little insert from a border collie sheep dog trial. " If the sheep don't move away from the clapping dog, the dog goes beyond the threshold point where it should chase, and it can go directly to grab-bite. Oh yes, I lose a wee point if my dog nips the sheep . In the trial ring, the grab bite is considered a fault. . Nipping (grab bite) are faults in border collies for obvious reasons...they do appear, although weakly and nonfunctionally."
Basically this means that border collies have been bred specifically not to nip at the sheep/ or anything they chase...just eye stalk and chase...this has nothing to do with the sex of the dog but the motor patterns the dog was bred to display. Of course some people who bred border collies may encourage the grab bite motor pattern...it has nothing to do with the sex of the dog. So, if you have a breeder who perhaps was breeding dogs with grab bite then it will carry over to future litters no matter if it's male or female.
Each dog within a breed is an individual, it depends on breeding and upbringing and the motor patterns the breed was specifically bred to display.

 

[joce]

I'm inclined to believie all the breeders and showers I have met. Gizzys breeder is one of the top in the country and of all the people at the corgi show this summer nto a single one said diffrent. So I wouldn't doubt the rescue that said it about border collies. And it is true that they should not nip but remember the dogs that end up in rescue have generally not been trained correctly,if at all.

And for the life of me I cna not find it anywere online This is why the breeders often reccomend a male for the first time owner though. With dobes we reccomend a female for the first time because the males may have dominence issues but its the opposite in corgis.Like in my house a female corgi should think she runs it. We have four dogs and she beats up on the dobe and the husky. They tell me if she was a male she would lay back on the couch adn not care(makes me almost wish I had a male!). Your friends females could be diffrent but they shouldn't be. It is a charecteristic for them,but like anyhting else cna be bred out.I also just noticed that all the breeders I have talked to have a natural dock,maybe her line is diffrent,I guess that could be the biggest factor. I didn't realize how many were not natural dock.

I found this on a site to. I guess it is true that mroe breeders would keep their females to breed even if they shouldn't
"Some breeders extol the virtues of males without mentioning the negatives. Keep in mind that breeders prefer to keep females for their breeding program. They may push their male pups because that's who they need to place."

And completely off topic but is this real?
http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES5.html

 

[Gempress]

Interesting. When we were interested in a getting a rottweiler a while back, the breeders we contacted advised us to get a female. They said the females had softer, less-dominant temperaments than male rotts, and are best for first-time rott owners.

 

[joce]

Yep,. It does of course depend on how you raise them becaue my male dobe is no were near dominent with me but its more likely to be a male that s dominent vs a female. As far as I've heard I only know about the corgis being the opposite with the females but when I think about it it would seem to fit with alot of the herding breeds. The ACD that was at eh barn I used to board at was a female and definately dominent to everything else there. I'm not sure about males though,never met one. But she waas a challenge even to ehr owner and that fog was worked all the time,not like she wasn't trained or anyhting.