Border collie advice needed

caseyd

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#1
I am looking for any sort of advice I can get, good or bad.
We have a 4 yr old border collie, who has always been a little on the mental side, meaning he doesn't like strangers (to the point of aggression and biting if ever given the opportuntity-he bit someone once about 3 years ago), he has to wear a muzzle @ the vets, he paces the house obsessively ALL the time, even though he gets long daily walks, and other little things that make us wonder seriously about his mental state, most of which are hard to describe because they are pretty strange. He has a small group of people that he tolerates, about 6 or 7 other than the 3 of us. About 2 years ago, he developed epilepsy and has had about 4 seizures. It's not the seizures themselves that concerns me, because I know there is medication for him, it's how he acts afterwards. Sometimes it takes him a couple days to come out of it and will growl at my daughter or me until he realizes that it is us. I know border collies are a little on the hyper side, but this is not normal behaviour for any sort of dog. Now we are thinking that maybe it's time for him to move on, because he is a danger to our daughter. We take a lot of precautions to make sure they are not alone together, and he is always put into his room when someone he doesn't like or know comes over, and when we are walking him we try to cross the street when someone is coming towards us. I am very torn over what to do here. He is only 4, and I am not very comfortable with cutting his life short based on a lot of "what if's", but then on the other hand, the "what if's" are fairly serious. I don't want to risk anything happening to our daughter or anyone else. On most days he is a good dog, he knows some commands and other than barking a lot and digging, he is well-behaved. I think we need an outsiders opinion, someone who doesn't have their heart involved. Thank you in advance for any replies.
 

caseyd

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#2
Does anyone know anything about medication for his seizures? Is it possible that they will help prevent them and then we don't have to worry as much about him and my daughter being together? I don't really know what sort of side effects there are and whether it will be beneficial and worth it to put him on it. One of the other things that makes us wonder about him mentally is the way he reacts to sounds. If someone makes a rasberry-type sound (I guess more like a "fart" sound), or pops their gums, he gets really worked up, and shakes his head like he's trying to get the sound out of his ears, and hides. I have never seen another dog like that with noises. Maybe he is just sensitive, but it seems pretty strange to me.
 
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#3
As for the seizures...I HIGHLY recommend natural treatments. Talk to holistic veterinarians in your area.

I think you should socialize him a little. Start small. For example, take him outside on nice days when people are out and about. Get some yummy treats (at the recommendation of a trainer on another board, I use liver for the neighbor's dog whom I am training) and put the dog on a leash. Whenever someone walks past cheerfully say to them, "Hello!" This way your dog sees that you are happy to see these people and they mean good. Give him a treat whenever anyone passes. Another good idea is to have strangers give him treats, but only once he's used to seeing people walk past his house.
Once he's good with that exercise, try bringing him to a public place. Have your treats handy! You could try an outdoor cafe or something, but that still may be a bit overwhelming for him.

To keep him exercising his mind, try puzzle toys. KONG toys are great. Stuff one with peanut butter, dog toothepaste, kibble...anything healthy and tasty.
 

Agility23

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this is very common in border collies they have so much energy and are so smart that they can get snappy and have many behavioral problems he needs alot of time spending with him and alot of energy putting into him what you describe is normal for a border collie without enough stimulation

You either need to

Spent much more time with him playing training and so on

or

get rid of him....
 

Vickih

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#6
lol, get rid of him? There are nicer ways to put that, surely?!

I agree though, the Collie I had needed LOTS of exercise. On average I would walk him 5 or 6 miles a day - I've never been so fit!! He was an adorable dog though. I still miss him tons. (Died a couple of years ago from old age)

My Grandparents also had a Collie up until recently who sounds pretty much like yours. She was extremely hard work, wasnt too keen on people, couldnt be left on her own because she'd tear the house apart (even though she's 6 now), would never settle, and just wasnt suited for the life they could offer her. My aunt and uncle own a farm, and they took her on a couple of weeks back. Apparently she's doing a whole lot better now she's out working each day!!
 
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#7
It sounds like your BC may not be getting the physical and mental stimulation she needs to be happy and healthy. Keep in mind that she's bred to run all day long and to think on her feet. A lack of these kinds of stimulation can cause all sorts of difficulties. It also sounds like you may honestly just be too busy to provide her with the sort of care she needs. But I certainly wouldn't put her to sleep!! I would sit down with my family and decide if we could invest the time to bring the dog back "up to speed". If you decide together that you don't have the right home to give her what she needs, contact a BC rescue in your area. A rescue would be able to take her in and care for her until they find her a forever-home. There are tons of BC rescues all over the world, and they are more than willing to discuss with you what would be best for your dog. You can easily find all kinds of rescues by searching Google.com or Ixquick.com for "Border Collie rescue (name of your city and/or state)".
 

caseyd

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#8
Thank you for your advice everyone, it's nice to know that other border collies are like him.
We have taken him to 2 different trainers, who both said that they didn't think he would be able to like strangers again, and we have tried to socialize him despite that. But he is VERY aggressive with people he doesn't know, and it's not just a tough show that he puts on. He's fine when we're walking him for the most part, and of course he is always on a leash, so he's easy to control for my husband. We excercise him everyday, and he runs in the yard when we are not playing with him, but I know that we don't spend as much time as we should with him. We did the evil dog owner thing when he decided which breed we wanted and didn't do any research on border collies, we just thought "oh look how cute!" and "I've heard they're really smart dogs", so we didn't have any idea what we were getting into. Our vet advised us when he was about a year old (he went in to get neutered, and that was the LAST time I ever took him to the vet, it's always my husband now since he's not as aggressive around him) to have him put down because of how aggressive he was with the vet. I doubt very much that he would be able to be given away to another home, and I know that I couldn't have a healthy (but crazy) dog put down. So I guess we live with him for the next 10 years and do what we can.
 

Agility23

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#9
collies are alot of work if i didnt work collies in agility or another sport i wouldnt have them they are not worth the work if you just want as a family pet. If you put the work in and the time you will get a fantastic dog but it will time alot of time and work.
 

Gustav

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#10
Oh how sad, I do feel sorry for you! My friend was in a simular situation, she had a young family and a BC and he was just too snappy and pushy so she gave him to a friend of mine who works on a farm, and now that he's running around all day he's a different dog! So much happier!
I don't think it was helpful of your vet to tell you to have him put down! Surely he could have given you some better advice way back then when he was only a year old, so that you wouldn't be in this sitution now!
And You said that he wasn't as agressive around your husband? Maybe it's your husband that will hold the key that will crack his training! He obviously respects your husband more so maybe he should have a go at training your dog? It's worth a try, I hate to think that a young, healthy dog would just have to be put down!
Best of luck to you!
Louise
 

Agility23

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#11
people defently need more education on border collies there so many here in the uk in rescue center at the 6 month mark because of these kind of problems people just see good looking dog that does cool things like sheep herding and agility and thinks i know ill get one of thoses. They dont realise the reason there top in nearly all dog sports is cause there fast with mass energy
 
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#12
How long would you guess you exercise him every day? I exercise my mostly BC mix for at least 45 minutes and we walk maybe 1/2 a mile or more every day. You could try a 20 minute walk in the morning, then when you get back give him a puzzle toy to play with, then another 20 minute walk in the evening.
Border Collies do need a lot of human contact. I know my girl would die if she didn't get the attention she craves (but it's kind of hard to not pet her, seeing as she'll sit there nudging at you and whining her little head off ;)). You could also try holding special sessions for a few minutes at a time where just you spend time with the dog. Your husband should do this too. You could do something like play ball with him in the backyard, brush him, take him on a walk, or just sit and pet him for a few minutes.
 

maui

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Hi Lantz,

We have a Border Collie mix... I understand the energy crisis.

Until you decide what to do with your guy. There are some games we play (because walks are just walks for a BC)

Instead of feeding him kibble in a bowl, put little piles around the house and teach him find it. (Important to remember where you put these)

Go outside teach him wait and then call him to come to get some kibble. Do this 35 times in the morning. He sounds brilliant, you'll have him hooked in no time.

Put some sticks (Or toys) in a big pile on one side of the yard. Teach him to move them to the other side, he gets a peice of liver for each one moved. (Eventually you may advance him to get a jackpot at the end, instead of standing the dolling out one at a time.)

Also, there is good reason to see a Border Collie vet. BC's have trouble with certain medications.

I hope it all works out for you. It's not easy to place a pet with rescue or take them to a farm. Good luck!

-Maui
 

maui

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#14
Whoops, not only did I originally post this in the wrong area.... Now, it's addressed to the wrong person. Sorry!
 
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#15
And get another vet! Yeesh. I can't believe a vet telling someone to put a year old dog down because of some aggression problems. Based on that advice, I surely wouldn't accept the vet's diagnosis that your dog can't be trained to alleviate some of the aggression issues. He's probably not willing to expend much effort on your dog's behalf on the seizures either.

Vets are supposed to be advocates for animals.
 

caseyd

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Yeah, I was really angry and upset at what the vet said, I remember I cried the whole way home, and I was so worried that they were just going to determine for themselves what to do with him while they were neutering him. The only reason we haven't switched vets is because they know his history there, and they know what to expect. When he goes with my husband now he is fine, tense but no freaking out like with me, and he still wears a muzzle just in case. But we are thinking of changing to the one we take our cat to, they seem really nice there. We walk him for about 1 1/2 hours everyday, and I have started putting things in his kong again (I forgot how much he likes that! Thanx), and we play fetch with him all day long. We are teaching our daughter to play with him too, it's funny to watch because she can't throw very far and he just sort of looks at her and the ball, I can almost see him rolling his eyes at her.
I like the idea with the toys or sticks outside, that sounds fun! It will help him think of something else to do other than digging. Now if we can just get rid of this horrible snow then everything will be great! Thanx for your advice everyone!
 
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#17
Oh, he sounds smart!! I have a mostly BC mix, and these dogs are some smart dogs :). One dog book I know of says they will spend hours looking for attention. How true :rolleyes:. My girl sits there whining if she doesn't get attention ;).

Good luck!
 
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#18
well border collies need a LARGE fenced yard and a LOT of playtime...trust me. Trigger is very hyper lol. His old owners daughter did not play with him and had him in an apartment for a while and he had a mental breakdown...he snapped at her and grew sad and depressed. She would have put him down if we woulde'nt take him soooo... Here I am with the smartest dog I've ever seen! lol
 

joce

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#19
A bc rescue may be able to place him in a farm home where he can work. The trainer i had that did husky rescue was always talking about the bc rescue people and how hard they had it to. I've met some that definately needed a job to do. Running in circles after a ball isn't their idea of fun. When I was younger my friend had one that all of a sudden clamed down but he was like twelve! Good luck in whatever you do with him!
 

maui

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Hi Casey,

Sounds like you are giving your bc a lot of love!

RE:
"It will help him think of something else to do other than digging"

We are lucky enough to have room in our yard... maybe you can select an area that isn't attractive anyway and redirect his digging to that spot. (If you can do this...Not so realistic for everyone) We picked a spot about 15 feet off the fence in a wild area. That way if he goes deep, he's not creating an escape route.

When you catch him digging, run to the spot where you want him to dig. (Hopefully you will run there with a garden tool or gloves) Then start digging yourself. When he helps you out, encourage him. He'll learn to dig where he gets happy praise and where his mommy digs.

You might bury something there... a pressed rawhide, a greenie, or teach him to dig there even if he wasn't digging.

I read this on the internet somewhere and thought the person was a nut case. Until I tried it. Now our dog digs in the dig spot. Of course, he lays in it after and gets all dirty, but he smiles and sleeps. For a few months he would dig in the mulched beds, but not anymore. It took a good 6 months for the behavior to stop, but the last 4 months he was just trying it about once a week.

Good luck!
Maui
 

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