Bite..question

[thepointingheeler]

Hi. Today I was at another house in the backyard with my dog and some of my family. A close neighbor came by and my dog got weary and bit him on the back of the calf. It wasn't extremely hard, it didn't draw blood, but it was a bite none-the-less.

Now, she is about a 2-year-old Australian Cattle Dog mix and has shown herding signs before. I'm not sure how much this is related to any sort of herding intstinct but I felt it may be relevant enough to mention. She has never bitten anyone before though she has bitten the wheels of the lawnmower that she didn't seem to like.

I'm very sure this wasn't a RANDOM bite without any sort of clear reason. I felt she didn't recognize him and for whatever felt threatened by him (he's a larger guy).

I don't condone ANY type of biting, but I am open to the idea that there are situations where a bite can be looked upon as something NOT being an act of an unstable temperment in a dog..ie, defending ones territory, feeling threatened, etc.

I am aware now that I must take measures to recondition her to understanding that this is NOT acceptable. At what point do you deem this to be a sign of unstable temperment or somewhat within the boundaries of a (for lack of a better term) justified bite? I'm open to all ideas, I'm trying to look at this objectively as possible in order to take appropriate measures as to how to fix this problem.

Any help is VERY much appreciated

 

[Herschel]

Was she scared? Did anyone else see the bite? Did the man provoke her?

Keep in mind that she was alone in the backyard. An unfamiliar person just showed up...what was she supposed to do?

 

[thepointingheeler]

I think she was scared, she didn't recognize him..got solemn when he came. Actually, she wasn't alone..my family was there and other people did see it. As for her being provoked, I'm not so sure. He was approaching us and she didn't recognize him and has been weary around bigger males, though never aggressive. I'm now curious if the fact that my family was there changes the dynamic of the situation at all. If she was completely alone it would certainly make much more sense. She may have been flustered as it is a yard she normally isn't and there were a lot of loud sounds (motorcycles and such driving by which she despises).

As I said, I'm just trying to see this objectively. Trying to keep myself from getting too upset over it or make sure I'm getting upset enough to where I should do something if I (and others) feel it is waranted.

 

[Herschel]

I don't think you can do anything unless it is replicated or unless you see it happen. You might want to start desensitizing her to large males (have a friend come over every now and then and make it a good experience) for good measure.

 

[bubbatd]

Considering this wasn't even in your own back yard , I'd be really concerned .. Glad that it wasn't a child .

 

[elegy]

i wouldn't mess around with this. i'd find somebody to evaluate your dog in person, a behaviorist or a trainer who has a lot of experience with aggression. i wouldn't rely on answers from people on the internet who can't actually see your dog for an issue like this.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I agree with Elegy, you definately should get your dog evaluated by a behaviorist. You're right, there could be nothing to be very concerned with here, but again, what if it were a child? Best to get it checked out by a professional to be sure. You can do a google search for "Applied Animal Behaviorist" to find a list of behaviorists in your area, or of course ask your vet or trainer.

Meanwhile, it doesn't really matter at this point why your dog bit this guy, what matters more is that your dog will probably bite again. Be extremely careful and vigilant around strangers (but don't be nervous, your dog will notice and get nervous himself). Let strangers hand or throw treats to your dog. If your dog shows fearful behavior like the kind that you saw just before the bite in this incident, leave and get your dog out of the situation. This is not training, this is just management, which is why you need a behaviorist to help you teach your dog appropriate behaviors, but it will prevent another bite until you learn what to do instead.

Don't panic, though. Your dog is quite possibly just acting like an appropriate dog. But just to be sure, please follow the above suggestions.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Gonzo has done the same exact thing.

He doesn't actually make contact... but, there have been a few instances, with only a few people, that he has suddenly displayed VERY strong herding behaviors. He will just follow them, giving them the "eye", and air-snap at their heels. ACDs are obviously prone to be mouthier than BCs, just due to their herding style.

The few times Gonzo has done it, all of the people were males and all of them were strangers to him at the time. One of the incidences was almost exactly like yours! Me and a few of my friends were at the park, with our dogs, and our friend Jake just got there and was walking briskly up to us. Gonzo had never met him, and ran up behind him and air-nipped at his butt. Everyone thought it was funny... but I do take it very seriously. (Btw, he LOVES Jake now, and Jake forgave him.)

I've talked to really good behaviorists about this behavior, and even though it's only been a few small, isolated cases, I am careful with introducing him to ANYONE new. If I have friends coming over, and I won't have time to properly introduce them to Gonzo, it's better for everyone that he hangs out in his crate while they are over.

When he's being introduced to new people, he is on a loose leash, and I instruct them to kneel down and allow Gonzo to approach them. No over-the-head petting, or rubbing his face, or super-excited voices, or anything rude like that. They give him a few treats.

He is absolutely fine with 99% of people, even children. But I do this with everyone, because it isn't worth taking the risk. Honestly.... herding dogs are WEIRDOS. They can pick up on certain movements, or certain mannerisms, and it just posesses them. It can be a challenge, but it's our job as their owners to inhibit and control their drive.

 

[bubbatd]

If I ever had a dog that bit anyone , I would really seek help .

 

[thepointingheeler]

Well, I really thank all of you for your advice and input. And I appreciate everyone being honest. I'm pretty sure there are an abundance of dog behaviorists in my area so I will definitely find one. I'm not taking this lightly by any means.

The more I think about it, I really do think it was in relation to the fact that she is a herding dog and was caught up in the moment. By no means does it justify it nor does it mean I will not take her to a behaviorist and treat it as though it WASN'T out of aggression, but I don't feel this was out of COMPLETE aggression.

As has been said, she did bite someone, for whatever reason. I must take whatever precautions I can now to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Again, thank you for all the help and insight. Any more is much appreciated, of course.

 

[Chaoslillith]

She may have been trying to control the situation because of the number of people or because she was feeling a bit overstressed with a different backyard and the number of people. How many people were there?

It may have been as well if you and the family were all in a small group and then this man came walking up she wanted to put him into the group to make a nice small group as her herding instincts took over.

I doubt it was aggressive and was more an instinctual thing.

 

[elegy]

see this kind of stuff:

my dog got weary and I felt she didn't recognize him and for whatever felt threatened does not say herding to me at *all*. this says fear aggression to me.

 

[thepointingheeler]

Hmm..well, I've never been out in the field while a bunch of cattle dogs were herding cattle. I don't know if they show similar signs to fear aggression during herding. I'm not disagreeing that it certainly looks like fear aggression, as it very well could have been. But would you agree there may be a fine line? Especially since cattle dogs and other herding dogs are prone to mouthiness?

By no means am I trying to water it down or play it off as if there is a completely logical excuse, but I'm trying to look at it from every angle. She was certainly stressed as there were loud engines around her at about the same time.

 

[RD]

Do yourself and your dog a huge favor and don't assume that this is because she's a "herding" breed. You'll find yourself making all sorts of excuses for your dog's behavior because she was bred to work livestock. I have Border Collies (I doubt you can find a more "herdy" breed) and I see people with my breed excusing bad behavior all the time because "Border Collies nip because they're herding!". Do you honestly think these dogs don't know the difference between a sheep and a human? Dogs don't herd people.

I fully agree with Elegy that this has nothing to do with herding instincts. To give you an example, a "herding" nip would be a dog biting at a person running away from them in order to stop the person, but even that isn't herding instinct - it's prey drive. Dogs in general chase moving creatures, not just herding breeds. So please, for the sake of your dog's behavior, throw the misconceptions about her instincts out the window. But also don't jump the gun and assume you have a vicious, murderous monster on your hands -- you don't. Dogs bite. It's happened, it's done, now you work on fixing it.

My guess is that your dog felt threatened and bit in defense. I've seen many ACDs that are uncomfortable around strangers and your dog is probably no exception. Dogs tend to display aggressive behavior when they're deeply unsettled and your dog was stressed out.

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get a lot of advice on the forum because it's hard for anyone to tell you exactly what's going on with your dog without seeing her personally. Please find a good behaviorist, it'll make a world of difference. Good luck!! Keep us posted on how she's doing.

 

[thepointingheeler]

Do yourself and your dog a huge favor and don't assume that this is because she's a "herding" breed. You'll find yourself making all sorts of excuses for your dog's behavior because she was bred to work livestock. I have Border Collies (I doubt you can find a more "herdy" breed) and I see people with my breed excusing bad behavior all the time because "Border Collies nip because they're herding!". No. Just... no. Sometimes this is the case, but when your dog bites someone it's always safest to assume the worst and get the help of a qualified behaviorist.

My guess is that your dog felt threatened and bit in defense. I've seen many ACDs that are uncomfortable around strangers and your dog is probably no exception. Dogs tend to display aggressive behavior when they're deeply unsettled.

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get a lot of advice on the forum because it's hard for anyone to tell you exactly what's going on with your dog without seeing her personally. Please find a good behaviorist, it'll make a world of difference.

By no means does it justify it nor does it mean I will not take her to a behaviorist and treat it as though it WASN'T out of aggression, but I don't feel this was out of COMPLETE aggression.

As has been said, she did bite someone, for whatever reason. I must take whatever precautions I can now to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

As I've said, I'm not making excuses. I'm being objective and seeking advice. But thank you for your input, I do appreciate it.

I will be finding someone to evaluate my dog professionally.

 

[corgipower]

a fear aggressive dog shows warning signs before an actual bite. they spend time growling and barking. for a fear aggressive dog to advance to biting, the growling and barking has to have been rewarded by the target leaving.

and no, a herding dog doesn't use fear aggression while herding.

she was out of her element, being in someone else's yard, yet her family was there. then this neighbor shows up, and she doesn't recognize him. combined with the stress of the noises going on, she felt a need to protect her people. she's at an age where protection instincts develop, and ACD's can be highly protective.

she needs a solid recall, and a down stay, under a variety of circumstances, and she needs to be evaluated by a professional.

there is no reason for a herding breed to bite a person any more than any other breed. people are not sheep. and besides most herding is done without biting.

 

[thepointingheeler]

Yeah, it really would make a lot more sense if it was out of fear and being overwhelmed and out of her element. It does suprise me a little because she has never growled at a person (and actually, she didn't even growl at this man). She looked at him, got solemn (something she does when she's being watchful), and bit the back of his calf. So it does baffle me a little and that is the reason why I'm hesistant to say it was out of pure aggression.

I think it to be a combination of her element, the noises which really do bother her, and the fact that she didn't recognize him.

Whatever it may be, I will have her evaluated and do some professional training with her.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Do you honestly think these dogs don't know the difference between a sheep and a human? Dogs don't herd people.

I totally disagree with this.

One of the biggest reasons that BCs are abandoned is due to mis-directed herding drive; directed towards running kids, people, cats, other dogs, cars, etc. Several people who I've talked to, whose BCs have been injured or killed "herding" cars, can vouche for this.

Just an example, because my BC happens to be excessively drivey... I was walking him on a sidewalk, he was in a perfect heel, with a loose leash. A mail truck drove by, very close to the curb. The spinning wheel caught his eye, and he lunged for it out of absolutely no where. Thank GOD I was watching him and jerked him back, or he could've been run over. He didn't look at the wheel, and think to himself, "Oh.. wait... that's just a wheel! It's not a sheep at all! I shouldn't dive out into the street to chase it, that would just be silly." He simply acted on his (very intense) instinct - moving object, must chase. He also attempts to herd other dogs. Not just any dogs, if another herding dog, or a small dog ran by, he wouldn't even blink an eye (well, he might attempt to initiate play). If a rambunctious Lab ran by, he would go into stalking mode instantly. It's just part of his quirkiness... and yes, I'm positive he's motivated to do this by his herding instinct, even though a Lab isn't exactly a sheep. And he knows what sheep are, as well as ducks, and cattle.

I'm not implying that nipping at people or other animals is ok because he's a herding breed. Not at all. I can immediately call him off of anything, but that's after 2 solid years of off-leash Obedience classes, and advice from awesome behaviorists who work with herding breeds. I have done basically everything to try to supress his drive... hundreds of years of specific breeding can't just be quelled, obviously you know that. I have discovered in owning him that all I can do is re-direct his desire to herd, into dog sports and lots of exercise and training. I still can't trust him with strangers running around, or with strange dogs running around, or with cars driving by (of course, no dog should be off-leash near traffic), so I take the necessary precautions to make sure he is safe and so are the potential victims of his herding drive. I now know him well enough to know what kinds of situations he can't handle off-leash.

But, part of the OP's question was WHY did my dog do this, and IMHO it is definitely related to herding drive. Just the fact that she nipped him on the back of his leg, and by the sounds of it, went into "herding mode". The situation was chaotic, there was a lot of people and sounds and noises, and she was most likely pretty stressed to begin with. It sounds to me as though her dog was trying to control the situation, but none of us can say for sure, because no one but the OP was actually there to observe the incident. Which is why I recommend a behaviorist... as well as making sure her dog is under control (by a leash, or after she's under completely reliable voice control) in such situations, from now on.

 

[corgipower]

He simply acted on his (very intense) instinct - moving object, must chase. He also attempts to herd other dogs. Not just any dogs, if another herding dog, or a small dog ran by, he wouldn't even blink an eye (well, he might attempt to initiate play). If a rambunctious Lab ran by, he would go into stalking mode instantly. It's just part of his quirkiness... and yes, I'm positive he's motivated to do this by his herding instinct, even though a Lab isn't exactly a sheep. And he knows what sheep are, as well as ducks, and cattle.

a large part of herding instinct is being able to discriminate between species. herding instinct tells the dog to herd sheep but not herd people. stalking isn't herding. what you describe sounds more like prey drive, which typically runs fairly high in herding breeds.

 

[ihartgonzo]

He literally herds the dogs. He doesn't chase them down and attack them or anything... he circles, eyes them, everything. And he has never bitten another dog.

What is herding drive, anyway, besides (greatly) inhibited prey drive?