Big problem with submissive/excited urination

[keabird]

Kea, our 8 month old border collie female has a pretty bad problem with submissive urination. Every time she meets new people she runs up to them, and immediately pees. This happens even when the person completely ignores her like we tell them to do. Then after a few minutes to let Kea calm down the new person will try to speak in a calm voice and pet her, she immediately pees again. We try to manage this by taking her out before we know someone is coming over, but it seems that if there is even two drops of pee in her bladder, it is coming out.

The second half of the problem is, in my opinion, much worse. Kea will pee when she thinks she has done something bad. Sometimes me or my wife with have just gotten done playing with her or giving her a treat and if I call her to come and then sit or down, she gets all scared looking and pees all over the place. Usually I stop petting her right away and try to ignore her when that happens. Today I tried acting like nothing happened when she peed and kept petting her. 10 minutes later I called her to come again and with her back legs shaking she made a huge puddle.

I really do not know what to do. We have never shouted, hit her, or rubbed her nose in the mess, and we have owned her since she was 6 weeks old, so I am pretty sure no one else has either. She just seems to be a scardy dog.

Anyone have any advice on how to handle this. The excited peeing I can handle, it is the terrified, submissive peeing we need to get a handle on.

 

[Herschel]

Some dogs are just easier to scare than others. She was also taken from her mother/litter mates too young so that can lead to temperament problems as well.

Is she spayed?
Are you SURE that you aren't doing anything to scare her?
When she comes to you, do you move suddenly (even to praise her) or yell excitedly?
What kind of voice to you use when you tell her to come?
Do you command her sternly or do you ask nicely?
Does she cower when someone new comes or is she excited to greet them? Has anything bad ever happened to her while meeting someone new?
Has this behavior always been present?

 

[Zoom]

Some dogs go through a second fear period right about this time as well, so that might be having something to do with it.

 

[RD]

I would first address this problem with your vet, and rule out the possibility that there is a physiological abnormality causing or contributing to this.

The greeting with strangers is normal IMO. Border Collies are notoriously quirky when it comes to strangers, but I am very surprised that she is doing this with you. You say she does it when she is called to come, sit or down. Could you please tell me how you taught her these behaviors?

Is it a recent thing? If so, it may very well be the fear period Zoom is talking about. My dog was afraid of ceiling fans at Kea's age.

 

[Doberluv]

Along with all the other good posts here, the things to rule out, a little excercise that you can teach her, at least when someone knocks on the door, is: (and you practice this with a member of your family or a friend who will be the door knocker) they knock and before the door is opened, you show her to her crate a "safe" distance away and give her a high value treat. Use a cue word, "crate" or "go to your place" (whatever). (You can practice this before you start practicing with the door knocking.) Have a stuffed Kong or other favorite toy in there. It's her safety spot and one where she can get accustom to someone coming in before she has to face the over whelming act of meeting them. (whether it's fear, shyness or excitement) So, when someone knocks, help her to her crate gently, give her the cue word, treat and close the door. Then when the person comes in and sits down....after a few minutes, open her door and let her approach if she wants to. No one pays attention to her at first until she is calm. No eye contact, no nothin'. This will be her routine whenever she needs to face such an anxiety producing event. Always, before the door is opened, even if your guests have to wait, show her to her crate first and reward her. Eventually, the door knocking will be her cue too, to go to her saftey spot on her own. This will give her the added security that she doesn't have to greet people first thing when they come in. It just helps ease things in.

In addition, when you come and go, even from within rooms of your house, remain low key. Keep your attention to her low key when she comes over for a pat.

She is showing you that she thinks you're wonderful and that she is not. LOL. In addition, gradually introduce some confidence building games, like tug if she's "game." Let her win. Just make sure she knows, "give" when you ask for the toy and that she doesn't get too wild....just a calm game of a little fun. Obedience training practice also builds confidence when done using only positive methods. Reinforce behavior you like with a yummy and tiny treat and low key, quiet, gentle praise.

When she does "leak," you're doing right to not fuss about it, but I wouldn't continue patting her. Lessen some of that attention. Save it for reinforcing behavior you do like to see instead of reinforcing her for peeing.

Often this behavior fades away with maturity and good, patient handling.

 

[keabird]

Thanks for the responses. To answer a few questions:

Yes, she is spayed and the vet said that there is nothing physically wrong with her.

The only time I can think of that really got her scared was when I was petting her on my lap and she peed on me. Without thinking I jumped up and she fell off onto the floor. I didn't yell or anything but I think the fall gave her a bad scare.

I try to use a friendly voice to get her to come, sit or down, but I have a deep voice and I guess that can scare her. My wife has some trouble but only when she uses a sterner tone.

Now that you have mentioned it, I think this must be the second fear stage. She has only started fear peeing in that past couple of weeks.

As far as the training goes, we follow the philosophy outlined in the Urban Puppy Kit. All her training has been with positive reinforcement. We do tell her no in a stern voice if we catch her chewing on somthing she shouldn't be. Amazingly, for a border collie, that has only been a very few times.

The only time I use a stern command to come is when I am concerned about her safety. She used to try to bolt out the doors of our house and we dont have a fenced yard so I had to get her to come before she got in the street. In the past few days however, she has learned a pretty solid "wait" so we have to give the ok before she goes out the door.

Hopefully that answers some questions. Any other adive is always welcome.

 

[Doberluv]

With her temperament, especially, I'd lose the stern "no." If she's chewing on something you don't want her to have, just go to her and give a very gentle no reward marker, like, "eh-eh" and trade her for her own toy and praise her for chewing that. Otherwise, try your best to prevent her from getting into the "no no's" in the first place. That way, she won't be self rewarded for chewing on those items. She sounds too soft to be using any kind of sterness. You can use that principle with anything you're teaching her. In other words, when she's thinking of doing the "no no," intercept BEFORE it starts, distract her, give her an alternative behavior to do, preferably and incompatible one, which she can't do and do the no no at the same time. Don't forget to notice behavior you like, even if you didn't ask for it and reinforce that. That way, she'll engage in that behavior more often.

For her recall, just keep practicing correctly and it will get more solid. And you won't have to be "scary" to get her to come. Some tips: Don't call her to come unless she's already coming or unless she's on a long line that you can enforce the recall. If she's heading toward some enticing thing, and you call her, she is very, very likely to fail and you want to avoid that. Anytime she's running away from you and you use your command, she can learn that the command word MEANS running away, since that is what it is being tied to. You only want to use the word when she's positively coming to you....that is...until she is VERY solid on the recall.

You can entice her to come, using your playful, silly voice, running the other way from her, squeeking a toy, making goofy noises, hiding behind a bush but don't use the cue word. Wait until she is just about to you and THEN say, "come" in a friendly voice and lavish her with praise and a treat or two. So, in other words, with anything, don't give a command if there's a chance she won't comply. Set her up for success because the more reinforcements she gets for compliance, the better she'll do in the future...the more likely she'll repeat those correct responses. So, instead of associating the cue word with scariness or sterness, associate it with nothing but a GREAT time and complete trust in you.

Also, never call her to come and then do something she doesn't like, like clipping her nails or ending all the fun. Go get her for those things. Make sure to pay her generously whenever she comes to you, even on her own accord.

 

[keabird]

Kea's recall is actually really strong. I am always amazed that she comes to us when we are at the local off-leash area. You always see owners yelling their dogs names as they completely ignore them. We are always careful not to call her if she is in the middle of something fun.

The problems occur when we are at home and I call her to come just to say hi. I have called her a couple of times recently to clip her nails and to brush her (both things she is scared of). I will remember to just go and get her next time. She is such a sweet dog and just loves every single dog and person she comes into contact with. I hate seeing her so scared when we are at home.

 

[Doberluv]

I see. Well, all I can say is to keep up the good work, continuing to not fuss over her when she's afraid so you don't reinforce that. And maybe increase the value of her coming to you inside. It helps to keep in mind that cues or commands aren't what drive behavior, but rather, reinforcement is what drives behavior, makes it happen and be repeated. As time goes and she matures, she'll probably grow out of it. Is she getting plenty of socialization? Lots of happy, pleasant and unfrightening experiences with people, different places, dogs etc.? That's super important. She sounds like a sweetie and you seem to be a really caring owner. I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

[keabird]

I am pleased to report that we have made good progress with Kea. She still pees when excited, but the scardy behavior has started to fade. I think she just got really scared when I jumped up after she peed in my lap. I have been trying to call her with a soft voice, or if we are outside, with a fun excited voice. If she starts to tuck her tail and act shy I stop calling her, get a treat and go to her. After a treat and some scratching behind the ears she usually comes to me with no problems. Thanks to everyone who offered advice.

 

[Brattina88]

Good to hear - keep us updated