Big Problem with Fighting!

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#21
I have four dogs. Two parents, two children. The mom is mixed with Maltese and Bichon Frise and the dad is a Mixed Chihuahua. Now, the kids are a boy and a girl. They where born in Dec. of 05. Since they where born till now they have been living happily.. absolutely no problems. But now the dad and the son are fighting. ?

In some breeds or even some mixes, same sex pairs simply do not and will never get along. Aggression will escalate when the females come into season and you might find yourself with some serious injuries and in an extreme case, death. Neutering may help, it definately will not hurt, but don't expect it to be a cure. As the younger dog matures he will continute to test his sire and his place in the pack. If you are unable to provide the dogs safe and seperate housing (putting up baby gates and segregating them to certian areas of the house work great) then you may have to consider placing one or the other to keep them from hurting each other.
Fair warning though, females will fight too, especially when they come into season, and there is nothing, NOTHING, worse than a "bitch fight".
Oh, and one last thing. Don't think for a second that the males will not breed their relatives.
 

LuvToyDogs

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#22
Get both males neutered. Keep them separate when you are not home to supervise them. When you are home make sure you have a spray bottle of water to use to break up any arguments they may have by spraying them in the face saying no! Eventually at the first growl you can pick up the spray bottle and they will retreat to separate corners. Dogs are like having a 3-4 year old child with teeth. They need you as their "parent" to explain the rules and I have found with toy breeds/smaller dogs, they usually understand the spray bottle rule.

Edited to correct the spelling of the word spray since 'spaying' them in the face is not possible! :lol-sign:
 
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adojrts

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#23
Fair warning though, females will fight too, especially when they come into season, and there is nothing, NOTHING, worse than a "bitch fight".
.
:hail: AMEN and agreed. Although there is one thing worse ....a frenzy were all the dogs attack another one.
Man that is nasty and if you experience one, you never want to again, makes a dog fight seem like a walk in the park lol (jk of course all fights are not funny).
 

Red_ACD_for_me

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#24
I know lots of examples of unneutered males living together without problems, so i do not agree that they almost never get along.

I agree with the neutering, but why both? I always learned it helps best if you only neuter the dog that is lowest in rank, the son in this case, so they are not so close together in rank anymore. I know some examples regarding fighting between males in the same household that were solved after the lowest in rank was neutered.
Boy, my male dog, doesn't like other unneutered males very much, but he doesn't care about neutered males. If he had to live with another unneutered male, he would fight, but he lived in peace with a neutered male for years before i got him.
Yes, there are some cases where two intact males will get along but 99% of the time it is without fail a mistake in owning two "PET" intact males and think they are going to live together peacefully. A friend of mine who has two intact male Beligian Malinois are just starting to have aggression issues with one another. One is almost two and the other is 18 months. She does protection work with both of them but has to now keep them seperated when unsupervised and she is on the verge of getting them neutered or at least one for now...........Her dogs have totally turned a 360 on eachother as I warned her may possibly happen. If it were me I would have purchased a bitch instead. My male is intact for now and I can't have him around other intact boys because they will fight,but he gets on fine with neutered males and of course spayed bitches.
 

Doberluv

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#25
I totally agree with Melanie about how to go about getting into the leadership role. I do not agree with the pack theory that your trainer suggested....about reinforcing the "dominant" dog. Reward pushy and you'll get pushy. I would remove the dog at once that is instigating the pushiness or snarkiness. Hard to determine sometimes, as you don't always see a signal coming from the "innocent" looking dog. You need to learn body language and expressions well and catch it at the very first sign of intention, interrupt, isolate for a very short time, try again....that is if you're going to try to re-train them to "behave" together....very difficult in a case like this, I think.

These dogs have had hormones surging through their bodies and brains for a long time now. Behaviors have developed through the influence of these hormones. Brain pathways and firing neurons have developed for these behaviors. Behaviors require these things in order to be present. So, for a very long time, possibly the dogs' lifetime, these central nervous system pathways are going to be open for use, so to speak. Eventually, (but I don't think anytime soon) if they are not used, they will break off. (use it or lose it) As long as they can engage in the behavior after neutering, the neurons will keep firing and the integrity of the pathways will remain.

When dogs are neutered before the hormones begin to influence behavior that is based on those hormones, often some of this behavior can be thrawted. But once it's been going on for a long time, it is very difficult to erradicate.

So, my point is that although training will be VERY instrumental in this problem and neutering too, will probably help a little bit, I doubt very seriously that you'll ever be able to safely take your eyes off these two dogs. They will probably be stressed living together. And as difficult as it sounds, unless they're kept seperated or heavily supervised, there's a high liklihood of them fighting to the kill. It happens. Yes, some dogs get along well and can live together. My dog's breeder had two intact males that were not the same breed. But she still didn't leave them unsupervised, just in case.

But these two have already shown you that there's a big problem. So, you'll either have to be unbelievably diligent and careful or re-home one of them. It sucks, but it's the way it is sometimes. I hope things improve for you.
 

corgipower

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#26
"if the dogs are under constant supervision whenever together, the first sign of a squabble is squashed " How do you do that ?
what i do is at the first sign of posturing or threatening, i stand up and start to approach them. before i even get there (my dogs can get into a fight much faster than i can walk across the room) i command a "down". i might get a halfway down from one of them, i might get a stand stay if they are especially stubborn that moment, but it will halt the impending aggression, and a second "down" command will almost always get the dogs to drop all the way.

they can't bite if they are on a down stay. this buys me the time i need to get to them and physically make whatever adjustments are necessary. sometimes it's enough to break the tension with a down for a few minutes and then they are ok around each other, sometimes i need to remove one or both of them from the room.

in order for this to work you need to have a solid, fast, reliable down command.
 
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#27
:hail: AMEN and agreed. Although there is one thing worse ....a frenzy were all the dogs attack another one.
Man that is nasty and if you experience one, you never want to again, makes a dog fight seem like a walk in the park lol (jk of course all fights are not funny).

Oh yes. I have been in the middle of those. I worked for a no kill shelter for many years that did not believe in kennels. I was severely bitten on many occasions when trying to save one dog from "the pack". After having my eyelids torn off (from a cat not a dog) I decided I had better quit before I REALLY got hurt. Last time I checked they had put up kennels and partitioned the yard off. I guess they got tired of scraping up the remains of killed dogs.
 

saffie

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#29
Yes, there are some cases where two intact males will get along but 99% of the time it is without fail a mistake in owning two "PET" intact males and think they are going to live together peacefully. A friend of mine who has two intact male Beligian Malinois are just starting to have aggression issues with one another. One is almost two and the other is 18 months. She does protection work with both of them but has to now keep them seperated when unsupervised and she is on the verge of getting them neutered or at least one for now...........Her dogs have totally turned a 360 on eachother as I warned her may possibly happen. If it were me I would have purchased a bitch instead. My male is intact for now and I can't have him around other intact boys because they will fight,but he gets on fine with neutered males and of course spayed bitches.
It maybe depends on the breeds and how much they differ in age?
I suppose it matters if you own two beagles or two dogs of breeds that are known to have problems with same-sex dogs when mature.
I would never want two intact males together myself, I have a male and a female and it's the perfect combination. Boy accepts behavior from females he would never accept from another male dog. And he is certainly no pushover, he just looooves the ladies :D

But still, 99% seems a bit high to me. But why take the risk if there are safer combinations then two intact males?, I agree with you on that.
 
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#30
They should get nuetered just because they are already aggresive with each other but I disagree with giving one dog favor (higher status) than the other. To me that has always caused more problems. You need to be the boss. Let them know fighting is not ok and they are both "underdogs" in your "pack". Don't beat them or anything but use your bossiest meanest voice and go "No" or whatever at the earliest sign of their fighting and you stand up aggresivly and make them run to their corners or "timeout" spot to cool off. It sounds kinda mean but it works and you don't have to spank them or be mean physically but you do have to put them in thier place and let them know who's boss. Plus if your females aren't spayed you should do that because two males will fight over a female and that you really can't stop.
 
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#31
wow awesome advice guys. Thanks a million to everyone who has replied. I called up the vet this morning and he wont be in for a couple of days. Anyways, for about 2days now, I've been keeping one or the other male dog in a big caged area and would switch back and forth. Sometimes i would try and reintroduce them but as soon as I let one go they growl and then i try to pick one up and they fight. I had my mom look after them for me today while I was at work. She told me they kept doing the same thing. So as I got home I was wondering what would happen if I don't even interrupt. I put on a long sleeve shirt, filled up the water bottle with water... I had the dad in the basement and I took the son in my arms and pet him to calm him down. Slowly let the son walk around... there was little growls and the son was shaking just a bit (I think he is on the defensive even when he is the one growling first) They both smelled each other and then....

The son growled and was ready to attack and the dad started to jump on the son... but... he started to hump him... couple seconds later the son started to lick the dad's face and then they both started to play around with one another.. I still didn't want to take a risk because if one steps on someones toes they go off. I said in a firm voice "Calm down both of you" they would look at me and the dad would stand there and the son would lick him. Well I would say 10min later they took a nap together. This is how it is sometimes. Like 2days they are ok then 3days bad, then 2 days ok again.
Anyways I'll be able to relax for a bit now. I'll be taking them for a walk in a bit but I want to let them get comfortable again with one another before I do.

What do you guys think about the suggestion about getting the son fixed instead of both of them?

btw the two females are spayed :) no problems with any of the females.... yet... lol

Thanks again for everybody's help.
 

Doberluv

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#32
I recommend that you keep them completely seperated until you've gone through the training that Melanie wrote out for you. Get them on a firm foundation before trying to reintroduce them. Then there is an often effective way to go about that. I wrote out a plan for a couple of people. I'll hunt around for it. It is under very controlled circumstances...2 people, 2 leashes, a systematic training session and then they're separated again while not in the training session. You must not "see" what will happen and leave it up to chance. This not only is a high risk of serious injury, but it also allows this behavior to continue, reinforcing it, making it stronger. Keep them completely in different rooms for several months. Don't let them get close together and get antagonized at all right now.
 

Doberluv

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#33
Here's the thread. Go through it all and see what you think. Again, I wouldn't even attempt this now. Wait until you get yourself back in the driver's seat with your dogs, until they've had some training which Melanie described. Set them up to succeed by doing things methodically, in a structured setting, systematically and correctly. When it comes time to trying this, you need to start your dogs off by keeping a comfortable distance between them....enough that neither one is aroused by the other and work from there....reinforcing calm behavior and associating the presence of each other to very high value treats and praise. Then inch closer and work there for a while. Don't have them facing each other. Turn one sideways and get him to "watch you"....(this turned head is a calming signal dogs use to avoid conflict) You can have one lie down, facing away from the other a little bit...another calming signal. No nose to nose contact. You need to go very gradually, inch by inch, reinforcing heavily and frequently while they're in each other's presence and behaving. Then one is removed and all good stuff ends. Silence, ignoring, no attention given to the dog. Repeat bringing the dog in the room again and so on, back and forth for a session. End on a good note and separate them for the rest of the day until the next working session.....well, just read this whole thread.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62288&highlight=Frodo+Izzy+attack
 
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#34
I'll totally follow Melanie's advice and thank you Melanie for taking the time to reply. Thanks for finding the thread i'll take a look at it now :)
 

LuvToyDogs

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#35
"After having my eyelids torn off (from a cat not a dog)"

OWW!! :yikes: Really or is that hyperbole? ;)
 

Red_ACD_for_me

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#36
What do you guys think about the suggestion about getting the son fixed instead of both of them?

btw the two females are spayed :) no problems with any of the females.... yet... lol

Thanks again for everybody's help.
Personally, I would get them both done at the same time...............I would think to get the more aggressive one neutered which in this case would be the father and leave the more layed back one being the son intact JMO! Maybe someone else can give you better advice :)
 

heartdogs

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#37
My advice is to neuter both dogs, because occasionally an intact male still has issues with a neutered male. Best to eliminate all the testosterone (which, incidentally, takes a while to leave their systems once the neuter is done). In the meantime, I would separate them so that they cannot fight, since you don't want them to practice (and get perfect at ripping each other's little heads off).
The less they are practicing hating one another, the better chance you have.
If you cannot put an end to it with neutering and training (it sounds like you really do need to take charge in the home - but NOT with yelling), then you should consider re-homing one of them. It's better than the poor thing having to live with another dog after him all the time.
 

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