Bait bags

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Maxy24, Jan 9, 2009.

  1. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    I didn't want to say anything on the other thread because I didn't want a whole off topic discussion so i started one up here. You were all talking about bait bags and vests etc. that you use for treats and toys. I was wondering if any of you had ever run into problems with a dog who will not listen unless you have the bag. It's basically the same as holding the treat in your hand. I have been using a plastic plate to put Phoebe's treats on which I leave on the counter (it's lunch meat so I don't want to put it directly on the counter) and she gets excited when I bring out the plate which is not really what i want, it's basically me saying "hey dog, i have treats!!!!". I would really like to give a command without her knowing I have treats on me (until I give her one of course! which will be within the first few commands). I mean there is still the whole variable reinforcment schedule, she does not get a treat every time. but I'm afraid she'll learn that when I don't have a bait bag/the plate she will know she is NOT getting any reward no matter how many times she does it.

    Have any of you had there problems? I'd use my pocket if I used dry treats, but I'm not shoving bits of ham and roast beef in my jean pockets. I have not had problems yet because she is not my dog so i never really have her in a situation where I ask her for commands unless it's a training session, but I would like to move up to that and start working with her in busier places.
     
  2. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    I have had that problem before too, Maxy. Now I use a small bait bag and clip it to the back of my pants. THat way dogs don't know immediately whether or not I have a treat. I think it's also important to every once in a while, out of the blue, click (or "yes") your dog for doing something good and then run to the fridge and pull out a chunk of the first dog-edible thing you can find. That way the dog never knows when you might click, and the excitement of running to the fridge will be extra-reinforcing.
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Not much trouble because I don't always follow the same pattern. They don't get a treat every time anyhow once the behavior is well on it's way. They just think there's a good chance. LOL. I use to do a lot of my training when on a hike or walk...just refreshing recalls and stays here and there. I often didn't even take treats with me...just praise and then let them run off again to explore for their reward. I don't do a whole lot of formal-type training at all presently with the dogs I have. There are some things I need to refresh though. And a trick I want Chuli to learn. Then I often just use a counter top or table if I'm inside.
     
  4. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I don't use one (I have one but almost never use it) for that reason. I think it depends on your dog. The JRTs could pick up on that, I doubt the whippets would.
     
  5. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    i use one sometimes, sometimes not. depends on what i'm wearing. if i'm wearing jeans, there's not room for a baggie full of treats in my pocket. if i'm wearing a hoodie, i've got a nice pocket. if i'm at home, i can put the treats up somewhere, but if i'm in class or training outside somewhere, i need them to be on me somehow.
     
  6. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Personally I don't use bait bags for just that reason, it is also one of the reasons why the hunting vest works for *some* training.
    We are having a devil of a time right now with one of my student's dog. She started at another place, wore a bait bag and lured....................oh gezzz now all that dog does is try to get to where she 'thinks' the bait bag maybe. Causing lots of problems and I don't allow any bait bags in class, but I would bet my last dollar that the owner is still using one at home, because the problem in class should have gone away by now.
     
  7. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Ares. He was the first dog I did much training with. Always wore a bait bag -- the carpenter's apron. He would come out for training, look at my waist and if there was no bait bag, he wouldn't do anything good. I immediately started wearing an empty bait bag while putting treats everywhere else and it didn't take long to break the chow hound of that problem.

    If you vary it -- a bait bag, a carpenter apron, a fanny pack, a hunting vest, jeans pockets, jackets pockets, leave the treats on the shelf, etc. then the dog won't know whether or not there are treats based on your outfit.

    Laundry day gets interesting here as I find all sorts of bait in a variety of pockets :D
     
  8. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    If the dog gets overly interested in my pockets, he just doesn't score until he simmers down and gets to work. "No lookie, no cookie."

    No trick.... no treat! LOL!
     
  9. Phoenixangelwyngs

    Phoenixangelwyngs Zookeeper Extraordinaire!

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    I started training my boys for treats.... but then they didn't want to do anything for me without the treat bag. SOOOoooOO, I stopped using the treats. They now work off of praise and praise alone. I still give treats but I don't ask them to do anything for them. They needed to learn to listen regardless of whether or not I have food for them. Plus I got tired of being covering in dog slobber as they thoroughly searched my hands for any possible food scrap that may be lingering.
     
  10. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I stopped using a bait bag because I'm clumsy with them;). I knock them off, or end up yanking out all at once, etc. I sometimes use a tug toy with a pouch; that's easy to shove all the way into a pocket and open up just when I want treats. Or I keep dry treats in a pocket, or just shove the ham or turkey in a pocket loose, and make sure to do laundry that night!
     
  11. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    LOL BB. When I use to go to classes with Lyric, there were always Honey Nut Cheerios and little pieces of string cheese all over the arena and all the other dogs were distracted by them. I felt sooooooooo naughty being so clumsy. LOL.
     
  12. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    My personal specialty is to not close the top tightly, and to have treats bouncing out like popcorn when I'm running the course!
     
  13. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Mine is to not understand how the bag clips onto the pocket and to have it fall off, spewing treats all over the ground :D
     
  14. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    Thanks for all your replies, that is sort of what I thought. I think I'll just stop using them and I'll just wash the stupid counter when I'm done lol. I bought some freeze dried cod so hopefully she'll like that and I can use the for outside training in my pockets.

    Phoebe does not like to be touched very much, I think petting her would be closer to a punishment. I don't expect a dog to work for praise when he could instead go meet that dog or go greet that person or do anything else. Maybe a very praise motivated dog in an indoor/boring environment, but unless you are punishing the dog for not listening I don't think praise alone would work for 99% of dogs, I think you've been spoiled by your border collies ;)
    I KNOW dogs can learn to work without knowing you have treats, I was just wondering if the treat bag let them know you had treats and affected them like showing them a treat would. I don't lure with treats anymore so I'm not going to have a treat bag.

    We actually went for a walk the other day and I had food in my pocket (coat pockets work because they are big) and I asked her to sit and she did without knowing I had treats, then we moved on an d I asked her again and she did and she got a treat, so I was happy. Then after she knew I had treats we worked on other stuff, downs, spins, heeling (which is her newest thing, not perfect yet, she cannot pivett or go backwards) and I was amazed how well she did, she had never done them on walks. I was varied with treat giving. But We actually heeled half way down the street and did turns (wide ones but still) in both directions and she never missed a beat, I was pumped :D
     
  15. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    I clip it to the back of my waistband, so that every time I bend over I dump the whole bag down my pants.:rolleyes:
     
  16. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    In my house its 50%. Not exactly scientific with four dogs for comparison. Nyx doesn't like being touched, so for her petting would be at best unrewarding and at worst a mild aversive. She works well for food and is even better motivated for a toy.

    Ares doesn't find being petted to be aversive, but he doesn't view it as a reward. He works solely for food.

    Morgan and Tyr will happily accept food and toy rewards, but they will also eagerly work for just praise. Tyr has been known to walk away from food and toys in order to receive praise and petting from me.
     
  17. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    They need to listen but you need to make your reinforcers work. Dogs don't necessarily agree that they need to listen very well. We think that's the "right" thing for them to do. But they don't work that way....according to what we "expect." I always get a kick out of people who say, "I expect my dogs to obey. They need to listen whether they like it or not." Dogs don't work very well that way. They do what works best for them. Selfish little creeps. LOL.

    Rewards are only reinforcers when they change behavior and they need to be something the dog LOVES and I mean goes APE over. Praise is usually marginal. (for various reasons) If your dogs won't work unless you have food, that means that food is way up high on the hierarchy of potential reinforcers for your dogs. Now, just to get them so they work first, get treat after. That usually comes by varying where you retrieve your treat from and once the behavior is pretty regular, going to a variable reinforcement schedule so they don't know when they'll get something. They work anyhow in hopes of getting something one of these times....then spacing out even more, but reinforcing before they start giving up and flagging. If the treats aren't given when the dog is acting pushy, you won't reinforce pushiness. If they come out of the blue when the behavior is as you like it, that behavior will be reinforced.

    You can even do some exerciese that teach the dog that by not getting something by direct access, he will get it. This link is informative: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL26Zen.html

    I make sure to get my dogs so that they WILL comply and work, try things whether or not I have treats on my person. If I'm outside in my yard, I might use the picnic table or a branch on a tree to house my treats. Or up on the porch railing. I mark the behavior and then go get a treat from various places. Of course, it can't take more than a couple of seconds to get the treat and a clicker comes in handy to bridge the gap in time. The dog gets so into the game that if I skip a treat a few times, (once the behavior is pretty good) he'll keep trying. Gradually, over time I space them out more, but still give them something periodically. And it's not always a treat. But it must be something they go ape over. Starting out with lower value and increasing is important within a session. If you start out with the best and go down hill from there, it makes those reinforcers even less valued.

    Anyhow, I don't have too much trouble with the bag. They do love to work when I have it. But I make sure that they get conditioned to my not having it all the time but believe they stand a good chance. Plus, once they get into the habit of being reinforced for something and perform reliably, that in itself helps because the association is getting solidified between the response and the reinforcer...even if you don't have a reinforcer on you at the time. To comply becomes rewarding in itself on account of that association, like a conditioned reflex. But that's a little later down the road. (AND that won't last forever. Behaviors will often regress so you can't depend on that forever. They need to be reinforced periodically to be sure)

    Anyhow, just my take on it for what it's worth.
     
  18. cinnamon

    cinnamon New Member

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    LOL, I'm still chuckling at the vision :) Smart dog.
     
  19. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Yea...too smart :rolleyes:
     
  20. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    I wear a lot of pants with cargo pockets. The food goes in the pockets, or in a ziploc in the pockets if its nasty treats. Takes some fiddling to have it easily accessible, but because it's part of my clothing the dogs haven't gotten wise to it.
     

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