Back To Newspaper (sigh)

Discussion in 'Puppy Forum' started by jason_els, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    I've given-up on full crate training my 8-week old guys. I've now put them in the pen with lots of newspaper and a Purina litter box with more newspaper. I'm going to train them to use that until they're old enough to hold through the night.

    They beat me. I tried taking them out every 2 hours all weekend and I got, since Saturday morning (pups arrived Saturday pm), 6 hours of sleep. There's no way I could continue taking them out every 2 hours. The good part is they do like the crate and sleep in it. I'm going to newspaper everything under it and try to put them in the box every time they go so they know newspaper is ok to use. The breeder was using newspaper as well so they're not unfamiliar with it. I'm going to read-up more on litterbox training.

    I feel bad that I had to revert but at 8 weeks it will be months before they can hold their bowels long enough to permit me to work and sleep. There is no one else to help me with them and it finally dawned on me that I run the house and have to get their schedule and mine to find a good medium. I've been so worn-out I haven't been able to be a good puppy owner. I haven't had time to train them though we have had one-on-one getting-to-know-you quiet time. I concluded that if I'm going to be a good owner for them there will have to be some compromises and while crate training is ideal, I can't keep getting-up or rushing home every 2 hours. It's stressful on me and on the dogs and doesn't permit me time to work. I've tried letting them go 3 hours but 2 is their limit for now.

    I've paper trained before and it worked great. Transitioning isn't easy but then it's not all that difficult either. Litter, or newspaper box training looks to be a happy compromise. As I haven't found a way to treat them yet, all I can give is enthusiasm and that doesn't seem appropriate enough for something like proper elimination. So until then, we're in newspapers everywhere mode.

    I still haven't found a treat they respond to. I'm going to get some string cheese and turkey slices. They have no interest in the dried treats.

    I appreciate thoughts, tips, and opinions on this. I wish I could keep-up the outdoor schedule but at night between the late hour and the near zero temps, it's too hard on me and the dogs. The littler of the two starts shivering something awful in just a few minutes and I have to warm him afterwards. He gets so cold it scares me. Now we have a big dump of snow coming that will be far taller than they are and I worry about wet snow getting into their coats causing them chills.

    Thanks again for all your help!
     
  2. bumhouse

    bumhouse New Member

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    Where are you at and how big is a pumi? Maybe you can compare it to another breed to give me an idea. I have a very small Collie. He was only 4 lbs when I got him and your right, 2 hours wasn't nearly enough. We were taking him out every 20 minutes when he was awake. But - he was able to go from like 9 or 10 pm until 7am or so with only one run outside during the night until he was like 8 - 10 weeks old. We gave him no food or water after 7pm.

    You gotta do what you gotta do - plus you have 2 puppies not one and chances are they both don't always go at the same time. Like having twins I imagine. I hope it works out for you - Good Luck.....
     
  3. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    As I said before ......double trouble . Sounds like they are in the same pen . Another no-no . Good luck !!
     
  4. Saje

    Saje Island dweller

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    I guess I'm kind of lost. I must have missed why you got two at the same time and couldn't rehome the second? This is a very short time to give up on crate training. Are they not sleeping through the night? If they are sleeping through the night and you feed the last meal early in the evening I doubt you'd need to get up and take them out more than once. Unless they are fussing of course. Up to you! Seems like you are adding more work though.
     
  5. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    Thank you for your replies. I really do appreciate it :)

    Yes, they're in the same pen. In that I have no choice. I don't have another tiled room in which to put them. As they get older I will separate them more often and, eventually, give them separate pens. For right now though it's just not practical for me. My dad lives with me and he's not a dog person and he's set in his ways. I think he'll come to love the dogs too but he doesn't need the stress as he's not well.

    I spoke to the vet about littermate syndrome and he wasn't worried. I'm not terribly worried either. Both are becoming quite attached to me. I do take them out separately for periods of time. Today they spent an hour apart and there was no whining or anxiety from either of them. They both know I'm the boss. I don't treat them like children, they're dogs. I decide what they do and when. I lead. I think that's the most important thing.

    I just have to keep telling myself a lot of dogs don't have the love and care I provide to my dogs and that they'll turn out ok.

    Last night I took them out one last time before bed and then I went to sleep and got a good 7 hours. Amazing how a little sleep helps to put things in perspective. I can now clean the house, run errands, and such.

    The first weeks are always the hardest as they adjust to me and I adjust to them. I'm confident we'll find a happy medium.
     
  6. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    I got two because I didn't want either of them to end-up in a mill or another bad place. There's a thread I made in the general section about what went on.

    I gave-up on the crate training because they can't hold it through the night. They need to go every 2 hours. I've tried going longer but they're not able to hold it and I know it's the worst thing to have them mess in the crate. I can't wake-up every 2 hours to take them outside, particularly when it takes very little time for them to become very cold. We've had nights in the single digits and one poor guy shivers so badly in just a minute or two that I have to rewarm him in a blanket afterwards. His coat isn't as thick as his brother's. The vet gave him an ok though, listened to his lungs and heart, took his temp. He's not sick, just not as strong. I don't want them to get sick.

    During the day I take them out every 2 hours and they're good with that. Soon as we go out they pee and I praise liberally.

    My vet was ok with withdrawing food but not water. He says they should have access to water throughout the night so I can't shut that off.

    Again, they're 9 weeks. While some dogs might go 3 hours at that age, these guys don't and yes, they generally poop at separate times.

    As to rehoming. I spoke to the breed club and offered to keep them both until they're 6 months. At that time they can be neutered and it's at that point I'll decide. One of the dogs is very outgoing and happy and dominant, the other less so. We'll see how it goes.
     
  7. Access to water all night is not necessary as long as they have free access to it during the day.

    I pick up water no later than 10pm on ALL puppies.

    Your puppies are INFANTS at 8 weeks, and you should in no way expect a puppy of that age to be crate trained or clean throughout the night.

    Separate sleeping arrangements should be a priority for you at this point so you can tell who is going when.
     
  8. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Jason, you HAVE to start seperating them now. You've not had them for more than a couple days, everything is stil new to them at this point so of course they're not going to look like they're bonding to each other.

    Another thing, they are much too young to be taken out just every 2 hours. During the day, set a timer for every 30 minutes. Take them out religiously. Also, immediately after waking up from sleep or a nap, after playing and after eating. Praise profusely for going outside. Then crate them SEPERATELY when you cannot be paying full attention to them. Pick up food after 8pm, water by 10pm. Take them out at least twice more before bed time, put them in their seperate crates and set the alarm for 2am. Take them out once more. They should be able to hold it until 6am.

    Potty training one pup is a PIA, potty-training two even more so. You took on the responsiblity of two pups at once, it's your job to see it through. You can't get lazy at all, because the habits they learn now are the ones they will keep with them through their lifetime. Yes, sleeping is going to be cut back quite a bit. You should have realized this before agreeing to two pups. Even if you rehome one at 6 months, what are you going to be passing on with that dog?

    EVERYTHING must remain structured and consistant. Giving up now is only going to confuse them more. Pick a method and stick with it. I'd stick with the crates, personally.
     
  9. Saje

    Saje Island dweller

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    I agree with Red. They need to be separate for a lot of reasons. Littermate syndrome is the least of your concerns. You need to be able to regulate who eats what, what is going in and how it's coming out. You may think that the only reason to separate is so they don't bond too much but there is a lot more to it than that.

    I never suggested that you pull water up. Some think it's a great idea. It's a matter of opinion. Vets have different opinions too. Personally, I don't pull water up.

    You've been given good advice on this forum Jason. I really hope you'll take some of it to heart so you can prevent future problems.

    Edit: I agree with Zoom as well. She posted at the same time.
     
  10. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    You didn't want them to end up in a shelter. But by not potty training them properly now, that's where they may well end up, that is...unless you don't mind two grown dogs peeing and pooping all over your house. If you let them pee on newspapers in the house, that's still peeing in the house to them. They will not be able to discern the difference very well. If you decide to find one or both a home, who's going to want to adopt one or two un-housebroken dogs? They're very difficult to potty train as adults.

    They're infants, like it was said. They barely know it's coming when it comes out. They need to be taken out at least every 30-60 minutes during the day. Keep them up as late as you can and still get enough sleep and you should be able to get away with one trip during the night. Personally, I have never withheld water from any dog, but that's up to you.

    Nobody has a puppy potty trained by 8 weeks. That's just totally unreasonable. My Dobe was about 10 months old by the time he was reliable. They're all different. I've had dogs learn within a few weeks or a month. This is part of owning a puppy. Training them and developing discipline and patience within yourself. I don't mean to sound so blunt, but I hate to think of you having a miserable time with them later. Puppyhood lasts a short time, but adult hood is years. Six months is the average time for housebreaking. Average. But if these pups don't have consistancy in their training, they'll be miserable to live with. They can not learn this on their own.

    If you want to turn this around, read the stickies in the training forum on house breaking. There are some good tips. It's work, diligence, discipline, routine, a BIG change of life style. The time you usually use for your own thing is now used up for taking care of puppies, watching them, taking them out often, teaching them things, making sure they're not being reiforced for unwanted behavior. That's the way it is when you choose to have a puppy. When you choose to have two puppies, its all double the work.

    About the cold, how cold is it? What breed are these pups? Where I live, it can be anywhere from 25-30 F to 25-30 below zero F and about 3-4 feet of snow. I have all smooth coated dogs, from Doberman, to a mix, to two Chihuahuas. They all go outside to potty without coats and can come right back in. They do not have an option. They're fine.

    Find a treat your pups like. Anything that needs to eat to sustain life will like food, especially if it's extra good and if they're not just stuffed from their meal. Get some tiny pieces of fresh meat; chicken, liver, steak, pot roast, filet mignon with bernaise' sauce and mushrooms on top. Surely, there must be something they love. That's what needs to be given the instant they finish going outside and loads of praise. Accidents must be prevented inside. Consistancy and they'll get onto it in time.

    Otherwise, if you continue to feel defeated and cave, you're going to have two unenjoyable adult dogs to contend with or for someone else to contend with. Good luck. Get tough! LOL.
     
  11. Saje

    Saje Island dweller

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    That's another good point. You say that you love your pups and at least they have a safe warm home. This is so true. Nobody doubts that. But what about when these problems escalate? When you come home tired and find yourself frustrated and losing patience? Will you be short tempered? Will you withhold affection because they are on your last nerve? How will your dad handle it? These are things that you can't foresee but with proper training you can probably prevent it. You don't seem very open to any of this advice but I really hope you will reconsider. We really do just want to help you and your pups.
     
  12. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Jason ....excellent advice is being given to you . For all involved ..( expecially for the pups ) please take to heart .
     
  13. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    I have to agree with Grammy, Jason. You have been given great advise and that advise will absolutely help you to get your new pups on track. News paper and joint accomodations will without a doubt make it almost impossible to properly train your new babies.
    Two pups are a handful, but two pups without proper training...just a frightening thought.
     
  14. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    I'm getting confused here.

    There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

    Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

    What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

    Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?

    As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.

    What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.

    Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

    The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house. Now I don't quite believe that vet as plenty of cold weather dogs live where it gets far colder, but it illustrates the point that a lot of experts conflict when it comes to what's best. I wouldn't leave them out at that temp, but a quick in/out isn't too bad. It's when it's below 10F that really has me concerned as they cold so quickly.

    I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable :) . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.

    Is there a problem with this if I setup 2 separate pens with a crate, food, water, and a potty place for each? The crate/pens will have to be in the same room for now. There is another area I can use as well but I can't watch both areas at the same time.

    I realize not everyone will agree on what choices are made, but perhaps a consensus?

    Thank you all very much for taking the time to help me out.
     
  15. Saje

    Saje Island dweller

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    Okay, I'll try and break it down for you.

    Your guys have not even been given the chance to adjust to a new home and schedule before you quit on them. This is not magic. It won't happen overnig
    ht.
    I'm not sure how you are saying that. Are you setting children up for failure if you try to get them to understand the concepts of pottytraining before they can make it through the night? Is my school setting me up for failure by giving me skills that I won't be ready to use yet? This is training. It takes time. It's not magic. It's not going to happen overnight. You need to slow down and take it step by step. Don't expect miracles but do try to set them up to succeed.

    They can play inside. Only if they are supervised and you have them out one at a time. If you can't do that then it's best to take them both outside and play with them there. At least when they go they will be going in the right place and you will hopefully be there to offer praise.



    Like I said before everyone has a different opinion on this. Many people sucessfully housetrain pups without taking away water so go with your gut. Especially if you have a good vet.

    This is why many people recommend that people with fulltime jobs either adopt an older dog or bring the pup home during holidays. But you have already made your own decisions so now you have to work with them. One option is to find a pup sitter to take you out. Maybe an elderly person who would love a break in the afternoon and then a student when school lets out. Go home on your lunch. Do the best you can. You were quite determined to bring two pups home so now you have to work with it. What would Plan B be if you were newspaper training? Would they just have to sit by their filth all day? Or run free around the house to do what they want?

    Sure, many methods will work in the end but you are dealing with two very young pups. It's a completely different story.

    "Go outside" means what to this vet? I highly doubt a vet is telling all pet owners that a two-minute pee is bad for their health unless they are otherwise weak. I live in Canada and believe me, we don't have our pups peeing in our house.

    I don't know what to say to this. Is it a good idea? .. Well if you absolutely HAVE to teach your dogs to potty inside then I guess it's your best option. But, ultimately, no. In my opinion you are in over your head with the two pups. I hope you prove us wrong and have two keen pups who learn quickly!
     
  16. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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  17. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    Well they don't sit in their own filth. The area they have is a good 10 square feet. They're going in the corner furthest from their bed and food area. I also am taking them out from morning until they go to bed. Other than times longer than this, they have a clean pen. I have modified my schedule to make sure I'm here nearly all the time but sometimes I can't be. Every morning I clean their area using Nature's Miracle and lay down fresh paper with a sheet of previously slightly used paper in between and it stays clean because I take them out every two hours or after they've had play time.

    I've done the two littermate thing before though that time I had help. We managed OK and the dogs grew-up to be happy. Back then we had a bathroom and newspaper and the dogs stayed there. We did train them separately, take them places separately, but otherwise they were together all the time.

    Maybe I am in over my head. I hope I'm not. People have been raising dogs for thousands of years and I'm sure I'm not the first person to do it and I won't be the last. There are single moms and single dads out there raising kids in less than ideal situations but they manage. I hope to manage too and am looking for ideas how to do that. I'm learning a lot here and everyone is helpful and supportive. I am seriously considering rehoming one of the dogs as I think he would make a better working dog than a pet. It's only been 3 days. I'm not going to jump to any decisions until I see how things work out.

    The previous brothers we had were received at 6 weeks from a family who would have sent them to the pound. At least these guys are 8 weeks.

    My vet is exceptional. He graduated from Cornell and is very highly regarded by other vets in the area. I drive 22 miles to reach him. He diagnosed Tristan's lymphoma very early and immediately referred us to the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan; arguably the finest veterinary hospital in the world. Their oncologists were impressed he caught the symptoms so early and had nothing but praise for the care Tristan received with my vet.

    I do praise them when they go outside. I praise as much as I can. I get animated and happy and look like an idiot, but I want them to know it makes me happy to go outside. I'm not just chucking them in a room with a bowl and some newspaper never to let them out like the relative in the basement we don't talk about. We go outside a lot. I take them separately and together. I had to go out twice today. Each time I took a different dog and we went and visited the tire shop and the insurance agency. They see me nearly all day. My desk is 10 feet from their pen area, and my bed a few feet from that. They're not alone at all.
     
  18. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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  19. jason_els

    jason_els New Member

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    It's the lack of nearby services and traffic that makes some things take a while. Our town is full of chic boutiques and no box stores. If you need to buy clothes or electronics or get your car serviced or go to the vet, it's always at least an hour to do what you need and get home, sometimes traffic or inability to find what you need makes it take much longer.

    It would but then I wouldn't sleep, work wouldn't get done, I'd be broke, sick, and the dogs would have to be rehomed as I'd lose mine. I don't believe there are people out there crating their dogs and taking them out every 30 minutes or every hour or two or three hours. That's slavery. Like a previous poster said, what do I want to end up doing? Hating my dogs because they've worn me down to nothing?

    Now that is an idea I can live with. It makes sense! I hear the heavenly cherubim! Thank you! Dobe was right, you're good at this. Are you a trainer? Should I crate train them to use that? They seem to get the idea of the newspaper as the breeder started them on that. Is there someplace that describes how to do it?
     
  20. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    All you really have to do is put the paper that you're currently using into the rubbermaid lid and place the lid where you normally placed the paper. You can lift them into it, giving them their verbal potty cue to encourage them to use it. You may even add blotted pee or other accidents onto the paper in the lid to give them the idea.

    If they already have the paper down pat, they should catch on fairly quickly.

    I always recommend layering the newspaper so that you can keep it clean while still leaving some scent on the lower layers of paper.
     

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