I've given-up on full crate training my 8-week old guys. I've now put them in the pen with lots of newspaper and a Purina litter box with more newspaper. I'm going to train them to use that until they're old enough to hold through the night. They beat me. I tried taking them out every 2 hours all weekend and I got, since Saturday morning (pups arrived Saturday pm), 6 hours of sleep. There's no way I could continue taking them out every 2 hours. The good part is they do like the crate and sleep in it. I'm going to newspaper everything under it and try to put them in the box every time they go so they know newspaper is ok to use. The breeder was using newspaper as well so they're not unfamiliar with it. I'm going to read-up more on litterbox training. I feel bad that I had to revert but at 8 weeks it will be months before they can hold their bowels long enough to permit me to work and sleep. There is no one else to help me with them and it finally dawned on me that I run the house and have to get their schedule and mine to find a good medium. I've been so worn-out I haven't been able to be a good puppy owner. I haven't had time to train them though we have had one-on-one getting-to-know-you quiet time. I concluded that if I'm going to be a good owner for them there will have to be some compromises and while crate training is ideal, I can't keep getting-up or rushing home every 2 hours. It's stressful on me and on the dogs and doesn't permit me time to work. I've tried letting them go 3 hours but 2 is their limit for now. I've paper trained before and it worked great. Transitioning isn't easy but then it's not all that difficult either. Litter, or newspaper box training looks to be a happy compromise. As I haven't found a way to treat them yet, all I can give is enthusiasm and that doesn't seem appropriate enough for something like proper elimination. So until then, we're in newspapers everywhere mode. I still haven't found a treat they respond to. I'm going to get some string cheese and turkey slices. They have no interest in the dried treats. I appreciate thoughts, tips, and opinions on this. I wish I could keep-up the outdoor schedule but at night between the late hour and the near zero temps, it's too hard on me and the dogs. The littler of the two starts shivering something awful in just a few minutes and I have to warm him afterwards. He gets so cold it scares me. Now we have a big dump of snow coming that will be far taller than they are and I worry about wet snow getting into their coats causing them chills. Thanks again for all your help!