Are CM's methods abusive - link

[Saeleofu]

And here's the video: View Today's Top Videos on Comcast.net | Featured Videos| Popular Videos | Comcast.net

The dog is pretty limp when he does down, and you can see him struggling to breathe once the leash is let loose. He also goes down BEFORE the dude ever touches his neck, which tells me the dog lost consciousness. He also points out as the dog is recovering on the ground that the dog is "still excited" because he's gasping for breath >.<

 

[Southpaw]

In some instances I can tolerate him... I've read a couple of his books and they didn't bother me like the show does.

I just hate the people that try to imitate him. My brother thinks the answer to every problem is to pin the dog on its side. One of his dogs is a no-nonsense kind of girl and is not interested in playing with other dogs... so when Juno was a puppy, naturally they had a bit of an issue, with Juno wanting to bug her. She gave Juno what, in my mind, were appropriate "back off" signals, but my brother pinned her down to "teach her a lesson." He does it for everyyyy little behavior. He insists that I should do this more often to Juno and Lucy, too.

Or the claw in the neck? My dogs just look at me like "what are you doing?" if I try that on them just to humor people.

 

[stardogs]

I think I've mentioned it here before, but I've actually purposely desensitized the tsst and poke stuff with my dogs; both are now cues to bounce around acting like a nut!

I decided to train this when we ran into someone at the shelter I used to work at who would actually do that to other peoples' dogs without permission. She was a volunteer and wasn't there all the time thankfully, but better safe than sorry.

 

[puppydog]

I think I've mentioned it here before, but I've actually purposely desensitized the tsst and poke stuff with my dogs; both are now cues to bounce around acting like a nut!

I decided to train this when we ran into someone at the shelter I used to work at who would actually do that to other peoples' dogs without permission. She was a volunteer and wasn't there all the time thankfully, but better safe than sorry.

:rofl1: Love it!

I think if someone did that to my dog I would tsst and punch them in the face.

 

[smkie]

I would never treat my dogs like that and they mind just fine. IT would be a betrayal.
I hated the episode where he taught the great danes to swim...just hated it. Must get results in 30 minutes or less is not my idea of training because it leaves out the dog's figuring it out, making a willful choice to please, and getting the reward for THAT not just for the act at hand.

 

[MPP]

CM is right about some things. Dogs do need rules, boundaries, and limitations. They do need exercise, almost always more than they get, and they certainly need affection. But past that? He's just scary. I just don't understand how people can watch him jerk their dogs around, terrify already-fearful dogs until they just give up, LOOM over dogs---and never once think that he's abusing them. Are they blind?!?

I'm not a very good trainer, yet I taught my dogs to sit politely while I dished out their food and to wait for my signal before eating. It took me two sessions, one to teach and one to remind/proof. I never said one single negative word and never once had to roll them, block them, or even tsst them.

His methods are outmoded and abusive; his admirers are even worse, since they have even less idea what they're doing. It's amazing that more of them haven't had their faces bitten off!

 

[release the hounds]

And here's the video: View Today's Top Videos on Comcast.net | Featured Videos| Popular Videos | Comcast.net

The dog is pretty limp when he does down, and you can see him struggling to breathe once the leash is let loose. He also goes down BEFORE the dude ever touches his neck, which tells me the dog lost consciousness. He also points out as the dog is recovering on the ground that the dog is "still excited" because he's gasping for breath >.<

For real, this is the video that has everyone up in arms? Yeah, this dog was choked out, no doubt. as it should have been.

There was NOTHING and I mean NOTHING done to that dog to cause it to react like it did, you can hate his psst, or whatever noise he makes or a foot tap to try and get the focus back on him, but fact of the matter is, anybody who claps, whistles, says "hey" sharply to break a dogs focus is doing the exact same thing.

what would you have done in that situation, stood there and get eaten up by a pretty large dog? I'm pretty sure when the dog hit the end of the line and the handler wasn't letting him get to what he wanted he would have come back up the leash you whomever was there.

What would YOU have done?

please. you make it sound like he was making dogs pass out to train them, that was about safety.

You can dislike a guy, and trust me, there are things about his training I do not like, but to start reaching like this? Please, I hate bullshit, at least stay real about it.

 

[Saeleofu]

I would like to see what preceded the situation.

But, the part that I really hate is that he chokes the dog, then claims that he alpha rolled it and that's why he's suddenly so calm. The dog is calm because it's freaking half dead, not because he was alpha rolled (and he wasn't even alpha rolled, he ****ing passed out).

 

[Dekka]

He provoked the dog. Why was he taking an on edge dog and trying to provoke a reaction? I feel sad for dogs that they are expected to 'take' this sort of treatment where no other domestic animal is.

He was trying to get a reaction to make 'good tv' if it was about training the dog he wouldnt' have done that. *unless he is stupid, and I don't think he is.

 

[release the hounds]

the dog wasn't half dead, don't be dramatic. I've seen more than a few dogs choke themselves out pulling against a leash. Nowhere close to death, don't make it sound like it was.

You can be upset he set the dog up to fail, or whatever, but i hate dramatic crap to try and "prove" one's point of view.

 

[Saeleofu]

So, you think there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with the situation? Not how it started in the first place, not what happened during, and not the explanation given afterwards?

That's pretty ignorant to me.

 

[Doberluv]

I can't do videos from this computer, but I remember these pictures. It's not all about physical abuse, but psychological. Just take a look at these dogs' bodies and expressions, and Cesars'....even without looking at the video, just the pictures, I see what they're feeling. It's a shame, especially when it's totally unnecessary! And why can't other people see this?!?!?!?! What is wrong with them? I see nothing wrong with interrupting by saying, "hey!" or "eh-eh" whatever. But to do something to the degree that it causes a dog to cower or cringe is over-the-top. Most of what Cesar does with dogs is about intimidation, threats, force and absolutely no understanding of canine body language, behavior or the nature of domestic dogs. It's all extreme over-kill and completely unnecessary to do to domestic dogs.

Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, that is his M.O. He routinely provokes dogs that are already stressed out by doing the things he does. He takes a situation that is bad and does just exaclty and specifically what one needs to do to make it worse. All the time. That's Cesar's Way.

 

[puppydog]

What I would have done with Shadow:

I would not set him up in a high stress situation first and foremost.
I would be sure to have him clicker proofed and have a bag FULL of HIGH value treats for him.
I would walk him calmly up and down with no dogs around and click and treat him constantly for not being a douche.
I would then introduce a dog he is comfortable with and keep that dog at a happy distance. Click and treat him like crazy.
Slowly decrease the distance from the dog until his comfort level with the dog is at close range.
I would then repeat this with a dog he does not know. If he starts showing warning signs, get inbetween him and the dog, block his view and treat for looking at you and not the dog.

Continue until dog is happy with other dogs because other dogs mean treats.

Or, if you want to look macho, choke the living sh*t out of him.

 

[release the hounds]

So, you think there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with the situation? Not how it started in the first place, not what happened during, and not the explanation given afterwards?

That's pretty ignorant to me.

no, what's ignorant is seeing a dog that is going coming back up a leash to eat the guy on the other end, and rushing to proclaim, "i hate cesar, he chokes dogs to the point of unconciousness to traing them" that is ignorant, dramatic and crap. That's not at all what happened.

and No, I don't think how it started was bad at all. I have seen a dog just pulling on a leash, not locked on to another dog that it definitely wanted a piece of, but on me, with a tug toy. The dog turned immediately and went back up the leash at the handler and bit her up pretty good before I could get her off.

The handler did nothing but stand there. Dog's do this, and if it ever happens to you, you better be ready to do exactly as he did, or enjoy your trip to the ER afterwards.

you may not think a dog should be in that position, but even after desensitizing, playing with thresholds, working into a zone while playing or focus with food and all sorts of good things, there may come a time in training or on the street where something just like this can happen. Things aren't always pretty in real life like we can make them sound while trying to train dogs on the internet. and if it does, what are YOU going to do?

wanna debate that a dog shouldn't be in that position, fine, but to take something that happened as a matter of safety and turn it into something else to "prove" your point of view, well sell it to someone else.

 

[JacksonsMom]

He came to my school to do a talk and I got to meet him

I think he is a very nice man, and daddy (the dog) is incredibly sweet.

but I also don't agree with his training methods and wouldn't use them on my dogs.

I don't think ALL his training methods are abusive..but I do think there are a few shows where he has gone too far.

I think the biggest danger isn't even Cesar himself.
its the people who watch the show and try to mimick him

^^ This.

 

[release the hounds]

one thing seeing this particular video and reading the endless Cesar threads is one person has great control over their emotions, the rest? not so much and about that, there isn't much question

 

[Doberluv]

I agree that **** happens sometimes out in the "field." It does and while it may not be ideal that the dog was set into that position, ideal doesn't always happen. So, you have to do what you have to do to keep something from getting worse or more dangerous. Sometimes that means dragging them by their collar or being harsh in some other way. Of course, this is not training. It's managing an emergency situation. It's always prudent to try to avoid placing dogs in such situations and thus reducing the odds of having a dangerous situation present itself.

I think the difference between good trainers or owners and people like Cesar is that good trainers are always thinking ahead and understand canine behavior well enough to know what dogs are apt to do in various scenarios. Cesar, on the other hand routinely places dogs in situations that you can see way ahead of time are likely to end in a mess. He puts dogs into situations in the name of "training..." no, not training, "rehabilitiating" (eh-hem) that push them past their thresholds all the time. Then he punishes them on top of their already stressed out conditions.

The vast majority of what he does is NOT good for dogs. And it is, in fact abusive. To argue otherwise shows a real ignorance in the way dogs think, learn and behave. To do what he does to dogs when having had the opportunity to be educated in the way dogs are, to resist all the many real animal experts' words, shows a real disrespect for them as the amazing animals and gifts to humans that they are.

 

[Danefied]

First of all let me say that I watched the entire Shadow episode before NG took it down.

He started out with the prong collar the dog normally uses and Shadow got amped up (as expected). Milan had the other dog move away, got Shadow back under control, turned his leather leash in to a slip lead and then put Shadow right back in to the same situation - never did a darned thing to show Shadow what he wanted, never gave Shadow any alternate behaviors to offer. Just threw him right back in to fail - AGAIN. That's macho "I'll show him" BS that I have no patience for, and yes I will call it abuse. The dog's tongue was blue, he lost bladder control, and there was no reason whatsoever for it other than someone had to prove on TV how big his balls are.

 

[corgipower]

There was NOTHING and I mean NOTHING done to that dog to cause it to react like it did

Did we watch the same video?

First the dog is intentionally put in a situation where he's over threshold. Second, when the dog looks at the other dog, CM kicks him. The kick prompted the dog to come up the leash at him. I wouldn't at all call that NOTHING.

no, what's ignorant is seeing a dog that is going coming back up a leash to eat the guy on the other end, and rushing to proclaim, "i hate cesar, he chokes dogs to the point of unconciousness to traing them"

I've been there. I've had dogs come up the leash at me. Heck, Nyx used to start every day by doing that, simply because she thought it was a fun thing to do. I did what I needed to do for safety in the moment and then proceeded to teach the dog more acceptable alternatives. What I needed to do never ended with the dog lying on the ground gasping for air.

When a trainer comes to the house to work with a dog like that, it's an ideal time to get subthreshold and work through the issues in a controlled setting with a stable dog that the trainer can keep at a sufficient distance, not provoke the dog into a fight for his life.