Any one else read - Redemption?
- Thread starter mwood322
- Start date
I haven't read it, but the reviews on Amazon are interesting.
I'm dubious about his claim that there are enough homes for every dog and cat in the US, though, especially cats. Cats reproduce sooo ridiculously quickly (they can be in heat almost CONSTANTLY until mated, unlike dogs who only go into heat twice a year and also they can become pregnant with Litter #2 while nursing Litter #1) and a lot of people, unfortunately, regard them as more "disposable" than dogs and are less likely to spay/neuter them for some reason.
He says that more homes for cats become available every year than the number of cats in shelters . . . That doesn't make much sense to me considering cats can easily live to 20 years old. If a cat is properly taken care of, it won't die and "free up a spot" in a home for a looong time. So if all these homes are becoming available for cats . . . are their cats living the natural term of their lifespan? If not, why not? Are these good homes for cats or only potential homes for cats? And could some of these homes be available because the owners dumped their cat at the shelter when they were moving or such? Just some random thoughts.
My personal observation from watching the local shelters is that there clearly IS a severe cat overpopulation problem.
I'm reading a few online interviews by him and he's highly critical of PETA and HSUS. That's fine, anyone who knows much about animal welfare knows those groups are nutty. But I hope he's not equating all animal shelters and local humane socities (which are not funded by HSUS) with those groups. Because most animal shelter workers certainly don't support PETA or PETA's goals.
I would argue that the correlation between a high number pet stores and animal shelters could be for another reason . . . Namely that people who buy an animal on an impulse without researching its breed . . . especially an animal that turns out to have health or behavioral problems, like pet store puppies so often do . . . is more likely to dump it at a shelter. San Francisco may have few or no pet shops . . . but you've also got to take into consideration the fact that California has the toughest puppy "lemon laws" in the country which could be a different reason for the failure of pet shops there.
I do think animal shelters should work hard at getting publicity and PR, though, so that they're people's first thought when they think "I want to get a dog/cat.".
I'm dubious about his claim that there are enough homes for every dog and cat in the US, though, especially cats. Cats reproduce sooo ridiculously quickly (they can be in heat almost CONSTANTLY until mated, unlike dogs who only go into heat twice a year and also they can become pregnant with Litter #2 while nursing Litter #1) and a lot of people, unfortunately, regard them as more "disposable" than dogs and are less likely to spay/neuter them for some reason.
He says that more homes for cats become available every year than the number of cats in shelters . . . That doesn't make much sense to me considering cats can easily live to 20 years old. If a cat is properly taken care of, it won't die and "free up a spot" in a home for a looong time. So if all these homes are becoming available for cats . . . are their cats living the natural term of their lifespan? If not, why not? Are these good homes for cats or only potential homes for cats? And could some of these homes be available because the owners dumped their cat at the shelter when they were moving or such? Just some random thoughts.
My personal observation from watching the local shelters is that there clearly IS a severe cat overpopulation problem.I'm reading a few online interviews by him and he's highly critical of PETA and HSUS. That's fine, anyone who knows much about animal welfare knows those groups are nutty. But I hope he's not equating all animal shelters and local humane socities (which are not funded by HSUS) with those groups. Because most animal shelter workers certainly don't support PETA or PETA's goals.
I would argue that the correlation between a high number pet stores and animal shelters could be for another reason . . . Namely that people who buy an animal on an impulse without researching its breed . . . especially an animal that turns out to have health or behavioral problems, like pet store puppies so often do . . . is more likely to dump it at a shelter. San Francisco may have few or no pet shops . . . but you've also got to take into consideration the fact that California has the toughest puppy "lemon laws" in the country which could be a different reason for the failure of pet shops there.
I do think animal shelters should work hard at getting publicity and PR, though, so that they're people's first thought when they think "I want to get a dog/cat.".
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Well, I guess I'll have to encourage people to read it.
I liked it and thought he brought up a lot of good points. There are still many local SPCAs that won't adopt out pit bulls, don't neuter all animals before adoption, euthanize feral cats on principle, and are never open at hours people could actually visit. Which a lot of people are going to agree to anyway.
His main gripe was that many areas are holding onto more legislation as the answer, rather than low cost spay neuter programs, TNR feral cat programs, Foster Care programs and Evening Hours or Satellite adoption programs. And not killing animals for "space".
I will admit the book is going to annoy a lot of people, It takes the blame on the "overpopulation" off the "stupid public", and puts it on the shelters actually killing the animals. It also has a lot to say about "outdoor" cats killing animals, and how many cats come from an unneutered pair.
Realistically, I'm personally not contributing to the overpopulation problem. All my pets are neutered or contained, so obviously not all the public is stupid, lots of it is just too poor to afford to neuter. And making a law that requires neutering without making it affordable, just means impounding and killing those dogs that had a home but weren't neutered.
And I'll admit there is at least one "shelter" in my area that has many of those problems. The dogs get ten days. On the tenth day they are adoptable, it's the same day they get put down. They're open for 2 hours each day for viewing hours, mostly 11-1pm. Kinda makes it hard to get those families people seem to want to adopt dogs if you're never open when they could come.
There's another I drive by on my way to work that is open from 4:30 to 5 pm three days a week. Wow, they're really trying hard to get those animals adopted huh. They're open for 1 1/2 hours in a week. But don't worry you can surrender whenever you want.
I'll totally admit that not all shelters are like this, but there still are plenty of them, and they aren't doing the animals any favors. And I've been to some of em.
--Mia
I liked it and thought he brought up a lot of good points. There are still many local SPCAs that won't adopt out pit bulls, don't neuter all animals before adoption, euthanize feral cats on principle, and are never open at hours people could actually visit. Which a lot of people are going to agree to anyway.
His main gripe was that many areas are holding onto more legislation as the answer, rather than low cost spay neuter programs, TNR feral cat programs, Foster Care programs and Evening Hours or Satellite adoption programs. And not killing animals for "space".
I will admit the book is going to annoy a lot of people, It takes the blame on the "overpopulation" off the "stupid public", and puts it on the shelters actually killing the animals. It also has a lot to say about "outdoor" cats killing animals, and how many cats come from an unneutered pair.
Realistically, I'm personally not contributing to the overpopulation problem. All my pets are neutered or contained, so obviously not all the public is stupid, lots of it is just too poor to afford to neuter. And making a law that requires neutering without making it affordable, just means impounding and killing those dogs that had a home but weren't neutered.
And I'll admit there is at least one "shelter" in my area that has many of those problems. The dogs get ten days. On the tenth day they are adoptable, it's the same day they get put down. They're open for 2 hours each day for viewing hours, mostly 11-1pm. Kinda makes it hard to get those families people seem to want to adopt dogs if you're never open when they could come.
There's another I drive by on my way to work that is open from 4:30 to 5 pm three days a week. Wow, they're really trying hard to get those animals adopted huh. They're open for 1 1/2 hours in a week. But don't worry you can surrender whenever you want.
I'll totally admit that not all shelters are like this, but there still are plenty of them, and they aren't doing the animals any favors. And I've been to some of em.
--Mia
There are definitely a lot of great pet owners and a lot more people spaying/neutering than twenty years ago, which is great. But there's still a big percentage of the population that is just, well, stupid when it comes to animals. I worked in an office and the people there could discuss issues intelligently, but all the same, there were the following occurances:
1. Manager bought a puggle off the internet.
2. Other manager bought her English springer spaniels from some guy selling puppies on the side of the road--even after her previous springer turned out to have Rage syndrome, which you would think would make her a more discriminating buyer.
3. Coworker bought her chihuahuas from a BYB.
4. Same coworker was going to breed them to a French bulldog and sell the puppies.
5. Same coworker was going to "get rid of" her chihuahuas when they grew "too big." (They grew to be about the size of beagles. Yay for BYBs.)
6. Same coworker bought a new chihuahua from a BYB after her husband got the first two chihuahuas out of the divorce settlement.
7. Same coworker was going to get rid of the new chihuahua because she had a new baby.
8. Different coworker bought a border collie from a BYB, to be an "outside only" dog.
9. That coworker intends to breed her border collie to "get her money back" selling the puppies.
And this in one small office of fifteen people. These people weren't buying from BYBs because the local animal shelters--of which we have THREE, not counting rescue groups--don't have any animals, or don't have convenient hours, or aren't thinking outside the box. They bought them from BYBs because they're dog-stupid! And one BYB pumping out puppies can impact a whole lot of dogs. In fact, the irresponsible portion of the public sadly has much more of an effect on the pet population than the responsible portion of the public because the responsible portion doesn't breed for no reason, doesn't let their animal wander lose 24/7, doesn't dump their animal at a shelter if they're moving . . . Well, you get the idea.
The American public does want to do the right thing . . . but another part of the American psyche is the urge for instant gratification (fast food, fast service, NextDayPets.com) and trendy pets. The coworker with the chihuahuas would never have adopted a pet from the animal shelter unless they had chihuahua puppies. Not even just chihuahuas. Chihuahua puppies. The tinier the better.
1. Manager bought a puggle off the internet.
2. Other manager bought her English springer spaniels from some guy selling puppies on the side of the road--even after her previous springer turned out to have Rage syndrome, which you would think would make her a more discriminating buyer.
3. Coworker bought her chihuahuas from a BYB.
4. Same coworker was going to breed them to a French bulldog and sell the puppies.
5. Same coworker was going to "get rid of" her chihuahuas when they grew "too big." (They grew to be about the size of beagles. Yay for BYBs.)
6. Same coworker bought a new chihuahua from a BYB after her husband got the first two chihuahuas out of the divorce settlement.
7. Same coworker was going to get rid of the new chihuahua because she had a new baby.
8. Different coworker bought a border collie from a BYB, to be an "outside only" dog.
9. That coworker intends to breed her border collie to "get her money back" selling the puppies.
And this in one small office of fifteen people. These people weren't buying from BYBs because the local animal shelters--of which we have THREE, not counting rescue groups--don't have any animals, or don't have convenient hours, or aren't thinking outside the box. They bought them from BYBs because they're dog-stupid! And one BYB pumping out puppies can impact a whole lot of dogs. In fact, the irresponsible portion of the public sadly has much more of an effect on the pet population than the responsible portion of the public because the responsible portion doesn't breed for no reason, doesn't let their animal wander lose 24/7, doesn't dump their animal at a shelter if they're moving . . . Well, you get the idea.
The American public does want to do the right thing . . . but another part of the American psyche is the urge for instant gratification (fast food, fast service, NextDayPets.com) and trendy pets. The coworker with the chihuahuas would never have adopted a pet from the animal shelter unless they had chihuahua puppies. Not even just chihuahuas. Chihuahua puppies. The tinier the better.
I haven't read the book, but I have doubts as to his theory. There can't POSSIBLY be more homes than animals available. For example, if I look in the classifieds, I usually see about 7 different ads for labrador retriever puppies. Say each was a litter of 10. That's 70 puppies. Are there really 70 people out there looking for a lab pup? I doubt it. So where are 70 puppies supposed to go?
He isn't talking about BYB dogs, or pet store dogs. He concentrates on animals once they have hit a shelter.
Does having a shelter that is clean, friendly and open convenient hours make more dogs in general get adopted, or found by their owners, in your area?
Does making sure animals are neutered before physically leaving the shelter cut down on offspring that would otherwise end up in a shelter?
Can everyone agree that improving in small ways does impact animal adoption?
I know personally I've been to nice shelters and ones I would consider pits. The pits don't seem to have good adoption rates, but they sure are good at complaining about how the public is making them have to kill dogs.
Again I say read the book, preferrably with an open mind.
--Mia
Does having a shelter that is clean, friendly and open convenient hours make more dogs in general get adopted, or found by their owners, in your area?
Does making sure animals are neutered before physically leaving the shelter cut down on offspring that would otherwise end up in a shelter?
Can everyone agree that improving in small ways does impact animal adoption?
I know personally I've been to nice shelters and ones I would consider pits. The pits don't seem to have good adoption rates, but they sure are good at complaining about how the public is making them have to kill dogs.
Again I say read the book, preferrably with an open mind.
--Mia
10 puppies to a litter is a guess though. Average litter size for a lab is 6-8, and without knowing actual litter sizes it's all guessing. They could have only had 4 pups, or one could have had 12. Without actual data it's all a wash.
And there wouldn't be seventy puppies, they'll manage to sell a good number and say (giant guess) 10-15 end up in rescue. There are certainly 10-15 people going to a rescue to get a lab puppy.
Either way. The book only deals with dogs once they actually arrive at a shelter. Those dogs for sale from other sources do not factor into his equation.
--Mia
And there wouldn't be seventy puppies, they'll manage to sell a good number and say (giant guess) 10-15 end up in rescue. There are certainly 10-15 people going to a rescue to get a lab puppy.
Either way. The book only deals with dogs once they actually arrive at a shelter. Those dogs for sale from other sources do not factor into his equation.
--Mia
Mia,
Thanks for the heads up on Redemption. From what I can tell the author has a lot of personal experience running shelters, and has views that run counter to those of most.
I have just ordered it from Amazon.
Here is a link to the author's blog: http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2007/10/redemption-tops-500-list.html
It has links to quite a few interesting sites that back up his claims.
I imagine it would be very difficult to convince most people who work in shelters that there is no dog/cat overpopulation problem, or that the public is not dog stupid and uncaring.
However, I do think he makes very strong points about the need for vastly increased funding for education and awareness, as well as low or no cost spay neuter clinics.
I am pleased to hear about the success no kill/and education has had in San Fransisco, but I am not sure this success would transfer to some rural areas where dogs and cats are looked at more often as personal property or tools than as cohabitants of our planet.
Sounds like a fascinating book.
Thanks for the heads up on Redemption. From what I can tell the author has a lot of personal experience running shelters, and has views that run counter to those of most.
I have just ordered it from Amazon.
Here is a link to the author's blog: http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/2007/10/redemption-tops-500-list.html
It has links to quite a few interesting sites that back up his claims.
I imagine it would be very difficult to convince most people who work in shelters that there is no dog/cat overpopulation problem, or that the public is not dog stupid and uncaring.
However, I do think he makes very strong points about the need for vastly increased funding for education and awareness, as well as low or no cost spay neuter clinics.
I am pleased to hear about the success no kill/and education has had in San Fransisco, but I am not sure this success would transfer to some rural areas where dogs and cats are looked at more often as personal property or tools than as cohabitants of our planet.
Sounds like a fascinating book.
Labs do tend to have large litters, but that doesn't mean they all will, or that all the puppies survived to be sold. And they would certainly manage to sell at least a puppy each, or they wouldn't bother doing it. They'd only have to end up with ten unsold puppies once before they decided it might not have been a good idea.
The book has at least 4 shelters where he outlined vast increases in adoption versus killing, including a rural New York shelter, and a rural Virginia shelter. Another was an inner-city shelter in Pennsylvania that had a 90% kill rate before changing some policies. These are in addition to San Francisco's success of the 90's.
--Mia
The book has at least 4 shelters where he outlined vast increases in adoption versus killing, including a rural New York shelter, and a rural Virginia shelter. Another was an inner-city shelter in Pennsylvania that had a 90% kill rate before changing some policies. These are in addition to San Francisco's success of the 90's.
--Mia