Any American Cocker breeders that leave natural tails?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Sparrow, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. Sparrow

    Sparrow New Member

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    Do any exist in the US or Canada? One with excellent lines, of course. I grew up with a Cocker, and thought I'd never have one again because of all the health problems she had, but I think I'd go for it some day if I found a place with the right lines that didn't dock.
     
  2. SevenSins

    SevenSins Guest

    Docking is a breed standard requirement in NA through all legitimate NA registries, so I can't imagine that any "reputable" breeder here would be leaving tails intact. In my (extremely) limited Google search I did find a few kennels in some parts of Europe that produce very nice looking, intact American Cockers. I liked Four Seasons' dogs in Hungary http://fourseasons.uw.hu/ especially (well, some of them, not a fan at all of the bitch they have a current litter out of, but I really liked some of their other bitches). It also looks as though they health test their dogs, but I don't know what tests are necessary in the breed. Assuming of course that you'd be open to the possibility of having to import from further away to begin with. :)
     
  3. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I don't know of any off hand, but more breeders ARE leaving tails on dogs, or at least thinking about it. My most favorite ESS breeder is starting to leave tails on puppies!
     
  4. Sparrow

    Sparrow New Member

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    Thanks. I was hoping it would start to go that way, as it is banned in some countries entirely, isn't it? I thought registries were starting to look into making it optional, but maybe soon.

    This would probably be a few years off, so maybe by then...
     
  5. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    ^this.
    I don't know any personally.. but I would do some digging. Maybe look up some natural rearing breeders, I have found they are often more open to "leaving things be"
    I know quite a few breeders who now are leaving tails on mismarks.. perhaps find a breeder and ask.
     
  6. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    Canada, docking isn't a confo requirement. Have to be a big name to win with a tailed dog though.

    Good number of skeazy folk leaving tails on.. Majority of breeders I like do at least minor hunting with their dogs or other field work trials, and want dogs who also win in the confo ring.

    Offhand I can't think of a breeder who I feel is well rounded on health, temperament and proving their dogs who doesn't dock. But, I am just fine with docking in my breed of choice and hope NA doesn't go the way of EU with bans on docking and cropping.
     
  7. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Banned in the uk for non working dogs, but bit far ;) and not many American cockers here....
     
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow New Member

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    I would really like a naturally reared dog either way, regardless of which breed I end up with, and figure they might be my best bet for this.

    BTW, I forgot to mention I'd be getting a dog for performance, so comformation beyond being built well isn't important. Color, marks, whatever wouldn't matter. I want a healthy dog with a good temperament and the ability and willingness to be a hiking/running/agility buddy. I realize breeders not going for comformation can be nasty, but for me, I'm looking for performance lines rather than show lines.

    I really adore the look of your Smudge! Seeing your dogs is part of what got me interested in them again after I joined here, as well as watching one at some local agility trials.

    I grew up with one, as did my boyfriend, and I had given up on the breed due to the health issues. But I know there are better lines now, 20-25 years later.

    I'm in Alaska, so Canada might be as close as anything else I find. The dog I grew up with came from Canada, actually. What would you say are the very best breeders, tail docking aside?
     
  9. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    It's possible, if you find the right breeder, and can really sell yourself to them, you might be able to get them to leave a tail on a puppy for you. Problem being you'd have to pick the puppy at a few days old.

    A friend of mine did that with her Standard Poodle. She already had a dog from her chosen breeder, so an established relationship, she paid for the puppy and promised that she would take the puppy, whatever happened. Picked her out at 3 days old, and all the other pups in the litter were docked. She got a good dog.
     
  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    If Emily sees this her parents cocker seems like a fantastic dog and has it's tail.
     
  11. SevenSins

    SevenSins Guest

    So what happens when the puppy picked shortly after birth turns out to be one that wouldn't be a good fit for that particular home? Or turns out to be the one that the breeder would have wanted for themselves (after all, isn't that the entire purpose of breeding a litter, rather than simply to sell puppies)? That doesn't sound like something a responsible breeder would do, at all.
     
  12. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    English, though.
     
  13. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Oh... Bummer.
     
  14. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    In the case of my friend's Poodle, the breeder might have picked that pup for herself, she turned out fabulous. Had a very short, but relatively successful show career. With a tail. (got a point at her first show, and some kind of "best puppy" award at a regional specialty) Then my friend got bored with the show thing. The bitch is still intact, and may be bred.

    This is why you have to sell yourself for it to work, and whether it would work when you don't have an established relationship with the breeder, I don't know. My friend had already put a MACH on the Poodle she had from the breeder previously (her 2nd MACH Poodle), so the breeder was disposed to look upon her favorably. And as I said, she committed to taking the pup no matter what, and basically is the kind of home that any sane breeder would throw puppies at. Homes like that don't come along every day.
     
  15. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yeah, English field lines.

    And also, he actually has a long dock, 3/4 length, kind of like a Viszla. His breeder only bands off the tip of the tail - I assume because it gets beat up in thick cover.

    But ftr, yep, he's seriously pretty awesome. :D
     
  16. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    I was looking at a third.. Smudgie's breeder has vanished. She was having serious health issues.. I'd happily get another from her as she had dogs who hunted and won in the show ring. I have to admit I'm vain. I want drive in my performance pups but I want pretty..

    When Cider appeared in my life, she had WAY too much drive.. but now that I've done agility for some years.. I feel Smudge could use more. So I was looking into lines who were invited to the AKC agility invitational. Doesn't mean that their lines are the be all and end all, but it was a start.

    My top pick breeder apparently doesn't do Canadians though. More than enough titles on my two to prove myself.. Adored the amount of drive I saw in her dogs, and was waiting for a future litter with her younger b*tch I adored.. Told me on my original contact that she had more than enough friends to get her puppies if she ever bred her. Told her it was fine, but please I'd love to be in the loop.. no reply. Saw she was LOOKING for performance homes because she was thinking of breeding her.. Made contact again.. no reply. So now I have a rescued crested I didn't quite plan on..

    I found 4-5 breeders I was looking at hardcore.. but I wanted performance history, confo lines, temperament, health, and would like b and w parti if possible to boot.. Sadly the litter I really wanted in on would have been all of what I wanted. *pouts*

    I'm glad it worked for the poodle person. While a MACH would help, it might hinder as it to me would mean that person is looking for a pretty specific dog as a performance partner. Awfully hard to determine at 3 days of age.

    I'm with SevinSins though. I can't think of breeders I'd find reputable that would do that for a multitude of reasons. Even if you made friends with the breeder and prepaid for a puppy.. promising you'd take it no matter what sounds like a terrible idea as if it ends up being the wrong puppy that would be hellish. Or if the person backed out despite promises and payment.. what does one do with a puppy that doesn't meet the ideal breed standard?

    Due to that, many breeders would be less than thrilled to have their kennel name on a dog that is being 'made' less ideal. Mismark or not. Making it less to breed standard isn't what anyone I find to be a good breeder is working towards.
     
  17. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    It seems more and more Silky Terrier breeders are leaving tails, and are successful in the ring. But it's still VERY split. Lots of debates on the Silky FB group I'm on.

    I also prefer a tail, and finding the right Silky, along with the right breeder, with a tail seemed too difficult, so that's kind of why I strayed away from them.

    But yeah it's becoming more common. And there's a very reputable breeder who lets you pick a pup, ask for it undocked, and place a deposit on it at 3 days old.
     
  18. Sparrow

    Sparrow New Member

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    I'd settle for a docked dog before picking out a pup at three days old. When I'm ready for a pup, I want the breeder to choose based on our communication and third party Volhard testing, etc. I would like to see things go such that it isn't a big deal whether they are docked or not, so good breeders could go either way.

    I guess I'll just look into various breeders, finds the ones that suit me otherwise, and see where the world of tails is at if/when I decide it's time for a Cocker. I didn't think I'd go that route again, but I really miss being around their personalities.

    Thanks for all the input, everyone. :)
     
  19. GraceTW22

    GraceTW22 New Member

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    Cropping ears is not a requirement in the dane standard, but still done on the vast majority of show dogs, though most pets are left natural, particularly from BYB who would rather not incur the expense. However, the reasoning behind many breeders' choice to crop the entire litter is that if, god forbid, down the road the dog ends up in rescue, a cropped dane is much much more likely to be adopted than an uncropped one, and more likely to be identified as one who has a breeder out there looking for him or her to take him in. It's kind of an insurance policy. I assume docking tails would be even moreso an issue- since it's an actual disqualification and would require the selection of the puppy to be done at merely days old, before something that could come up that would make the pup less suitable. Yes, you COULD spend a lot of time and energy on it, but my recommendation here would be to select another breed where responsible breeders leave tails, since I can not imagine a responsible breeder intentionally sending a pup into the world with a disqualifying fault that, to the uneducated eye, immediately brands the dog as something less than the quality they have worked so hard to achieve in their lines.
     
  20. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    The tail dock isn't what makes the dog breed standard. If the dog is standard, it's standard, with or without the tail. The tail dock only makes the dog more fit what show judges are looking for, and the breed ring isn't the be-all end-all of dog quality. And of course, if a person thinks they might want to show (or do agility with) their dog in Europe, they have to leave the tail.

    To put it bluntly, as a breeder, if someone comes to me looking for a pup, which is going to be their 4th dog of the breed (2 or 3 other dogs of the breed having been owned within the family), with 2 of the previous 3 still living with them, and the other dog sadly deceased; MACHs on 2 of those 3 dogs, and the other dog titled, but retired from the sport because he didn't really like competition that much. A professional person with a more than comfortable income, who takes the dogs that can enjoy it to work with her, and has a retired husband at home to provide the rest of the care.
    I'm going to bend over backwards to get a pup into that home. Because you just don't find homes like that very easily. And sure, you want a pup for yourself from the litter, but all the other pups need good homes too.

    So if that makes a person an irresponsible breeder, then fine, the Poodle breeder is, and so am I, because I'd do the same thing. And if I thought my pup might not "fit" into the home, I'd really question my breeding program. There are always personality differences, but if a person has demonstrated the ability to live with and handle a variety of different dogs of a certain breed, then they should do fine with any dog of that breed with correct temperament.
     

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