Anti-Breeder Attitudes?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by CatStina, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    I'm just going to step out of this thread. Because to me, it is this sort of mindset that gives back yard breeders the fuel they need to make more dogs.

    You breed to better the breed. And you don't know if that's what you're doing without proving the dog worthy. That means temperament titles, health titles, and either show and/or working titles. To prove the dog excels at what it was meant to do.

    And just because you didn't find a breed of dog in your local shelter doesn't mean they don't exist in shelters... You can get a pet from a breeder without the breeder making a whole litter for that purpose... Holy geez. I am not saying that everyone who wants a pet should get it from a shelter.

    And this:

     
  2. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Or breeding for sport, or any other type of work is ok? Companionship IS a job just like any other job. There are specific traits, both behavioral and physical, that make good companion dogs.

    Comrade, you'll take your assigned puppy and you'll learn to love him! :p
     
  3. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    With unknown histories.

    Honestly, I'm a bit iffy on if my next strictly PET (who I'll inevitably at least do CGC and rally with) will be a rescue or not. Gavroche has loads of problems, some of which may or may not be genetic. He's also reactive. Yeah, some of his problems go with the breed in general, but if you get a good dog from a good breeder with health testing and stuff, you lessen the chances of having a money pit dog. It can still happen, sure! But again, stacking the deck.

    I don't see anything wrong with wanting a HEALTHY and temperamentally stable pet. If all pets were healthy and stable, then there would be a whole lot less pets in shelters.
     
  4. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    To me there is this focus on the ebil 'BYB'. We have this need to make all these arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with... anything.

    - Can't breed a mix. Breed a mutt= BYB/irresponsible.
    - Can't breed for pets. BYB
    - Can't breed more than 1-2 litters a year. BYB
    - Can't advertise. BYB
    - Must show or you're a BYB. or the opposite- If you show you're a bad breeder.
    - Oh man you have kennels... BYB
    - No waiting list? BYB
    -Untitled sire or dam? BYB

    I could keep going but you get it. BYB is the most useless term.

    Why not focus on the important things like... Breeding good dogs, being honest about your breeding program and your goals, and standing behind your puppies for their entire lives?

    For the record, my dogs are show bred and I do agility with them so they're not 'just pets', whatever that means. I know what *I* want in a breeder. I am very specific, especially for Nextdog. If my plans go right, Nextdog is going to be a very busy busy dog. ;) That doesn't mean one size fits all when it comes to breeders and who is being 'responsible'.
     
  5. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    And neither do I... But that seems to be getting lost in translation here. I don't see anything wrong with getting a pet from a breeder. But I do see something wrong with a breeder breeding a whole litter for something that comes out in show prospective litters anyways.
     
  6. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    There is a fundamental disagreement here on the value and need for purposefully bed companion dogs. Not show quality does not automatically equal good companions simply because they are called pet quality. Nor is every dog suited to be "just" a companion. If they were, why couldn't anyone have any breed? Since you can walk into a shelter full of pets and any dog is suitable, why can't you just open a book of breeds and any breed is suitable?

    I'm with Laurelin. The whole concept of what makes a BYB is wooly at best. Also, the definition of a companion dog is not simply, "a dog who lives with a person".
     
  7. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Imo BYB = 'I don't agree with you'
     
  8. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Who judges the companionability? That is something that is SO subjective, yeah, not a way to breed just for that....it looks different for every person. I do feel very strongly that there needs to be impartial judging and something more than just a good companion to make a dog breeding material.

    I LOVE my pet dogs with all my heart and wouldnt exchange them for the world but nope, not willing to be ok with someone who breeds their pets because they are good companions or they love them.

    I did not want a working or a show dog. I still went to a reputable breeder and got a WONDERFUL companion dog. They are not in short supply. Health tested, temperament tested, early puppy socialization etc. all done.
     
  9. Southpaw

    Southpaw orange iguanas.

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    It's not as easy as "all litters have pet quality dogs in them." Some breeders DON'T sell to pet homes. If we are only limited to sport/show/working breeders then I think it becomes more difficult for "pet people" to get a breeder puppy.

    Juno is from a "pet breeder." Her dogs get their CGC. Her dogs do therapy work. Her dogs dabble in agility and obedience. Some of them do conformation. They are health tested. For me, that's good enough. Aesthetics comes into play too. I do NOT like the look of most conformation bred boxers. And I also don't like the looks of poorly bred boxers. I like a sort of in-between I guess, and this breeder's dogs were it for me.
    And thus far she is way healthier than any other boxer I've met.
     
  10. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    That is part of what I defined in my definition of having a job. Obedience, therapy, agility, etc all count. They are out there working with other people, being tested in above average (for your typical pet) situations, etc. I would not consider that a pet breeder.
     
  11. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Who is saying that being "just a good companion" automatically makes a dog breeding material? Saying that producing good companions is a reasonable goal of a breeding program doesn't mean that someone thinks every nice dog is breeding material.
     
  12. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Okay, I've been trying to fgure out how to word this.

    I don't think dogs shuold be bed just because the dog that is being bred makes a good pet. If it's been health tested and titled (or even just health tested, stable temperament, and meets the breed standards), that could make it a good breeding candidate. But not every dog with a title and an OFA needs to be bred.

    Breeding for pets. Let's say you have two fantastic dogs. They would make excellent breeding dogs, perfect (or as near as possible) for their breed. You don't want a pup to keep back for breeding or showing at this time, and you don't have any working/show/breeding homes lined up. But you do have a long list of people who want pets - more than you could ever dream (nightmare?) of having in a litter. go ahead, breed the dogs. You have fantastic homes waiting for them. They're still show/breeding quality, they're just not going to show/breeding homes. I'm 100% fine with this. I mean, how is that ANY different than breeding an entire litter just to keep one pup for yourself because you want a show dog? Just because you're breeding for pets doesn't mean the dogs you produce are any lesser quality. They COULD be shown/bred/worked if that's what the consumer wanted, but in this case the consumer just wants a pet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  13. CatStina

    CatStina SBT Lover!!

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    Great post, Saeleofu.
     
  14. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I think I'm not explaining myself well. When I talk about breeding for companionship, I mean breeding dogs whose work is companionship, and who have working traits suitable for that job just like herders have traits that make them suitable for herding and retrievers have traits that make them suitable for retrieving. Not just breeding dogs who will be pets.

    Unfortunately the link is broken and my google-fu is weak, but this quote was from here originally.

    Whenever I've had this discussion/argument before, there seem to really be two camps... one that sees being a companion as true work that relies on specific traits just like the work that any other working breed performs, and one that sees companionship as an inherent feature of dogs. I fall into the former camp, and so I find it a valid purpose to breed for specifically.
     
  15. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I must admit the hardest thing about breeding for pets is the measuring stick.

    I can tell you Backup is a fantastic pet, best agility dog ever, and has the best health ever. Well, you can ask me to prove the agility and health. One is a test of biddability, drive, mental stamina, & focus. The other is both tested by continual training/ trials without breaking down and also certifications such as OFA, etc.

    However, how do I prove he is or is not a good and worthy pet? Is CGC adequate? Is a TT? Or is the sheer act of existing as a companion enough?
     
  16. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Definitely. I think that's what makes it so hard to wrap one's head around - there is no way to measure it objectively.

    For ME, I would want a dog being bred specifically to be a pet, nothing else, to have a CGC/CGN, pass an ATTS test with values mostly in the middle (with a few exceptions, I can't tell you what those exceptions are without looking at the test items), and maybe have some therapy work or something. And of course health tested, because who wants an unhealthy pet?
     
  17. thehoundgirl

    thehoundgirl Active Member

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    Adopting Dixie was a cr@pshoot. At 9 weeks. Unknown background, but guess what? She turned out perfect and everything I could want in a dog. Now, she is 3 years old. Her personality hasn't changed, she is still the same dog I adopted even though she isn't a puppy puppy any more. Full of personality, full of love, full of fun, will play fetch til the cows come home, and loud. She's just FUN! And most importantly she is very healthy. :) She didn't come with baggage like Rudy did but he's a great dog too. So is Buster even though he's quirky. :p

    But, I'm not sure I'd say a breeder dog is better than a rescue dog. I'm not saying a rescue dog is better than a breeder dog either. I'm just saying my personal dogs are great. :)
     
  18. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    You don't have to judge companion ability. Because you're right, a companion is different according to who you ask. Each breeder would have to decide what specific traits they are wanting to breed towards. Ie: Low shedding, energy level, size, drive level, independent? biddable? etc. I don't see it as much different than breeding any other temperament type.

    Summer's breeder shows but she also does therapy dog work with ALL of her dogs. I have yet to meet papillons with nicer temperaments.

    I am not talking about throwing two pets together because they're cute or because they love them. I think that is what is getting lost in translation. I'm talking about a breeder paying close attention to health (and with that good structure) and a good, stable temperament. Not 'hey Fido and Fifi are great, let's breed 'em!'

    I know what I want in a breeder. I want to do agility to the level where it is very important for me for the dog to have a good amount of drive and biddability. So I am looking at working breeders or sports breeders. It's the top check on the list of what I want to see in a breeder. But just because that is what I am looking for doesn't mean that is the only way to do things.

    I can think of a couple pet breeders that do health testing and keep great track of their puppies. Would I buy a dog from them? No, not what I'm looking for. But are they evil BYBs causing the dog overpopulation problem? No.

    Just because someone doesn't show doesn't mean they don't do all the other stuff.
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Paps are a companion breed. You can't define them by a specific job or task and yet I still see a very strong temperament type within the breed. There has to be some way to define that. They've been companions for hundreds of years and nothing else. And other breeds have been companions for a long time too. And paps and pugs and chis are all companions and yet all have distinct general temperaments. Same job but people were looking for something different.
     
  20. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    when *I* say someone is a byb, i mean theyre the sort of idiot who just goes "hey yur cute, lets breed you!". my qualifications for good/bad have nothing to do with the hard and fast and, ultimately, pointless set of rules i see thrown about. however health testing IS a mandatory one, and thats one i wont waver on. so is buyer support from the breeder. no "heres your puppy have a nice life". the lack of both of those things DOES scream bad breeder to me, regardless of whatever else they do or dont do
     

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