Another raw diet query (bones, additives, offal)

[Catsi]

I have recently switched my girl over to an exclusively raw diet (based on Barf).

She has always been given bones in her diet, but I decided to make the full switch.

I am feeding at the moment Barf patties (they come frozen), chicken wings, necks, sardines, and some little garnishes of egg and natural yoghurt on occasion.

I do want to start making my own patties, for now I am happy to buy premade. I am a little time poor right now and she is only a littly, so it is pretty cost effective. If I had a giant dog, I'd probably find myself less time poor though, so laziness does come into play. That and I don't want to stuff it up.

I use two sorts - the roo and the combination recipe... I can list the ingredients if need be.

My questions...

She won't eat liver, she will eat kidney. Is this a problem? If anyone has had this problem, did you figure out a way to prepare it so that they ate it. I only feed a little bit of offal once every fortnight, her barf patties contain liver and kidney already.

Other supplements, how much do I need or how often do I need to feed it. The barf patties contain kelp powder and ground flaxseed oil. The big one missing is fish oil. I feed sardines weekly. Do I still need supplements? Any others I've missed?

And my last query... bones? My girl LOVES her chicken wings and necks. But she doesn't like lamb flaps and will only occasionally eat the ox tail bones I offer (she is 5 kgs, so I don't offer big beef bones). I don't want to pander to her, but she just flat out refuses sometimes. What do I need to do to ensure she gets the right balance. She'll eat chicken bones everyday if I gave them, no problem. Ideally how often should she eat a beef bone?

Advice and suggestions much appreciated!

Edit the word is supplements, not additives!

 

[BabyDane]

If time is an issue or constraint, just feed whole animal parts like the chicken necks and wings like you have been, no prep work whatsoever. Unless you stick with the pre made raw patties.

If she will eat chicken, bone in everyday she is getting enough bone in her diet. Dogs don't need to eat bone in meats everyday to get enough. The "guideline" is 10% bone, 10% organ meat, and 80% muscle meat. This is just a guideline and so I see it as dogs should have mostly meat, some bone and some organ respectively.

If she doesn't eat what you offer her, don't feed her anything else. This will cause her to be a picky eater. Just take up what you offered to her and keep it around til the next feeding time. When the next time to feed her comes around offer it to her again and give her ~15 or so minutes to eat it. If she doesn't, repeat this until she chooses to eat it. Remember that she is choosing not to eat, you are not starving her. No dog will intentionally starve itself in the presence of food. Just be patient. If its just that she doesn't like a particular meat I wouldn't push it too hard. One of my dogs doesn't like turkey that much so I don't force her to eat it. Variety is important, but not so important that you have to force your dog to eat something they don't like. There are exceptions to this "rule" tho...organs.

A lot of dogs don't like to eat their organs...kinda like kids who wont eat their vegetables LOL. But liver and kidney, liver being the most essential of all the organs, are a necessary component to a well rounded and complete diet. Without liver, your dog will be missing out on essential nutrients. There are a couple of ways you can try and "trick" your dog to eat them. Searing them very lightly in some oil and garlic will entice some dogs to eat it, but you don't want to cook it all the way through because that destroys nutrients. You could also try feeding the organ meat frozen. Some of our dogs wont eat organ meat no matter how we prepare it so we have to resort to shoving it down their throats! Its really the easiest way for us to get them into their diet. Luckily organ meat is not a major component to the diet, but it is 100% necessary! We only feed one organ meal per week.

Good luck!

 

[Catsi]

Thank you!

I will try to lightly fry up some liver this week. I knew it was the most important offal to feed, so I was a bit concerned.

I do feed chicken bones nearly everday (I say nearly because we miss a day occasionally). I feed the raw patties every second day and then sardines once a week, offal once a week. Natural yoghurt is something I add on occasion as well. Mind you I don't feed a lot of one thing as she is only 5 kg. Right now she is a healthy weight, but she has always tended toward being a little under rather than overweight.

I will keep trying a beef bone every so often because I know she eats it eventually, she just doesn't savour it like chicken. Unfortunately, I don't think she has ever touched the lamb, even after reoffering it when she is hungry.

Also, in regards to offal... if you feed once a week do you feed liver say 3 times in a month and kidney once? How often exactly would be ideal to feed kidney? I would love to get my hands on (umm... actually maybe not literally lol) some green tripe... but unfortunately unless I have my own cows or know someone with their own cows... it's just not going to happen.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I do want to start making my own patties, for now I am happy to buy premade.

Don't waste your time making your own patties. The premaid patties are have a lot of inappropriate ingredients in them. Dogs need meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else. No fruits, veggies, nuts, grains or anything else that doesn't come from an animal. It's much better to feed whole animal parts such as chicken quarters, backs, drumsticks, breasts, thighs, pork ribs, necks, etc.

She won't eat liver, she will eat kidney. Is this a problem?

YEs, liver is important. There are a lot of tricks you can try to get her to eat them. I used to mix A LITTLE liver with some canned salmon. I mean a very small piece. Maybe the size of your thumb nail or smaller. Gradually increase the amount of liver. My dogs will now eat liver by itself without having to be hidden.

You can also sear it slightly. This doesn't mean "lightly fry up". It means drop the liver into a hot pan for maybe 10 seconds at the most. Once she eats that, sear it less and less until its not necessary.

I only feed a little bit of offal once every fortnight, her barf patties contain liver and kidney already.

Forget the barf patties. To me, they are little more than raw kibble. You can do a lot better with whole animal parts.

Other supplements, how much do I need or how often do I need to feed it.

Assuming you have a healthy dog, other than possibly some fish oil or salmon oil, no supplements are needed if you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals inclucing bones and organs.

I feed sardines weekly. Do I still need supplements? Any others I've missed?

If you feed sardines you don't need fish oil or any other supplements.

And my last query... bones? My girl LOVES her chicken wings and necks.

Chicken wings and necks are pretty small parts. Unless your dog is very small, these parts are too small for her. For the average size or larger dog, chicken quarters, backs, and breasts are more appropriate size.

But she doesn't like lamb flaps and will only occasionally eat the ox tail bones I offer (she is 5 kgs, so I don't offer big beef bones). I don't want to pander to her, but she just flat out refuses sometimes.

If there are one or two things she doesn't like, its no big deal. My dogs don't like turkey so I don't feed it. If she doesn't eat raw at all, you need to use some tough love techniques.

What do I need to do to ensure she gets the right balance.

Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. The diet is automatically balanced for you by nature.

She'll eat chicken bones everyday if I gave them, no problem. Ideally how often should she eat a beef bone?

If the only bones she gets are chicken bones, its not a problem. I never feed my dogs beef bones. They eat chicken bones, pork bones, deer bones, fish bones, and lamb bones. As long as she gets meat from a variety of animals, she will be great. :smile:

 

[Catsi]

Hi RawFedDogs,

Thanks for all that info, I now feel more comfortable in feeding raw. So barf patties are unecessary? I think I must be prescribing to different raw diet atm. It would be easier for me to feed exclusively meat, bones, offal, fish etc. Umm, I don't think it could get any easier than that!

By the way, I lightly seared some liver on Wednesday and she ate it. :yikes: Perfect. I also think the liver hidden in salmon would work too, if we wanted to try, she really likes her fish.

My only other question relates to what you say about bones, she is 4 kg (I said 5kg earlier, but she isn't). She is a Chi x, small dog but obviously not a tiny chi. She seems to take her time on the chicken wings, but is very fast on the necks. What other parts would you recommend? I am toying with the idea of some chicken carcasses halved (or even quartered) to add to her bone repertoire. I won't bother with other bones except for the occasional ox tail, she does like them usually and I might try some turkey. The rest can come from meat.

Thanks again, it has all been really helpful.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Barf is pretty much outdated at this point... and the creator of Barf kind of went off the deep end! LOL. I like "Give Your Dog a Bone", but his more recent books and endeavors are weird; like his insistence of grinding all bones.

Prey model is actually a much easier, more balanced way to go.

If you worry about supplements (like me) you can add some pre-made raw to the diet (I recommend Primal), use a dehydrated staple (like Honest Kitchen/Sojos) and/or a multi-vitamin supplement (I use Solid Gold vitamins). I actually *do* believe that feeding grocery quality meat, bone and offal is not a complete diet... as animals from slaughter houses do not have the same nutritional value of wild/free-range animals.

 

[Catsi]

Oh wow, I didn't realise his later stuff was so bizarre.... grinding up all bones! :yikes: I only have 'Give you dog a bone', I think that was an earlier publication.

I am actually preferring the idea of feeding prey model. It honestly sounds easier for me. But supplements are an issue for me as well. Do you use the premade raw and the dehydrated staple/multivitamin? Or can you use either/or? Best to mix it up over time?

I will have to further my research into prey model.

 

[ihartgonzo]

When I fed prey model, I gave a multivitamin and seameal, with (usually twice weekly) veggie meals that contain plenty of leafy greens, tomato, carrots and broccoli, kelp & tripe. I also added in salmon oil w/ vit e if I wasn't feeding any fish. IMO it's better to give lots of healthy supplements rather than not enough.

I feed pre-made as a staple at this point... with about 25-50% of their diet being fresh meat & RMBs. It's just way more convenient to feed pre-made in an apartment, but I'll probably be feeding prey model once I move again. I like it because pre-made is already pretty high in bone and has lots of nutritious veggies, so it's easy to just supplement it with muscle meats and RMBs. Dehydrated foods like The Honest Kitchen also have higher calcium, so that it's easy to add muscle meats and RMBs to each meal.

 

[puppydog]

If she doesn't eat what you offer her, don't feed her anything else. This will cause her to be a picky eater. Just take up what you offered to her and keep it around til the next feeding time. When the next time to feed her comes around offer it to her again and give her ~15 or so minutes to eat it. If she doesn't, repeat this until she chooses to eat it. Remember that she is choosing not to eat, you are not starving her. No dog will intentionally starve itself in the presence of food. Just be patient.

Please stop advising people who have small dogs to do this. It is dangerous.

 

[MisssAshby]

A lot of dogs don't like to eat their organs...kinda like kids who wont eat their vegetables LOL. But liver and kidney, liver being the most essential of all the organs, are a necessary component to a well rounded and complete diet. Without liver, your dog will be missing out on essential nutrients. There are a couple of ways you can try and "trick" your dog to eat them. Searing them very lightly in some oil and garlic will entice some dogs to eat it, but you don't want to cook it all the way through because that destroys nutrients. You could also try feeding the organ meat frozen. Some of our dogs wont eat organ meat no matter how we prepare it so we have to resort to shoving it down their throats! Its really the easiest way for us to get them into their diet. Luckily organ meat is not a major component to the diet, but it is 100% necessary! We only feed one organ meal per week.

Good luck!

As long as a dog is getting a well rounded diet then not feeding liver shouldn't be an issue. If one item is lacking something that the dog needs you simply feed it in a difference source so there is no need to force them to eat a certain type of organ meat IMO.

 

[phillo]

my roommate and i switched our very different dogs to the prey model raw diet a few months ago. the dogs both responded very well and turn their noses up at most cooked meats and won't go near processed treats/food.

i think the prey model diet is ridiculously easy and i have a 55lb dog and live in an apt in the city. i shop every couple of weeks, keep the animals varied and throw in some organs, i try not to over analyze what i'm doing. both our dogs are thriving on this diet and i wouldn't do it any differently though i do wish my dog would eat whole fish.