Aiyee! Please help, need experienced advice and opinions

[Romy]

We are fostering a really lovely wonderful staghound/lurcher, named Seamus. My husband and I had planned on adopting him when he goes up for adoption, but something happened last night and we need some advice to make the best decision for everyone.

Seamus shows signs of having been abused, somewhat. I don't think he was ever thrashed within an inch of his life, but he was afraid of brooms when he came to live with us, and got scared if we raised our hands. He has since mostly gotten over these fears. We have had him for two months, and he is 10 months old.

Twice before last night, I had put my hand on his lower back, very gently, and he whipped around and snapped at me. He didn't actually bite. He really has very good bite inhibition, and a very soft mouth when he plays. Last night someone opened the front door and he bolted, and almost made it out the door. I was standing next to the door and put my hand on his back to stop him (he was blurring past at sighthound speed, otherwise I would have grabbed his collar) I touched him right above his hips. I did not squeeze, grab, pull fur, push down, or otherwise try to restrain him, it was a gentle touch. He yelped and whirled around, then bit my hand several times, hard. He did not break the skin but I do have several bruises on my hand from the bites.

It is my impression, from his reaction and behavior in other situations, that it was definitely a fear bite. I think he was hit on the bottom/lower back when he was younger. My question is this:

How does one go about conditioning a behavior like that out of him?

Also, I am pregnant, due to have a baby in about 8 weeks. One of the things we love about Seamus is how gentle and loving he is with children and small animals. I don't think he would ever intentionally harm a child, but I am very scared that if a toddler snuck up on him and touched his back or tail he could seriously injure them. He is a tall dog, right at face height for most 2 year olds. Is there any possible way to condition him to the point where that behavior will not an issue any more? Or would it be better for him and children to not be in a situation where they live together?

We love Seamus very much, and we love our baby too. We don't want to put either of them in a situation where either will be hurt or forced into a position where they could hurt someone. Please help! Is this possible to work out? If not, since Seamus still legally belongs to the rescue we would just continue to foster him until they find him a childless home. Please help us! I feel very emotional about all this, the baby and Seamus, and don't want the emotions to cloud good decision making. My husband thinks we shouldn't give up on him, but I don't want to put our children in danger if this isn't workable. Also, he is acting like Seamus barely mouthed my hand, like when he plays and has said that "it wasn't a real bite." He did not witness the bite though.

 

[Zoom]

You could work on counter conditioning, but I don't think Seamus would be a good fit for a house with young children. A dog that bites multiple times is a liability to kids, even if he doesn't break the skin.

I would start by just petting him on his neck and chest area (assuming he's comfortable with that) and lulling him into a peaceful state. Then slowly start to work your way down his back and sides, using long gentle strokes. Watch him for any signs of fear or tensing up, notice where his "cutoff" is, keep a note of it and keep above that line for at least a week. Each day, just gently massage everywhere he will let you, working your way closer to his cutoff spot. Spend a day or two just stroking that area until he relaxes, then quit the session. Only move as far down his back as he is comfortable with at first, then as he gets used to you handling him while he's calm, work your way to full body strokes. Make this all very soothing.

After you are able to touch his lower back when he is drowsy and lying down, try the same thing when he's standing. As he is more ok with being touched there, increase the pressure to a "normal" level. Use lots of praise and maybe even consider clicker-training, but I think that starting off with easy massage will work as well.

Good luck and let us know!

 

[RD]

First of all, has he been to a vet to rule out any medical reason for this? If he has a hip problem and has been hit there before, there's a chance that he's expecting a lot of pain each time someone touches him there, even if it's a very light touch.

If he has a clean bill of health, I'd proceed with what Zoom suggested. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a highly reactive dog in a house with young kids.

 

[Romy]

The problem is that he isn't a highly reactive dog. 99% of the time he solicits butt rubs, back rubs, face rubs, if you are willing to touch a part of his body he wants you to rub it. Deep tissue rubs make him melt, even on his hips. He LOVES being brushed, anywhere and everywhere. Sometimes he brings the brushes to us to let us know he wants a "body massage". I also brush his teeth every day, and he loves that. He lets me put things in his mouth and take things out with no fussing whatsoever, just big smiles. He had terrible kennel cough when we got him, and to get him to take the meds I just opened his mouth and put them on his tongue, and he swallowed them no problem. Just big smiles and body wags because I had bothered touching him.

In the rare times that he isn't leaning on someone soliciting a rub, he reacts to any kind of touching by smiling and immediately leaning on the person touching him, and mooing like a cow. We have our little cousins over and he LOVES them, and is very gentle and good. The only behavior that worries us is the snap.

We have been fostering him 2 months and he has only snapped at me twice, the third time he actually bit me. Pretty much what happened was the touch, but it wasn't when he was soliciting. He was just standing.

Other than him standing and the spot he was touched on, I can't think of anything else that those situations had in common. The first was when he wouldn't crate up (he was leaning all over the house guests and breaking their knee caps with his tail of doom, so had to go in a 'calm down' time out). When I told him to crate up he stopped and froze, wouldn't budge at all so I led him in (gently) by the collar and when his front half was in he froze again, and wouldn't finish. I gently placed my hand on his lower back to urge him along and he snapped at me.

The second time we were just playing outside, and he snapped randomly when his lower back was touched from behind.

The third time he was running out the door, and you already know the story on that one.

I can't find any kind of consistency/pattern on the behavior, and that's a big reason I am concerned about how to train it out of him if it's behavioral. We can't demonstrate it to people, because it's kind of unpredictable when it might happen. His hips get touched thousands of times inbetween incidents without anything bad happening. He has never growled, ever, even before biting.

I am very concerned that he is in pain, and am trying to get the rescue to xray his hips. They are sending someone over today to look at him and decide what to do about his medical stuff. If his hips are already bad then I think we will have to let him go to a non-child family for certain, since I don't think that it would be fair to put him in a situation where little people will touch him where it hurts, and he might snap and hurt the little people.

Lastly, we use touch as a training reward. He is the most food un-motivated dog I have ever met, but a pat on the head and he is in heaven. We tend to ignore him when he solicits and then mainly use it as a reward, so he's gotten a lot of training since we've had him.

 

[Zoom]

RD added what I forgot. So it sounds like if he's relaxed he's cool with anything, but add in some tension and he develops a trigger spot. This may also relate back to being whomped when he wouldn't do something, if that is what happened to him. I've met some dogs that I could have sworn were abused because of bizarre issues they have (I'm not saying your guy wasn't, this is just additional info) but were raised from puppyhood by the same family who spoiled them totally rotten.

I'm out of my comfort zone on this one now...I'd ask Dr2Little what she would recommend, since it's such a come and go thing. But you have to keep in mind that this is a dog who now has a multiple bite bite history. Not saying give up on him, but that I don't see kids and this dog being a good idea together.

 

[Colin Pederson]

Hi Romy,
As I see it, you've got two options. Firstly, take Seamus to a canine behaviorist, STRAIGHT AWAY. You can't just go to any old dog trainer (some of them will tell you to 'overpower' Seamus using harsh corrections or corporal punishment). If I were you, I'd speak to my vet about recommended behaviorists in your area who specialize in aggressive behavior, and who will help you figure out an organized plan of attack in dealing with Seamus.
Biting a human is *very serious* behavior and it isn't something that you can deal with on your own - particularly as you've described the complications of Seamus' case, how he's quite unreliable with this aggressive behavior and could do it at any time. Whether it's fear-related or not isn't important; once a dog has bitten, the likelihood is high that he will do it again (as you've already seen).
Your second option is to refuse adoption of Seamus and get him out of your house pronto. I think this is the safest option for your household. Yes, it's sad for you and for Seamus, but you need to figure out your priorities - you've got a baby on the way and, with a large dog who's already demonstrated signs of extreme instability and aggression, it's just too dangerous to keep him around. I'd hate to think of the damage that Seamus could do to your baby in a split second.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you've only got eight weeks (give or take) until the new baby arrives - that's simply not enough time by half to get to the bottom of Seamus' behavior problems.

 

[Romy]

Thank you everybody. We are heartbroken about this, but we need to do what is best for everyone. Right after he bit me I wanted to call the rescue and tell them it was over and we couldn't foster him anymore, especially because of the baby, but my husband tried to convince me I was overreacting and we shouldn't give up on him because any secondhand dog will come to us with some kind of issues. Once the bruises showed up he started changing his mind though. It's upsetting, and I just wanted to get some outside opinions that weren't heavily flavored with emotion.

My husband believes that all dogs bite someone at some point, and need to be taught that it is wrong. I don't believe this is true, I know dozens of dogs who have never laid a tooth on a human being. If anybody wants to chime in and let him know that there are dogs out there who have never bitten anybody, please do! I think it is a big factor in him wanting to try and work with Seamus, since he believes any dog we get will have bitten or bite at some point.

Thank you all.

 

[Jynx]

I would definately rule out the physical side of things first,,in addition to hips, I would xray his spine...After that, I would most likely consider an acupuncurist or doggie therapist (physical) to check him out as well..

While this certainly may not be the case, my dogs have had different "things" go on with them, the vet sees/feels nothing, but I take the dog to my chiropracter and they find things that need to be "whacked" back into place..

what I'm saying is, don't discount the physical side of things , rule them out first..a chiropracter can do wonders for dogs..
good luckd
diane

 

[dogzrulez]

if the dog has been abused it is natural for him to be jumpy, insecure and suspicious of othes. the snapping and growling is just that. however, since he has now found a home and loving owners, he'll become normal in a few months. it'll take some time for him to become comfortable. but time is the issue with you. with ur baby coming, u don't want a snappy dog around. just be patient with him, play a lot and everytime he snaps scold him very sternly.

 

[Romy]

But he's not insecure, snappy, or suspicious of others. He's very friendly, outgoing, loving, and craves attention from everyone he meets.

His x-rays did get taken, and his hips look horrible! I don't even know how to read x-rays and it's very obvious something is wrong, they are completely asymetrical. Like a whole chunk of his hip bone was misplaced. With this bit of info, I think it will be best if he is placed in a home without children who might bump his tender hips and hurt him by accident. He would be a very ideal companion for an older couple or someone who has a physical disability that makes it impossible to walk a dog. He can barely go for half a block, and spends 23 hours a day laying on his fluffy bed. The vet said he did think that some of the deformity is congenital, but that it looks like a lot of damage was done through trauma. I am so sad that someone damaged my poor Seamus in this way. He didn't deserve it, no matter what he did as a little puppy. He is a very sweet dog.

No offense dogzrulez, but I am not going to trust scolding him sternly when he snaps or bites once every month or two to train him to be reliable around small children. Especially MY children. I've barfed for 9 months with this one.

 

[Jynx]

Romy, poor dog,,honestly you couldn't and I wouldn't correct him for his bad behavior, it's not his fault he has got to be in obvious pain. I think your idea of a home with an older/quiet/single person (couple) is what he needs to just to be able to live out his days in peace & comfort..

Good luck with him
diane

 

[squirtsmom]

Nothing to add, but I would not have him around my kids. good luck.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

That really sucks

((((hugs))))

~Tucker