Agility training

[BostonBanker]

Plus, my Vizsla running friend mentioned people who think non-herders are too dumb for agility are just too stupid to figure out how to train more difficult breeds (totally said in jest.. I love all you herder people!)

Meg and (hopefully) Gusto have absolutely made me a better, more patient trainer. I've always said that any dog I get after Meg had better thank her, because I'm 1000x better because of her. I do agree that people who haven't trained a extremely non-herder dog have no idea what it is like. The different training skills, the learning to adapt methods developed for Border Collies to work for your dog, the emotional turmoil that can be present (okay, maybe herders have to deal with that as well ). The whole sport and the training methods and nearly all of the top trainers are built around Border Collies and other herding breeds.

Having said that - I will quite likely go with a herder for my next dog. Maybe even a sport bred one. I'm so, so tired of having to work so hard to make my dogs want to play agility. I don't for an instant think herders are "easier", but I think the challenges are very different. I'm ready for different.

That's all 10 years down the line, of course. Because Meg is living forever.

 

[Laurelin]

I think it's good to experience different kinds of dogs. The best trainers are those that can adapt to any type of dog.

 

[Beanie]

If y'all think herding dogs are easy you can totally borrow Payton.
But the deal is you have to keep him for a full week. No backsies.

 

[BostonBanker]

If y'all think herding dogs are easy you can totally borrow Payton.

Like I said:

I don't for an instant think herders are "easier", but I think the challenges are very different.

I am ready for a dog who loves agility like I love agility. There is zero doubt in my mind that Meg enjoys trialling, and also that she does it for me. She won't run with anyone else. The equipment and the game hold zero reward for her. Playing with me (and, to be honest, probably the bag of Nutter Butters waiting at the out gate) are what is rewarding to her. Gusto's such a mess of ring stress right now, I'm not sure what to think. He definitely finds the game more rewarding than Meg, but I also think that if we never did agility again, he'd cheerfully sit on the sidelines and not feel that he's missing out on anything.

I'm excited to watch some friends who have had very similar training challenges as me raise their new border collies. I know we share a lot of the same desires in our dogs. I can't wait to see how they feel about the new adventure they are embarking on.

 

[Beanie]

I am ready for a dog who loves agility like I love agility.

In that case, you can borrow Pepper.

Auggie is always an option too, given that he would stress so much at trials he would actually start slowly walking around courses. Even tried to leave the ring a couple times.

Either or.


Maybe it's just because I have four who are all the same breed but I just don't think "herding breeds" are that different. I think dogs are different, period.

 

[Oko]

I can attest that after having Wesley, Feist feels like a little alien made of athleticism and wanting to do my bidding and magically just absorbing half her training. People who have only experienced intensely biddable, handler attentive, squishy athletic bendy dogs who would go all day if asked, really do not understand what most dogs are like. This is one thing I have really gleaned from the border collie boards, a lot of people there have only ever had border collies, and they have no idea that their dogs are not what is normal for 99% of dogs and are a helluva a lot easier in a lot of respects. Like, thinking all dogs have an intense inner desire to please you and all that jazz. Carry on.

Yvonne, I am astounded that someone that would say that over a silly dog sport (it's a GAME), but at the same time, it doesn't surprise me because there are plenty of petty jerks to cover all hobbies! It sounds like you have good support though and have shaken it off well.

 

[DJEtzel]

You do sometimes have to come up with non-conventional training methods for the non herders that just think a little differently about it all.

There's an afghan who has been taking classes with me for over a year now. He lost some drive, fell off a dog walk, and would not do the teeter any longer. A cpe judge and myself are currently teaching a "teeter and weaves" class. She took the teeter group for the first few weeks and I took the weaves. Last week we switched and I was working the teeter. Sailor was still walking 1/3 of the way up the teeter and just stopping. We'd have to lure him every time with sausage on the board. He was getting nowhere. Finally, he stepped onto the teeter and I pushed the opposite end down, causing him to move on the teeter and start moving up it. Did that twice and he was driving to the end with a target on the ground, instead of at the end of the teeter. Can't say I've ever thought I would need to do that with ANY breed... Leave it to an afghan!

 

[BostonBanker]

Thank heavens, my two haven't left the ring on me yet. I'm actually shocked Gusto hasn't. Meg, even in her worst stress, has always leaned on me, so leaving me was never a big concern.

Obviously all breeds run the full spectrum, and I used to be a pretty staunch advocate that all dogs can learn to love agility and be successful. And maybe they can. But I've talked to so very many people over the last year or two, both in moments of completely stressed out breakdowns and during very rational moments. And so very many of them had been where I am, and had the same thoughts I have had. I've seen them work with their old dogs and their new dogs. They've explained their struggles and the things that led them to make the decisions they've made regarding their newer dogs.

And I've sat around more than I should admit and thought "maybe it's me, and maybe I'll just eff up any dog I get, even if I get some BC bred to the nines to do agility". And maybe I will. But I also firmly believe at this point that I can stack the odds in my favor by getting a dog whose genetics say that it is likely to have drive for sports. And hopefully I'm aligning myself with the right trainers now, so if that dog ever does come into my life, I won't make the same mistakes I've made with my current dogs (I have no doubt I will find all kinds of other mistakes).

I think dogs are different. But there are behaviors around which agility is built, and there are breeds who are more likely to have those behaviors 'on the tip of their tongue'. Sure, it isn't going to be every dog of those breeds, just like some border collies fail at herding and some goldens won't fetch so much as a stick. But there's a reason we see more herding dogs than any other type doing agility. And as much as I used to try to pass it off as competitor bias...I'm pretty sure that isn't all that it is.

But definitely send me Auggie for a bit Not for agility, but just because I have a wee internet crush on him.

 

[BostonBanker]

You do sometimes have to come up with non-conventional training methods for the non herders that just think a little differently about it all.

I've probably told the story before, but we used to have a big issue where we trained years ago with these giant groundhogs hanging out right outside the ring during class. Meg, my lovely hunting dog, could not even begin to focus; all she wanted to do was run the fenceline screaming at the groundhogs.

We finally got her working by asking for one obstacle, then releasing her to go run the fence. Go figure, Premack actually works. She was able to do sequences by the end of that class!

 

[Beanie]

Thank heavens, my two haven't left the ring on me yet.

It was the only time I've ever pulled Auggie from a ring. He tried to leave the first class and I didn't realize what was going on. The second class I realized what was happening and I obliged and we left.
One of the worst times I've ever had playing agility. Because of course we want our dogs to enjoy playing the game as much as we do. And it was Auggie saying he didn't want to play, he didn't want to play so much he was prepared to turn around and walk away from me to leave.


I don't actually believe all dogs can learn to love agility. It would be like suggesting all people can learn to love distance running. Okay, perhaps from a purely "psychology of learning" perspective, I can theorize that it's scientifically possible. But I don't see the point in it... life is too short, and God knows a dog's life is far shorter than ours.

I absolutely believe in stacking the deck, of course I do since I got Payton from the same lines that produced so many great dogs. I wanted Georgia's blood in my next dog so much that I was willing to take the gamble of another Pepper; willing to roll the dice that I would end up with a Quigley instead of Auggie, a dog who has two MACHs and is currently sitting on a bank of enough speed points for another FIVE.

But I don't think it has to be "agility breeds" versus "non-agility breeds" and I really hate that the sport has become so much about that. How can it not when you have internationally recognized handlers/trainers telling people things like "if you want to be serious in this sport you better get a border collie." I cannot believe how catty this sport has become, with people sitting outside the ring saying nasty things about the dogs in the ring, people confronting complete strangers and telling them stuff like "your dog hates agility and you should quit." And drawing lines in the sand automatically delineating dogs as capable or not based on their breed just doesn't help any of it.



And to be honest it really does make me frustrated with all the trouble I am having with Payton, with how often I feel like I am beating my head against the wall, with how many runs end with me going to the car to sit there by myself and cry YET AGAIN, that people honestly think the "secret" to success is "just get a herding breed!"
I suppose after all these years and all the work I put into him, if we finally ever DO get there, it won't matter, because, you know, he's a herding breed so it doesn't even count, because he came out of the womb with a MACH ribbon pinned to his chest.

But I wanted a greyhound. End of story.

:hail:

 

[Laurelin]

Exactly Beanie. I have watched so many dogs wash out of various breeds. A lot have been BCs or Belgians. Even sport bred ones.

I really think you should get a dog you like first and foremost and agility should be a part of that. But not all of it. I love the game and I get the desire to really play. I've caugh myself overanalyzing Hank and thinking if he was the right choice or not. Every time he's not 100% into it I wonder if he'll have the drive. But really... He's a baby and its just a game at the end of the day.

But they're animals. There is no guarantee.

The best agility dog I know currently is a chihuahua. A teeny teeny one too. I see BCs that are not that good or are slow. Same with Shelties. I mean yeah a lot do well. A lot also knock bars or are maniacs or have jumping probelms. There's also just the fact that there are people actively breeding BCs and Shelties just for agility at a super high level and nohing else. I'm not so sure that's a good thing for the breeds. Especially BCs. There's some really sketchy sports breeders out there.

I love both breeds and will probably have them in the future. But I hate how it is us vs them. I don't ever want agility to be the only reason I have my dogs either.

 

[Shai]

Best dog is the one you own. Or the four you own.

Hokey but true.

I have more fun channeling drive than building it, but all that time spent building drive and working through quirks, etc., earned me the tools to know what to do with all that drive and try once I had it. Dealing with lameness issues drove home the importance of having dogs whose bodies can cash the checks all that heart write. And the challenges that come with all that hyperbiddability and workaholicism and eagerness make me appreciate how amenable and forgiving the older dogs are and have been, and their patience in teaching me.

And all the above makes me appreciate how lucky I am to be able to have four amazing dogs at one time and give them all good lives.

I agree with BostonBanker's statement that all dogs have their challenges...and their strengths. Hopefully the dog you bring home mostly aligns with the types of challenges you thrive on and the types of strengths you need. If that means a breed everyone else has, fine. If that means a breed no one else has, fine. And almost no dog is perfect on day one...

It's not easy, but if you let others' opinions and expectations (real or imagined) color your own definition of success for you and your team, you will always fall short.

/twocentspeech

 

[krissy]

Ahhhh! There is hope! We had SUCH a great class tonight. First time indoors in a new arena, and totally new group of people and dogs since we normally attend Wednesday night class but did Thursday night instead this week because of my schedule.

I went into class knowing that first and foremost I was working on focus and if that meant not getting through any actual agility, then so be it. Any time she left work she went back to her crate. Any time she made a good decision to keep working, big party and happy times. She won herself a crate time out pretty quickly the first few tries and then realized what was happening. By the end of class she was running the whole course with me. Fast, happy, drivey, and focused. So happy.

Hopefully she can keep this up for her trial on Sunday!

 

[Beanie]

Today I set up Payton's speed circle of death again... the dog walk to a jump to weave poles to a jump. About a month or so ago, I set it up and he nailed the weaves but blew the dog walk contact. The speed and excitement of the speed circle is as close as I can come in practice to stimulating a trial environment (as noted by the rare blown practice contact.)

Well, today he nailed it not once but TWICE. I did not try it again after that - actually in the program I got the idea from you're only supposed to do it once, so two was probably pushing it. But he really dug it and I'm sure he dug how excited and happy I was when I released him too.

Slowly slowly slowly chipping away at things, I think. My co-worker asked me if I was excited about our upcoming trial and I said no. First of all, I've been doing this for seven years... so I don't really get excited about trialing anymore, really, except for the big show down in Louisville really. But it's really hard to be excited when it's all just really expensive practice and very slowly whittling away at training issues rather than, you know, racking up Qs and advancing on titles.

I am almost glad for the season to be over so I can take a step back and just work on some other foundation stuff rather than so much on his attention to detail. Our jump work has gone a little by the wayside and I really need to get back to that, improving things like his willingness to jump into me while keeping the bar up. I need the break to brush up everything and hopefully next year we can come back out with the total package. I just hope I can get out of Open before this year is over... ughhhhh.


Georgie is still a work in progress for other reasons. I don't know how much I'm going to get that taken care of when Payton has so much of my focus and she's not mine. Her weaves were lovely today, at least.

 

[sassafras]

TIL that one advantage to playing with a big dog is I can hip check him back into the weaves if he starts to pop out or skip one (at least on my side).

 

[Oko]

Bought a plank, need to paint it with sand for traction, and then we can begin the insanity that is running contacts! My dog is 14 months old in a week, whaaaat. Weaving and contacts can happen? Insanity. I think they'll work well for us, she doesn't have much natural 'up' and likes to run low.

 

[krissy]

Trial today! Goal is just to be focused, fast, and have fun. We have an FEO standard to start us out. Then a standard (which I'll probably just treat as an FEO unless she was amazing in the first run). Then Jumpers which we are totally going for unless she was really stressy and distracted the previous times. I'm not playing to her distraction either. She leaves me, she wins her "not scary but definitely unwanted prize" (as Tracy Sklenar says) of going right back to her crate. Last class was amazing... so hoping we can have a successful day! Gotta go exercise her now before we leave!

 

[Julee]

Trial today! Goal is just to be focused, fast, and have fun. We have an FEO standard to start us out. Then a standard (which I'll probably just treat as an FEO unless she was amazing in the first run). Then Jumpers which we are totally going for unless she was really stressy and distracted the previous times. I'm not playing to her distraction either. She leaves me, she wins her "not scary but definitely unwanted prize" (as Tracy Sklenar says) of going right back to her crate. Last class was amazing... so hoping we can have a successful day! Gotta go exercise her now before we leave!

Good luck!

 

[MandyPug]

Trial today! Goal is just to be focused, fast, and have fun. We have an FEO standard to start us out. Then a standard (which I'll probably just treat as an FEO unless she was amazing in the first run). Then Jumpers which we are totally going for unless she was really stressy and distracted the previous times. I'm not playing to her distraction either. She leaves me, she wins her "not scary but definitely unwanted prize" (as Tracy Sklenar says) of going right back to her crate. Last class was amazing... so hoping we can have a successful day! Gotta go exercise her now before we leave!

I wanna see a picture of your bad pants

Yeah I know what trial you're going to haha. A friend and I are planning on coming up for the December DAL trial.

 

[xpaeanx]

Trial today! Goal is just to be focused, fast, and have fun. We have an FEO standard to start us out. Then a standard (which I'll probably just treat as an FEO unless she was amazing in the first run). Then Jumpers which we are totally going for unless she was really stressy and distracted the previous times. I'm not playing to her distraction either. She leaves me, she wins her "not scary but definitely unwanted prize" (as Tracy Sklenar says) of going right back to her crate. Last class was amazing... so hoping we can have a successful day! Gotta go exercise her now before we leave!

Good luck!


I did a focus class yesterday on the teeter. It was glorious. By the end all he wanted to do was run full bore to the teeter. I think he actually likes that it moves. Crazy dog.