Aggressive or is it me?

[Xanaris]

Hi, I'm the new kid on the block

I own a Labrador mix (mother = yellow Lab, father = ??) named Hazel who is currently 2 years old (b-day was on 15 of September. Born in 2004). She's nice and all, typical Lab but so much like me it's frightening. She's sweet, willing to give her attention if she knows there's food, extremely stubborn, easily distracted and has a mind of her own. And she's a real kitty when it comes to big trucks, pickups and thunder storms.

Enter the problem. I've read the internet, countless sites with different opinions and am as confused as anything. I thought maybe some forum discussions will help me. Pardon the long post.

I can't tell if she's aggressive but whenever she sees a Rhodie and a Kelpieish mutt living at the end lot, she goes berserk. Hackles raised, growling, tail up and wagging furiously. She becomes tense and lunges. If she sees another dog (take the MS living near my house) she will lunge but I can anticipate it and tell her 'Leave It'. Once she was getting better when I made her sit in front of the tiny dog that was barking it's head off with it's interested owner watching. I made her heel, sit, down, stay and she ignored the barking dog. I tried that with a lot of other dogs. Normally she just looks at them and whines but after a 'No, Leave It', she turns her head, looks at me and wags her tail while smiling. I praise her and give her a treat. I did the sit routine in front of a Rottweiler she used to have issues with but now she ignores him.

But recently my school got turned to the afternoon so I come back really late and am unable to walk her. But after exams the school hours shorten anyway so now isn't a problem. She seemed to forget all her training (we've been to a training school using choke collars. Eh, she behaved around those dogs but only because the trainer had a scary deep growling voice and she saw him as the Alpha of Alphas. Note : I am the pack leader, she knows that. She lets me take her food bowl while she's eating and will sit and wait until I tell her to Get It. She listens to my commands) and now she can't even Heel right so I'm getting her a prong collar tomorrow. I've done my homework and I know how to use it to make her Heel. Only problem is, I am confused on how to solve this aggression problem.

Is it me? Because around passing dogs I tend to tense up. I read that by doing so will make her also tense up and know that something bad is approaching to make me afraid or so. She instantly will point the blame at the dog and fly into a rage. I'm not a very big or heavy person even though I've grown stronger thanks to those lunges after numerous cuts, scrapes and grazes. She also gets irked by stray dogs running around minding their own business. Things get annoying when one decides to intrude on our walk and sniff her. She's got a phobia about dogs approaching her rear, a Golden Retriever tried to hump her at a dog event last year. She slipped her buckle collar and ran for dear life. I was advised to use a choke collar (I brought it but seemed to misplace it ).

Back to the problem, but when I pass (or try to pass) the house with the Rhodie, I don't do anything. I can hang her leash at my gate and relax and she can catch sight of the dogs looking at her and still go nuts. I guess the Rhodie has some dominance issues, my dog is a dominance freak. Any dog that comes near the house is barked at with warning hackle raises.

Now, I said I was getting a prong. Someone from my local forum (M'sian forum. I've got a bad experience there) said that she jerks the leash hard with the prong collar on. The dog is a Bullmastiff. I find that a bit harsh and since I read that the prongs pinching the skin can have a counter effect. Instead of the mother dog throwing the puppy into submission, the dog thinks it's opponent or the other dog is sinking it's fangs into his neck. The dog gets irked and the problem escalates.

About socializing, she did get some fun in at the training and at the dog show she plays with my friend's Toy Poodle mix which does get annoyed after a while and gives a warning snap. But they get along... then there was a dog that managed to tolerate her but Hazel quickly showed him who was the boss. Funny though that when dogs run pass our gate, she barks with hackles up. But if a dog happens to wander at the gate (if it isn't deterred by her barking), she gets all friendly. Sometimes a dog manages to get into the house compound like one big black GSD. She gets scared. Not the same with the Rhodie. She goes into angry mode. Once she dragged me across the street and growled at the Rhodie. The owner came out and told me to be careful. I was a bit annoyed but I'm not sure if it was my fault and I should listen to the owner. I wanted to err... say something that wasn't needed.

And that brings this long post to a close. The actual thing I want to ask is :

What can I do to stop her leash aggression? And can I use a prong collar to aid me? I was thinking of reinforcing her Leave Its so she will ignore the dogs. There are times when she does though. That was when I was using the choker (the trainer showed me how to use it correctly. Doesn't mean I like using it or used it properly, sad to say). She would Heel, see dogs, hear Leave It, ignore, fly into rage, get a correction with a growled 'NO. Leave IT!' then she will obey. But she doesn't store that in her brain .

Other than this problem, she's a fine dog. Will post about some shedding problem later.

Thanks for all the help,
Xan (by the way, I'm a girl. 'Tis just my WoW and internet screenname).

 

[cindr]

Well It sounds like you have a wonderful dog, and that you have been doing your best with her. What I see that is happening is this:

1) Puppy does not like the dog down the street; Fair to assume!
2) You cringe and tighten up, because of her reaction to the dog down the street.

So what you need to do in this situation, is this:

1) When you get down the street and she reacts to the dog, take a quick right turn, with a slight check and release then start heading the other way and say No LOOSE IT! Go a few steps down the street and head back to the situation.

If she attempts to do it again then you repeat the above. Now with in time she is going to realise that this is a bad behavior and it is not at anytime allowed, Once she gets the grasp of what you want from her reward her. Good dog Good dog, You do not need food all the time to reward the dog, it can be just about anything;

So another thing, once you get her to understand that is not allowed have her sit about 4 feet away from the situation, and just pet her up good dog. This should work for you. There are others out on this forum that have great ideas as well. So good luck.

 

[mrose_s]

buster has pretty much exactley the same problem. i have been working on his problem for 2 years and only now am i begining to see results. he hates other dogs with a passion (unless they come int eh yard then he likes them) andhe lives with 3 other dogs.

since he started getting easier to handle. i can tense less when i am approaching other dogs. i fins this helps him as he doesn't freak out. so just try to relax around other dogs.

i wouldn't try a prong collar. unless your dog is already very obediant all the time i wouldn't use it. i use a choke chain with buster but i would rath not. mym mum tells me i have to. which i think is stupid because i'm not certain of how to use it properly and he pulls too much but it does work wonders when i have time to use it correctly and only slightyl correct his healing.

you can't really blame her for acting agressivley towards dogs taht are already lunging through their fence. with buster i have to walk upt he middle of our street past 3 houses (both side of road) with agressive dogs. i just walk slowly and keep talkignt o buster. mention his name frequently so i can try to kee his attention

 

[kalija]

Have you ever used a clicker? I have had the same problems with my two dogs, and after a lot of frustration and struggle I am finally getting some progress with a clicker. For example, my GSD is much the same as your dog, except she reacts that way with EVERY dog she meets on the street. She barks and lunges at any dog she sees who is being walked on leash while she is on leash. If a dog is outside in a yard she will usually ignore it. We also have an 8 month old pup and unfortunately she is teaching him the same behavior. I recently got the book Click To Calm, by Emma Parsons, and it outlines step by step how to solve some problems with a clicker. One of the things is to teach a dog to "target" on something, it kind of gives them something else to focus on. I taught my dogs to target on my hand, that is, when I say Target, they touch my hand with their nose, they get a click and a treat for doing that. So what I've been doing is when I see another dog approaching, I ask Dutchie to Target, well before she starts to react to the other dog, and I keep doing that untill we are past it. It has been a long road, but I am seeing progress. The first few times I could only hold her attention untill the dog was close, then she would lose focus on me. But it gets better and better each time. One of the things I have learned is that a prong collar doesn't work well with some dogs, because the dog may associate the pain from the prongs with the other dog, which just increases their anger toward the other dog. Unfortunately I made the mistake of using a prong in the past, since she is a big girl, so I have probably been reinforcing the unwanted behavioir for years. So I have a lot to undo. I have just ordered an easy walk harness to try instead, it is supposed to accomplish the same thing, without pain. Haven't gotton it yet, so I will see. My goal is to be able to walk them without any aides like that but I need to work on this behavior fist. The clicker works great for them though, they learned the target command in just a couple of lessons, although it is taking longer to reinforce it so they work through the distration of another dog being close. If you are interested in it, there are a lot of internet sites with a ton of good info on how to start.

 

[moxiegrl]

Before getting a prong collar...why dont you try a gentle leader? These work really good for dogs that pull, and w/out the pain.

 

[Xanaris]

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Was caught up trying to find a site that would ship a Herm Sprenger prong to Malaysia (trust me, it's hard!). Finally found one yesterday, ordering it soon. It should arrive in a few weeks and I've been doing my homework on how to fit it and use it so that I'm ready. I'm determined to train my dog up.

But I've got one lingering question that I've not been able to find the answer to. Seasoned prong users, please advise!

Cindr : I've been doing something like that except it doesn't seem to work for those two terrors near my house. Still I appreciate the ideas! She's been a good dog around other dogs lunging at the fences, she just looks at them and whines but one good thing came out of the choke collar training class last year. I learnt to anticipate the lunging and can tell her 'Leave it!' in time.

mrose_s : I'm still going ahead with the prong. I've got not much to lose and a lot to gain if it works.

kalija : Yes! It did cross my mind to try a clicker. I've gained one from my friend who used it to train her GR (who is stubborn and playful so I'm considering letting her borrow the prong). But Hazel is afraid of the sound >>. I'll wait for the prong to come. I find I prefer using my voice and positive reinforcements like treats to train my dog. And Hazel does know the 'target' command, I use 'Touch it' instead but it does the same thing. I think I'm going to do what Cindr suggested. It seems to work. I'm worried about the association with the pain and the other dog but when I used the choker (bad idea really) to correct her when she lunged, she seems to understand and calms down. I shower her with praise but the dogs really irk her. But I am glad I know who to contact should I want to pursue the clicker training.

moxiegrl : Eh. Hard to say about the GL. I've researched it and I still stick to the prong collar. I'm afraid if she manages to lunge, the halter will jerk her head backwards and twist her neck, causing her injury.


I mentioned a question. Here goes... it's for clicker too :

When I get the Prong collar, I was wondering when do I praise her when Heeling?

1) Make her sit at the left side (Heel position) and say 'Hazel, Heel' then start to walk. Stop after a few paces, make her sit (well she knows to sit automatically anyway) and then praise her for HEELING. Might confuse her. But I used it in the training classes.

2) Make her sit at the left side and say 'Hazel, Heel' then start to walk. Occasionally praise her for Heeling ('Good girl Hazel' or 'Good Heel!' also confused). A bit troublesome.

Oh yes, another question. What do you guys think of using the clicker, not as a marker but a command of some sort. So if she hears the clicker then it's like a 'Watch me' command. Instead of asking her to 'Watch me', I click and she turns her attention to me. It sounded like a good idea but she's having trouble learning it. Not to mention she's frightened of the clicker sound. But it's loud and useful in a place like a dog event.

I've got yet another question but it seems to have slipped my mind.

Thanks for all the help,
Xan =).

 

[dr2little]

Is there any way that you'd rethink the prong for this issue.
It really isn't your best bet.

Also, try putting the clicker in your pocket to muffle the sound and be sure to pay quickly and enthusiastically after each muffled click.

 

[Zoom]

I have used prongs before, so I do know how to use them and when an appropriate time would be. However, given what you've told us about your dogs actions and temperments, I feel that a prong may not be your best bet. As far as getting a collar your dog cannot back out of, look for a martingale. They come with either a chain linkage or another nylon loop where the chain is in the picture (my dog has one of the all-nylon ones)

I'm guessing that your dog may have been attacked at some point in her life before you got her, hence her reactions towards certain dogs. Using a prong in this case would only reinforce that feeling...I had been advised with my Rottie mix (who started out her training with a prong because of her insane pulling) that when ever she started reacting (she's very on-leash dog reactive) that I was to correct the living hell out of her. That didn't so much work as start to make the problem worse, because now she was starting to associate other dogs with sudden pain. So, we ditched the prong and worked on refocusing her attention. Now, after a year of solid work and many suggestions from different trainers, she will listen to a "Sit, Leave It" and only woof at the dog as they walk past instead of barking furiously and straining on her lead. She's only 35 pounds, but it still freaks out most people.

For heeling, I would get the dog in the right position, take a few steps and praise/treat WHILE MOVING...I think we had another member who started to train heel by stopping and treating after every few steps and they ran into a different problem. Talk to your dog constantly so that she knows she's in the right place. If she moves ahead of you so that she can no longer see your knee out of the corner of her eye, do an immediate right turn and repeat your "Heel" command.

If you do want to go ahead with some sort of prong-type collar, I would check around for a Good Dog collar...similar to a prong in general shape and function, but I'm told that it's better for soft dogs (which it sounds like your dog is a soft dog) because it's not as intense of a sensation. I seriously think that using a full-prong isn't the best course of action. And as always, when using any sort of training collar, have it connected to the dogs regular collar...sometimes prongs have a nasty habit of popping apart at the wrong time and suddenly you have a loose dog on your hands.

Good luck!

 

[Doberluv]

My Dobe had this problem. It's not always aggression. Sometimes it's leash frustration. And it comes out looking like that. But it's hard to tell.

I implimented a desensatizing program where I practiced in places where my dog could see other dogs, but not up close. BEFORE the dog alerts, gets all tense, I'd get his attention on me. He's seen the dog, but he hasn't lost his ability to "watch me." While he's watching me, he gets c/t. As I gradually practiced a little closer to dogs and they were walking toward us, I'd get his attention on me and get a sit. Then right away, as the dog passed, he'd get rewarded. Then I turned and walked behind the other dog...same direction, not head on. That relieved most of his tension. And I'd continue rewarding him every few steps. I don't like the idea, if it's not absolutely necessary to keep youself from being dragged, of using a prong or choke collar. I don't think it's advisable to make discomfort or punishment associated with the other dog. That can stir your dog up all the more when he sees another dog.

If you go to a Petsmart parking lot or outside of a dog park where you're a some distance from dogs, but where your dog can still see other dogs, you can get his attention on you much better and he can succeed and get reinforced much more. Lots of reinforcement for success is absolutely necessary for him to learn.

I realize that it's very difficult sometimes because you have to walk and there may be dogs in closer proximatey. I know, I had to when I was visiting in Seattle. And this was really the only place I could practice (3 or 4 times a year for maybe a week or two each) because where I live, we just don't run into other dogs very much. So, he isn't perfect, but he has made vast improvement.

My dog is great in a class situation, absolutely perfect. But on a casual walk, I still need to be careful and get his attention on me ahead of time and use "leave it" as my cue to him that he needs to not make a big deal out of the other dog.

With Lyric, sometimes he acts aggressive, but if I stop to talk to the person, many, many times, it turns out he just wants to play and his rear goes up and he starts pouncing and wagging. This is even with male dogs. LOL. We met a seizure therapy dog when visiting in Seattle on Alki and the guy wanted to talk and see Lyric so I stopped and low and behold, his male Lab mix and Lyric became fast friends. They got to play together. He also met a little Poodle/Bishon mix whom he plays with everytime I go there on the beach down the way in front of their house. She's so cute and is a little firecracker...let's Lyric know the rules. LOL.

But don't count on it. It would be terrible if your dog decided to bite another dog. They just don't like all dogs and they can learn that they don't get to visit with every single dog they see.