Aggression...

[casablanca1]

I've been babysitting my sister's Yorkie lately, and handling him's like taking Hannibal Lecter for a walk. He got his leash stuck under his leg and I couldn't touch him to untangle it. It's very strange, handling a dog like that. Anyone else have a dog or know a dog who's being maintained vs. being rehabbed or trained? My sister did try for several years, but never found a good trainer and she got tired of being threatened by them - do it our way or he'll be put to sleep. So now she basically treats him like her beloved pet who might at any moment rip her face off. The only saving grace is, of course, that he's only 12lbs.

Just curious. We always talk about aggression as a problem to be resolved, less about aggression as an ongoing behavior that people are trying to deal with when, for whatever reason, they're unable to change it.

 

[elegy]

i couldn't live with that. i just flat out couldn't. which is why i put homer down.

if i couldn't bear to put the dog down, i'd be taking him to a veterinary behaviorist. not a trainer. a behaviorist. a board-certified one. their veterinarian should be able to refer them.

i think it's absurd to live with a dog like that, but maybe that's just me.

 

[ToscasMom]

I agree with elegy. There is NO way I would live with a dog like that. Even if he's small he can do a lot of damage. How the heck did he get that way to begin with?

 

[Julie]

My situation is totally different, but thought I would add it anyway....
Shiloh is dog aggressive.... she has always been fine with Charlie and other male dogs, but she does have a problem with female, spayed, neutered male dogs.... We have never been able to "correct" the problem, and now we just keep her seperated from Rocket or any other possible victims.
She gives no warning and attacks at the neck with a death grip.....this started when she turned about two... I am glad to say this doesn't include ANY human aggression....so we just deal with it..... She is such a sweet lovable dog to any person, but add any dog other than an intact male and she cannot be trusted. It really puts a bind on our life but she is 6 years old now, and she will always have a home with us (hubby's decision...she is really his dog).......
I could never put up with aggression towards humans...... but for some reason, I have been able to control her environment and her contact with at risk dogs.... and it is going okay.....
But I still do not have enough room in my life for a dog that is aggressive towards people.......I know some people can deal with that, but with my family and household, I couldn't deal with it....

 

[~Jessie~]

I agree with Elegy. I wouldn't be able to tolerate a dog like that. I would seek help through a certified behaviorist as well... which should have been done a long time ago.

 

[ravennr]

The trainers she's seen obviously were not good if they had that type of mentality. Try seeking out those who have had experience with this, and as Jessie said, a behaviourist wouldn't be a bad idea either.

If he's a rescue, his previous owners may have abused him. I had a stray that was terrified of leashes, and to be fair, he has marks on his back where he was hit, apparently with a chain. He was terrified, and became aggressive, whenever we came near him with a leash, especially a chain leash, no matter how light it was.

 

[RD]

I "mainained" Ripleys aggression for a year before I snapped and decided that I WAS going to work him out of it. No "but what if he doesn't respond". It's behavior, it can be modified. ALL behavior can be modified. He's been a good dog for over a year now, it took a long time to get through to him but I think a lot of that was my inexperience. Ripley is still, and probably always will be, very reactive in certain situations but I don't have to worry about him going apeshit nuts anymore. He still gets snarly, but that's as far as it goes now.

I couldn't live with an aggressive dog again. It's all just behavior and behavior can be changed, so why force yourself and your dog to live like that? (generic you, btw, Casa)

 

[Miakoda]

I will not live with a human aggressive dog. Period. I would've euthanised that dog a loooooong time ago & wouldn't have thought twice about it.

 

[milos_mommy]

i laughed at the dog being named Hannibal Lector, but it's really not funny.
That's unbelievable. I don't tolerate a dog "grrr"ing at me, if one of my dogs bit someone he'd be at a behaviorist in a heartbeat.

 

[Zoom]

I agree. Human aggression is not something I put up with, especially not from a "companion dog" who's sole purpose in life (well, these days. Yorkies used to be MUCH bigger and were used as ratters) is to sit on my lap and be adoring.

Get your friend to read either "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller or "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons if she feels that she's used up all the local "professionals".

 

[bubbatd]

To me that would be like living with a ticking time bomb . I've never understood why small dogs are allowed to act that way ,

 

[Laurelin]

To me that would be like living with a ticking time bomb . I've never understood why small dogs are allowed to act that way ,

My small dogs are NOT allowed to act that way, and none should be. Not that my papillons have a mean bone in their body. I've never even seen either of them growl at anything in their lives.

I second the advice of a behaviorist.

 

[RD]

Small dogs get away with it because when they bite, they don't take your entire arm off. An aggressive small dog is an annoyance. An aggressive large dog is dangerous.

I'd rather be attacked by a rogue Pomeranian than a dog the size of a Labrador.

 

[dr2little]

I "mainained" Ripleys aggression for a year before I snapped and decided that I WAS going to work him out of it. No "but what if he doesn't respond". It's behavior, it can be modified. ALL behavior can be modified. He's been a good dog for over a year now, it took a long time to get through to him but I think a lot of that was my inexperience. Ripley is still, and probably always will be, very reactive in certain situations but I don't have to worry about him going apeshit nuts anymore. He still gets snarly, but that's as far as it goes now.

I couldn't live with an aggressive dog again. It's all just behavior and behavior can be changed, so why force yourself and your dog to live like that? (generic you, btw, Casa)

Exactly right. This kind of aggression is a learned behavior that was somehow rewarded by the owners. I'll never understand the view that a dog should be killed because the owners allowed a behavior to get out of control. Before anyone goes off on me, I'm not referring to severe biters but rather dogs like the one described by the OP.
This is correctable over 90% of the time. The other <10 percent are the severe cases (which this is not) and the chemical/medical cases, and some of those can be worked with medication/behavior modification.

It's just so sad to hear that dogs are considered SO disposable, and I'm sorry but it's usually by people who have no experience with treatable aggression that offer this point of view. (not directed at anyone in specific)

Oh, and I think it needs to be said that it DOES NOT need to be handled by a board certified Vet. Behaviorist.....we'd be killing dogs left, right and centre if that were the case. There are so few Vet. Behaviorists out there, even in my huge city, we have access to ONE.

Like RD said, it's a behavior and most of these behaviors, particularly with small dogs in an adult home, can be modified much easier than most people realize. It does take time but it's worth the time and the effort.

Remember little Sammy, the cockerpoo who everyone was up in arms because I thought he deserved a chance. He was by the way, at least as snarly as the dog described in the OP. He had actually bitten, though was only a level 2-3 biter (most aggression cases are between 2-3) but had been allowed to escalate because of his family's lack on understanding and quite frankly their lack of compassion. They had been hitting Sammy which is all too often the case.
He is now living with my ex-husband and his family. He went through a structured rehab. here, nothing too dramatic, and has not so much as grumbled or lip curled since he went to his forever home. His case is not unusual, and with the proper structure and owner compliance the majority of dogs can become happy and SAFE members of the family again.

 

[DryCreek]

I gather there are no children around this dog? Even a dog as small as a Yorkie can cause serious damage to a child.

I agree with most, a dog that can be described as Hannibal Lector needs a final visit to the vet if the issue is as severe as it sounds.

Just to add, a bite of any size can be deadly if infection sets in.

 

[elegy]

it has nothing to do with dogs being disposable.

 

[casablanca1]

I didn't intend for this to become a conversation about my sister's dog, more interested in a general thing, but since it happened, some thoughts...

1) It's ridiculous to complain that 'little dogs' are allowed to get out of control unlike big dogs. This Yorkie is barely controllable at 12lbs. If he was 30 or 70lbs, he'd be deadly.

2) Dog-aggression is just as bad as human-aggression. The one time I've been bitten was by a lab who attacked my beardie and didn't bother to go around me to get at her. And some of the nastiest attacks on humans have come from dogs who were initially attracted to the human's dog. That can't be dismissed as 'oh, you should never put your arm into a dog fight' because in many cases the aggression turned on the human was so severe the dog killed the person.

3) It's very easy to armchair quarterback aggression; I did it with my sister's dog for a long time, and I ultimately realized I didn't have any better approach to him. Several wouldbe 'trainers' including people involved in rescue and kennels, have offered advice - until they saw him in action. Then they wanted nothing to do with him. Severe aggression is much harder to deal with than you think.

4) I don't know his history, but I don't really think he was abused or that that is the explanation. He's extremely controlling - opening the door is a great way to provoke an attack - and his attacks appear to be virtual frenzies of rage. I've wondered if it's not all history/temperament but partly some organic mental issue, because he's so insane when he bites.

5) Re: keeping him - his owner adores him, her lifestyle allows for him, and she is mildly paranoid about keeping him away from potential innocent victims. If he was a 50lb dog, it would be impossible because the odds of both an escape and a severe bite would skyrocket, but his size makes it possible.

 

[ToscasMom]

I knew a nasty little Pom that bit me twice and sent me to the doctor's office the second time, infection sent me there again for a second visit. On the other hand, I have never been bitten by any large dog I have known. I didn't regard him as mildly annoying. I regarded him as a vicious little menace. Animal control visited his house a number of times as he was often loose in front of his home, ready to take a piece out of anybody who strolled by. When he passed, there was a fairly long list of people with scars who breathed a sigh of relief. A dog like that could hurt a child beyond belief and this little creep bit the face of a child as I recall. If he had been my dog, he would have taken his last ride long before. The thing with the little ones is you don't expect it. At least if you see a large dog you tend to be guarded until you know for sure he's not vicious.

 

[RD]

Toscas - be glad it wasn't a Rottweiler. A doctor's visit is a pain in the butt, but a trip to ICU is worse. I guess that's what I was getting at. Little dogs aren't life-threatening if they are biters.

Casa, this dog sounds like my Ripley. Ripley would shut out the world when he'd go after someone, biting anything that got in his way. He was totally insane and I thought there was something physically wrong with his brain. He really was just intent on biting, and the odd thing is that most of this started with fear. His reaction to ANYTHING even remotely intimidating (and when you weigh 5lbs, a lot of things are intimidating) was to attack. I didn't think I had done anything wrong with raising him, so surely it had to be an issue with HIM and not the behavior. Maybe it is an issue with him. I really don't know, but I was able to get rid of it with a lot of desensitization. He will still freak out over certain things, because I had to desensitize him to the hundreds of things that scared him and I'm sure I still have more to work on, but the biting is gone.

I KNOW that severe aggression is difficult to deal with, but it isn't impossible. If I could go back in time, I'd do it all over again for Ripley. For a larger dog? I honestly don't know. :-/ I could work with the dog, but I don't know if I could live with it. Size does have a lot to do with it - when Ripley has a setback and decides to put teeth on me, it's just a little dent in my hand. If Dakota were to bite me, I'd need a bunch of stitches or a new hand. If Dakota were to flat-out attack me the way Ripley used to attack, I'd be mangled.

I hope your sister will reconsider working with this dog. Aggressive dogs really do live a miserable life.

 

[ToscasMom]

Toscas - be glad it wasn't a Rottweiler

But that's not an excuse. I think much of this has to do with owners thinking that because they are small, it's ok to just bite people. I knew a number of people with Rotties and I can say that they are far more responsible with their dogs. In fact, I know of no reports in my city of Rottie attacks on anybody. But there are plenty of "little dog" stories. I can honestly say that this dog was the first and only animal I ever hated. He was absolutely vile. I sent him sailing and that was the only way I got him to stop biting at me. Bit his own family whenever he felt like it too. This OP story reminds me of him.