Abused Training Tools

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#1
Since this is such a positive forum, I am posting this. It's not to upset anyone or start a huge fight. I just think that any tool can be abused and if used properly, most tools are humane.I'm really tired of hearing people say that pinch collars are evil and "choke" chains kill dogs. I hear this all the time.

Pinch collars, for instance, are actually more humane for the dog in certain circumstances. If a weak person is trying to correct a dog on anything else, they might not be able to do it and are then nagging the dog with a training collar. That is abuse to the dog and can really hurt them. A pinch collar is effective. I have tried it on myself and I am certain that it is not "evil". My dog wore it when I started training soft mouth retrieval. We probably could have gotten through it with a training collar, but the pinch made it easier on us both. She got more effective corrections, thus making them less. If used improperly though, they can really hurt a dog. If they are too tight, they can literally choke a dog. If they are loose, the corrections nag and hurt the dog. If they are not balanced out with praise, then the dog can't understand the point.

Choke Chains, or training collars, do not choke dogs when properly used. Faith wears one whenever I am home to supervise. If they are tied out on a training collar, then yes that will choke the dog. The proper way to use a training collar is to give a quick, effective snap and release. That applies pressure on the neck. The dog is naturally accustomed to a neck correction from mom as a pup, so they understand a leash snap. The people who put the collar on improperly are the ones choking the dog. They allow the dog to run to the end of the leash, thinking that choking them will stop pulling. you have to snap the collar. Also, based on what side your at on the dog, the collar needs to go a certain way. If you hold it up, it should form a letter P, not a number 9 when you put it on.

Harnesses DO NOT stop pulling. They just make the problem worse.

Head halters are used for training only. They modify a problem and don't always solve it. If you take it off, your dog starts pulling again. I realize that this is not always the case and that a good halter trainer can transition to not using one, but this is just another example of abusing a tool. Just the other day, I saw a chocolate lab walking around with a scabbed muzzle from a gentle leader. They need to be used properly.

Clickers are great training tools in the right hand. They are supposed to mark timing, not make your dog perfect. The dog is supposed to be weaned off needing them, and I can't say how many times I've seen dogs not listening when a clicker is not around. The dog needs to listen to you, not the clicker. The clicker is just a way to help the dog understand what you are asking.

Treats are used by some as rewards. If you are planning on using treats, exercise. The dog can get fat way too easily with all those goodies. Also, you need to wean the dog off of them. They are not always going to be available when you need them. The dog needs to listen to you in the end.

e-collars do not necessarily shock a dog. Certain faulty types (cheap brands) might, but a reputable one such as Dogtra, does not. once again, I have tried it on myself. They are not pleasant, but they work well. So many people think that they are a remote. You can't turn your dog off! They are a training tool. This is a live dog, not a robot and dogs can really be abused by the collar. But, in the right hands and on the right dog, they can work magic. It can make the difference between putting a dog down and keeping it.

So, please, before you use any tools on your dog: do research. Ask trainers (multiple) and get answers before you try them. Misusing these tools can be abuse to the dog.
 

Saje

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#2
You should do a search on this kind of information to see what the thoughts are behind it. These subjects come up a lot.
 

Julie

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#4
CC,
You really are coming off as a "know it all". I think you would be more repected and your thoughts would be taken more seriously if you got to know us here first. Then started answering questions and giving your input.

These long posts telling us what you should and shouldn't do fall on deaf ears, because you have not earned our trust yet. Anyone can get on here and pretend to be an expert, but in reality here at chaz I know whom to trust and whom to write off as bologna.

I am not saying you don't know what your talking about but just give some time, and talk with us, and answer others questions, I for one usually skip over posts that long. lol.

I really am not trying to come off badly, but just a friendly opinion on some thoughts that cross my mind.

Relax, and enjoy talking dogs, You might even learn something.

And nobody always agrees with everything, but most here respect the others opinions. And I bet we all can respect yours too, but give us a chance to get to know you first.

I hope this made sense. Please don't take this as offensive because it was not meant that way at all.
 
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#5
No offense at all. I just haven't really seen a lot of posting since I got on here, so I haven't had much to answer yet. Please, I am not a know-it-all, lol. I just post these so that people know my opinions. I tend to run into arguments later on if people don't know off the bat.
 
Y

yuckaduck

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#6
Harnesses DO NOT stop pulling. They just make the problem worse
Lets see harnesses make pulling worse.

I could not walk Yukon without being dragged around, same thing with Hope.

Bought two no pull harness: used them for three weeks.

Now Yukon and Hope are easily walked, together no dragging me.

Well they make the problem worse I guess for every other dog but mine.:rolleyes:

Like Julie said Know it all, and I know who I trust here and who is full of bologna
 

Richard D.

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#7
I responded to your post in the Member Intro section so I won't repost what I wrote here. There is no rule requiring you to read before posting or holding back your opinion untill people get to know you but it's not a bad idea.

As with any Internet forums you will get varied responses to any question and it's important to have your B.S. filter turned way up when you read. We tend to think people who agree with us are smart and people who disagree are dumb. Human nature.

Many topics get brought up a lot and searching first is a good idea but if we never post an old idea the forums would be very slow indeed.
 
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#8
I agree the methods are good methods IF used properly and by experienced people. For everyday people and their dogs, I would reduce the technicalities as much as possible. The idea is not to confuse the dog but to have the dog focused on his training. There is a great e collar yahoo group that knows a lot about how to train with them. Also in my Volhard training group they have a specialized prong or pinch collar that is excellent, however, it must be governed it's use by the trainers that are trained in that method. If not it is nothing but torture device.

It is good for people to know the options, because if they have no options, they are quite discouraged in their training. I think you (original poster) brought up some excellent points.
 

Mordy

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#9
ColliesCorsos, i have no intention of putting you down, but i think you need to read up a bit more on clicker training (and even more important, try it yourself) before commenting on it.

i've been involved in the "dog world" for 25 years and my current dog is my first clicker trained dog, so i'm by no means an expert, but the method has given me faster results than more traditional ones.

to give you a little background, i'm training for competitive obedience with my terrier mix and my instructor is basing her classes on morgan spector's book "Clicker Training for Obedience: Shaping Top Performance--Positively". she teaches 4 tiers of classes, beginning, intermediate and advanced competition prep and open/utility obedience. our club has obedience teams that compete in trials on all levels and these dogs perform reliably and with great enthusiasm - without the clicker present. some of the dogs in open/utility are also training for schutzhund in another club.

just like you can "mistrain" a dog to only behave when that prong collar, head halter or what-have-you is on but "forget" all that training when only a flat buckle collar is used, you can make mistakes fading the clicker, or fail to fade it at all. operant conditioning does not equal bribery. :)
 

Beauceron

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#10
Wonderful Post CC, people opinions on their dogs change like fads, think of Kohler, considered a great dog trainer of our time, he used to be an old "yank and Crank" type now he's much too passive. It depend on the dog, with my high drive Schutzhund trained intact adolescent male Beauceron I use a shock collar, with my sensitive female Bernese Mounatin dog I wouldn't dream of putting even a choke collar on her! You clearly are very knowledgable on this subject!
 
T

tessa_s212

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#11
Lol. As I read your thread, I thought of myself. You remind me of myself7 months ago. Seven months ago is about the time that I started reading more and more about clicker training. People always told me that clicker training was better and put me down for using chokes and harsh corrections to train my dog. I, of course, was defensive, and tried to tell everyone how wrong they were.

But, I was blessed with a problem dog that had been abused. She had little confidence, and I was not training her the way she needed to be trained. It took awhile, but I finally got tired of her fear aggression towards me. As I sit back and think bout it, I am sickened tht I made her so fearful of me using the methods that you find so "great".

I'm not going to sit here and preach any longer.

But, I will say this: I was once in your position. I had defended my training methods for so long. But now, I realize that they were right, and I was wrong.
 

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