A natural distrust of strangers? Filas, CAS...

showpug

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#1
I have spent some time reading about Filas, Central Asian Shepherds and some other breeds just out of sheer interest and so I could learn more about these guys.

The statement "a natural distrust of strangers" comes up a lot in describing the temperament of some of these breeds. So, I ask, what EXACTLY does this mean? I obviously understand what the phrase means, but how do these dogs act. What are some examples? Fila owners...what have your stranger experiences been like? How do you handle introducing new people to your dog? I have also seen some of these same breeds in photos at dog fairs and shows, being touched by judges and "strangers." In my mind, I would think this wouldn't be tolerated, but it is. So give me an idea of what this actually means in everyday life to own a dog like this.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#2
I think Fila's have a very specific reaction they're supposed to have (ojeriza I think) from what I read. A series of behaviors from watchfulness at a certain distance...to barking...to more...varying on the distance of the threat from the handler. I read that online and it seems to be the 'prototypical' description. Not sure if it is still being bred for,...esp in the USA where oftentimes temps change quite a bit.

Akitas are naturally wary/suspicious of strangers as well...any breed described as "aloof" IMO has some degree of people-wariness. Not to be confused at all, ever with fear...or unsureness about their own abilities and instincts.
 

showpug

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I think Fila's have a very specific reaction they're supposed to have (ojeriza I think) from what I read. A series of behaviors from watchfulness at a certain distance...to barking...to more...varying on the distance of the threat from the handler. I read that online and it seems to be the 'prototypical' description. Not sure if it is still being bred for,...esp in the USA where oftentimes temps change quite a bit.

Akitas are naturally wary/suspicious of strangers as well...any breed described as "aloof" IMO has some degree of people-wariness. Not to be confused at all, ever with fear...or unsureness about their own abilities and instincts.
Yes, I have read some of that too. I guess I may be interpreting what I am reading incorrectly, because the feel I get is that these dogs should be intolerant of strangers...do they act aggressively? lunge? attack? growl? what??lol! I guess I am just trying to get a feel for the actual interaction behind the term "natural dislike for strangers."

I am familiar with the Akita temperament and I understand aloofness too, so that helps a little.
 

Zoom

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#4
My understand, which comes from talking with Renee mostly, is that Filas generally do not allow themselves to be handled by strangers. The ones in the show rings have been "watered-down" temperment wise in order to make them easier to show, but at a loss of ojieriza. The only reason we could handle Kharma was because Renee was ok with it and we let Kharma come to us.
 

Buddy'sParents

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#5
For Bella it depends on the situation.

If we have her out in public, say the diamond for instance, she is very watchful and aware of everything that is going on. If I leave to throw a poop bag away, her eyes are on me at all times and she walks alongside the fence to "follow" me to the trashcan and then back and she will wait at the gate for me to come in. If someone is walking by, she watches their every move until they leave and sometime, she will go to that area and walk them along (to us, this is very cute, lol).

If we take her to pet store, she has a vest that says do not pet that we put on her. She often has let people pet her, but she calls these shots and I would never make her approach someone because they want to pet "that cuuuute doggy!" If someone asks if they can pet her, I explain to them that only if she will let them. For those that don't know the breed, we usually get a shocked, what the hell, look; for those that may be familiar, we usually get a bummed, I understand, here's hoping she comes to me look.

If someone comes into the home, it's completely different. It's her territory. And she lets every single person know that. When we know someone is going to come stay with us, we plan on having Bella meet them on neutral territory. When my mom came to visit, her train ended up being several hours late and it was near midnight. So Bella met her here at home. Bella was never okay with my mom being here- I feel it's because she didn't like her (my mom paid no attention to the fact that she would need to visit often if she wanted to be fully accepted by Bella- my mom didn't come until she 9 months old and by that time, her idea of "family" was already in her mind) and that we didn't do the appropriate on meet on neutral territory thing.
When my best friend came to visit, thankfully, they were able to meet on neutral territory and it went well. By the time my friend left, she was getting fila kisses and was able to be semi-alone with Bella.

Vets are a whole different story. I was so p.o.'d when our vet unexpectedly retired because he had been working with Bella from day one. She was comfortable with him. Still grates on my nerves a bit.. Bella never liked the vet that saw Buddy, so we found a new one. Their first meeting when great, we "presented" Bella to him and he was very aware of her breed and how she would be-thankfully.

The eye doc is yet another different story. We've not seen one doc every time. We've seen a total of three different ones, for check ups, etc.. and one we had only seen once actually performed her surgery. Thankfully, almost every time the same tech has been there and she has slowly been gaining Bella's trust. When I dropped Bella off for her surgery, she had to be pre-sedated, so she was pretty out of it. But a different tech tried to approach her and it didn't go well. Now, they know how serious we are when we say she needs consistency. The last time we went for a check-up, Bella jumped up on the bench with me and let Andre- the tech, sit with us and pet her. No one else is able to do that. Again, it's all on Bella's terms.

I think most of it depends on the owners, as well. If we're okay with something, then Bella is okay with it, too, but at her own level. Walking through the pet store, Bella is not going to rush to every stranger to be petted and even though I may think it's okay for so and so to pet her, it doesn't mean that she thinks it's okay for so and so to pet her.

In the few times we've had complete strangers over (to fix something, etc) she has growled. She's never bitten, nor attacked anyone. I think someone would be rather foolish to try to harm anyone in this house with her around. Her growl alone would stop anyone with a half a brain in their tracks. With that said, there has been one instance in which Bella has lunged at an individual. In this instance, her actions were completely warranted and she has proved to be an excellent specimen of her breed.
 

showpug

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#6
Bella was never okay with my mom being here-
Thanks for the detailed response! So when you say that Bella was never okay with your Mom's visit, what exactly does that mean? What did Bella do? Ignore her? Growl at her? Stare at her?

Also, what would happen if someone that Bella didn't feel comfortable with went ahead and pet her or handled her? What would be a Fila's typical reaction in that situation?
 

corsomom

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#7
I have corsos, they dont like anyone but the family. They will tolerate someone, but dont want to be pet and wont take treats from them.They are the most loving dogs with us, but I have to watch them carefuly when other people are around.
 

Sunnierhawk0

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#8
I have shown a fila for a friend a couple times, and in the past i have owned 2 filas. Atleast down here at the FBA shows, they judges do NOT put thier hands on the dog. All the judging is done by the eyes.

My two boys had two very different temperments. My one boy, Tazz, def. had the watered down temperment, but would still react when strangers came. He would bark/growl and have to be put up in a crate in another room. But if we were outside the home, on "neutral" land, I could hand him to say a vet tech, and they would go on thier merry way together. But at home he was def. the protector. My other boy wouldn't let ANYONE touch him that wasnt in the home. It made it very difficult to live with because you were always on alert and had to be extremely careful when anyone came to visit, again having to be put up.

The fila def. wasnt a dog that fit into our lifestyle, we ended up with the two dogs from a friend who had a stroke, so we took these dogs thinking " oh they are just a little protective, training can help it"... and it really wasnt until reading up and learning about the TRUE temp. that what they displayed was normal as far as the distrust of a stranger.
 
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#9
Natural distrust for the CAs also includes Must be amendable to handling,

So CAS in standard Temperament. Steady, balanced, calm, proud and independent. Typically distrustful, sometimes unfriendly to strangers. The dog is very brave, industrious, characterized by high endurance and the inborn instinct for protecting its territory and master, as well as fearlessness against large predators

DQ for the CAs as per FCI is :Disqualifications.cowardice, choleric temperament, uncontrollable irritability;

Choleric is defined as :Choleric type: strong, unbalanced, EASILY aroused (excitable)
All below A CAS should NOT have and often does to imprope breeding and lack of owner socialization.

1. Display very strongly developed arousal (excitement) processes with weakly developed inhibition processes.
2. Often appear unruly and out of control with aggressive tendencies
3. Are very active dogs. Responses to commands and hand signals are very fast and trigger arousal (excitement) processes. But the accuracy in the performance of tasks is often poor, since inhibition (blocking) processes are weakly developed and arousal processes dominate them.
4. Do not differentiate as clearly between tasks as the active defensive reaction is pronounced.
5. Appear irascible (easily angered or quick tempered) with low stimulus
 
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#10
So whenI show working dogs in the show ring I USE happy voice and often touch the judge and never let my hands leave my dog.

This tells the dog that the judge has been propertly introduced and is ok.
Some dogs are more defensive than others so you just need to be able to read the dog.
And NEVER push the dog bryond what is comfortable doing.

SO CAS should NEVER be shown like a Fila and the ones that are NOT correct for the breed......
 
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#11
When someone is coming towards me I dont stand my ground I cue the dog to move fwd and to great the person, I use loose leash and happy voice.
I shake thier hands or kiss them if I know them and I have them say HELLO to the dog,
This results in a CAS kiss or handshake or they lean into the person like a Cat.

For dog showing they simply need training and a trust of the owner comes easy when done correctly. I can even cue them to take bait from a judge INSIDE in the ring and they would NEVER do that outside the ring without my cue.

 

showpug

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When someone is coming towards me I dont stand my ground I cue the dog to move fwd and to great the person, I use loose leash and happy voice.
I shake thier hands or kiss them if I know them and I have them say HELLO to the dog,
This results in a CAS kiss or handshake or they lean into the person like a Cat.

For dog showing they simply need training and a trust of the owner comes easy when done correctly. I can even cue them to take bait from a judge INSIDE in the ring and they would NEVER do that outside the ring without my cue.

Great information, thank you. CAS's are a breed I am very interested in. So, my next question is, if you are at home expecting company that the dog has never met, do they have to be crated? If they are out of their crate when a stranger comes into the home then what happens? What is their body language? Do they growl, or if you accept the person then they accept the person? What about strange children?
 
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#13
Nope same happy voice . I use Daddys home every day , then switch it to Candys HEEEEERREEEEEEE and then I use Look who is here.

As long as im relaxed and using that high nasal voice and I open the door you can come in.

All my dogs are Loose but 2 in yards or in the house with buyers and family.



When anyone comes here they TOUCH 3 generations of working dogs.







Each dogs needs different cues some dogs are high AdR some low.
Teddy is low- bear and FF Jlo his kid are high.
This means I bring them out last to greet people and they get the FEEL from the other dogs no threat quicker.
 
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#14
With this said if I do NOT open the door the dogs will sTOP you form coming in.

Coz will hit the door like he did this week with a new UPS driver- who dared to open the screen door - no cue he im sure made the guy **** in his pants.

Also the same pack of 8 dogs loose in a yard with you kissy face with you.
Will NOT let you back into the yard unless I open the gate and tell them to back off.

You can NOT move towards the puppies or the sheep areas the dogs protects those you are allowed access to a area I created as a safe neutral area.

http://www.casdog.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/664

link to visitors to FF all shapes and sizes

here is a link to FF dogs out in about in public greetings strangers.
Working at middle schools, petco and even on TV
http://www.casdog.com/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/603
So much wrong info has been posted on CAS temperament based on one kennel of show dogs or therapy dogs it has done damage to my 11 years of work.
 
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#15
That was the good stuff here is the bad stuff.
Lets say someone rushes in the door they will TOOTH butt them to the ground and determine if they are a threat if not they are let up and this could be a dumb person in your family who just won $20 in lotto and forgets the dog is there.

Now if it a bad guy they will circle , rush, growl worse then a bite, bite shake release and come back for more if the person starts crying and or backing off they may not let them leave unless the owner comes down or home. As soon as the owner gives them enough they back off unless the person threatens the owner.

They show mercy and kindness but in due to die my money is on the dog.
 

showpug

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#16
Great information, thanks! Just out of curiosity and lack of wanting to search right now, how much do CAS's weigh at maturity?
 

Buddy'sParents

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#18
Thanks for the detailed response! So when you say that Bella was never okay with your Mom's visit, what exactly does that mean? What did Bella do? Ignore her? Growl at her? Stare at her?

Also, what would happen if someone that Bella didn't feel comfortable with went ahead and pet her or handled her? What would be a Fila's typical reaction in that situation?
No problem. :)

Bella was on my mom constantly (unless Bella was leashed to me or crated). Her every move was watched and if my mom stepped out of bounds, moved too quickly or erratically, Bella growled. It was very much known that my mom was lower on the totem pole than Bella. A lot of it was my mom's disinterest in doing what we said. Bella had never had a guest stay overnight, so it was a new experience for all of us and my mom tried to run the show- Bella wasn't okay with that. ;) Bella's house, Bella's rules (within reason, of course).

I honestly don't think that someone (now) would pet or handle Bella without her being okay with it. I'll have to record her growl one of these days. It is the most intimidating sound I've ever heard, sometimes when she is playing with the boys, I have to stop what I am doing to make sure that it's still play.
If you would like to hear of past experiences, I'd be more than happy to share them via PM. :)
 

showpug

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No problem. :)

Bella was on my mom constantly (unless Bella was leashed to me or crated). Her every move was watched and if my mom stepped out of bounds, moved too quickly or erratically, Bella growled. It was very much known that my mom was lower on the totem pole than Bella. A lot of it was my mom's disinterest in doing what we said. Bella had never had a guest stay overnight, so it was a new experience for all of us and my mom tried to run the show- Bella wasn't okay with that. ;) Bella's house, Bella's rules (within reason, of course).

I honestly don't think that someone (now) would pet or handle Bella without her being okay with it. I'll have to record her growl one of these days. It is the most intimidating sound I've ever heard, sometimes when she is playing with the boys, I have to stop what I am doing to make sure that it's still play.
If you would like to hear of past experiences, I'd be more than happy to share them via PM. :)
I would love to hear them. It's a very interesting temperament and I just really want a clearer understanding of it. I have read quite a bit on Filas, but the comments on temperament are always broad and non-specific so it's been hard for me to get a real feel for what they are like. PM away when you have the time!:D
 
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#20
The growl sounds like a lion :D

A well-bred, confident Fila with proper temperament is NOT a dog that barks a warning or barks to get themselves worked up. Barking happens when the dog can't get to the problem to properly check it out.

Nikki's description of Bella's reactions is a good synopsis of what you want to see in a Fila.

As far as I'm aware of, the Fila is the only breed not required to allow the judges to handle them. Their temperament test is also opposite the normal temperament test.
 

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