5 reasons to stop saying "good job" child behavior
- Thread starter Doberluv
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I totally agree with Sparks.... although we're working on speech here so I usually only say 'good job' when I asked them to do something and they did it... If I tell them 'can you show me the square', I'm not going to say 'good job showing me the square', lol (dumb example, I'd probably say 'yes, that's the square', but you get the idea).
But yes, all the other points seem to show that praise as a whole is bad anyway...
But yes, all the other points seem to show that praise as a whole is bad anyway...
Yes, and like I (and others) said before, the point of the article is not "Don't praise your child." It's "Give constructive praise, rather than just a 'good job.'"
Yes it will. Because "Good job" is vague and non-descriptive, the child doesn't know exactly what he's getting praised for. It's like giving treats to a dog for doing a good behavior, but not using a marker to communicate exactly what the right behavior was; it works, but it takes longer and causes confusion, and a lot of times dogs never really figure out that their behavior is what's getting them the treat.
But explaining exactly what the child did right gives him something to focus on next time; he understands exactly what he did that was so good, and will be more likely to do it again.
Is this whole conversation nit-picky and a little too detail-focused? Yes.
Is some praise better than no praise at all? Of course.
Does anyone here think you're a bad parent if you say "good job"? Of course not.
But, if you really think about it, is there some truth to what the author is trying to explain? Yeah, I think so.
Yes it will. Because "Good job" is vague and non-descriptive, the child doesn't know exactly what he's getting praised for. It's like giving treats to a dog for doing a good behavior, but not using a marker to communicate exactly what the right behavior was; it works, but it takes longer and causes confusion, and a lot of times dogs never really figure out that their behavior is what's getting them the treat.
But explaining exactly what the child did right gives him something to focus on next time; he understands exactly what he did that was so good, and will be more likely to do it again.
Is this whole conversation nit-picky and a little too detail-focused? Yes.
Is some praise better than no praise at all? Of course.
Does anyone here think you're a bad parent if you say "good job"? Of course not.
But, if you really think about it, is there some truth to what the author is trying to explain? Yeah, I think so.
I really don't see how it makes a child not need praise. they got praised for what they did right and good job does basically the same thing. yes they know exactly WHAT they did right but I don't see how it would stop them from "needing praise for everything they do"
as for the dog training thing. I can't say I ever really used markers. I praised them at the moment they did what I was asking for. or do you mean markers as in the word sit? is that a marker? lol I really don't know.
but I'm also not sure how when hannah climbs a ladder and I say GOOD JOB how she doesn't know what I'm telling her good job for. now if it's something more detailed like a series of things I would point out specific things. but for some things it just seems redundant like when she climbed a ladder by herself to say GOOD JOB for climbing the ladder. it seems she would be able to figure out that the good job was for what she JUST did which was climb the ladder.
I mean if you NEVER say anything other good job and never give any other praise for anything then yeah thats kind of pointless. but I know when I would have a wrestling match after I was done my dad would say "good match" that was good enough for me. of course... he wo uldn't know what to point out LOL.
as for the dog training thing. I can't say I ever really used markers. I praised them at the moment they did what I was asking for. or do you mean markers as in the word sit? is that a marker? lol I really don't know.
but I'm also not sure how when hannah climbs a ladder and I say GOOD JOB how she doesn't know what I'm telling her good job for. now if it's something more detailed like a series of things I would point out specific things. but for some things it just seems redundant like when she climbed a ladder by herself to say GOOD JOB for climbing the ladder. it seems she would be able to figure out that the good job was for what she JUST did which was climb the ladder.
I mean if you NEVER say anything other good job and never give any other praise for anything then yeah thats kind of pointless. but I know when I would have a wrestling match after I was done my dad would say "good match" that was good enough for me. of course... he wo uldn't know what to point out LOL.
I know someone, an adult, who does a lot of good things. She helps people and can really "git 'er done." But she needs badly, almost obsessively to make sure everyone knows what she's done. She talks about. She even asks people to be sure to tell so and so what she did. She needs praise, admiration, adulation to the hilt. I happen to know she was praised amply as a child. What do you suppose is her problem? Is she insecure in some other area that she needs to over compensate for those insecurities by seeking out praise? Why do other peoples' opinions matter so much to her? Why does she not take pleasure in doing these things so well for the sake of the virtue itself? Could it be a contributing factor that she depended on praise to feel good about herself? What if those things she did that were praise-worthy as a child were pointed out in such a way that it wasn't the praise of other people, in and of itself, that was valuable to her, but instead, the feeling she got from within herself that what she did brought on the self esteem that everyone needs?
Maybe that's why I understand this so easily, because I'm a clicker trainer.
A clicker is a marker. A marker is a sound that is used to communicate clearly what behavior the dog is doing that is getting him the treat. You pair the marker with treats, so that the dog understands that the marker tells him that a treat is coming. If you want your dog to sit, you click right at the moment he put his butt on the ground, to let him know exactly what behavior he did to get a treat.
It becomes more useful when you're shaping a behavior. Let's say I'm trying to shape my dog to retrieve a dumbell. First I want him to look at the dumbell. Well, he's probably going to be looking everywhere, and at the same time he's going to be walking around, listening to other things, and doing any number of other behaviors. At some point he will give a fleeting glance to the dumbell.... and I click that glance and reward the dog. After a few reps, he will start to figure out that looking at the dumbell is what is getting him a click - and a treat - and will start purposefully looking at the dumbell.
If I don't use a clicker, if I just treat my dog for looking at the dumbell, the communication is not as clear; it will take him much longer to figure out what behavior he's doing that gets him the reward..... is it looking at the floor? Is it stepping sideways? Is it panting? Is it whining? Is it looking for the treat? Yeah, he'll probably figure it out eventually, but it will take much longer.
Most trainers will probably get frustrated that it goes so slow, and start pointing at the dumbell, or waving it around, to prompt him to look at it; which will cause the dog to just wait until the human prompts the behavior he should do.... making the dog rely on the human to do the correct behavior instead of offering it on his own. All because he's not getting clear feedback about what he's doing that's right.
In your example of the ladder climbing: Let's say my kid climbs the ladder and I say good job. He's not sure why I said good job, he doesn't really know what he did that was so good. Next time he climbs the ladder, I happen to not be watching and don't say good job; since he didn't know what he did right the time before, he assumes that he did something wrong this time to not get a good job... so he calls to me "did I do good?" and I say "yeah." Well, he still doesn't know what he did right. So every time he will want to know if that was a good one or not.
But, let's say he climbs the ladder, and I say "you climbed it really fast that time, and held on really well with your hands, good for you!" He knows exactly what he did well. Next time he climbs and I happen to not be watching; he calls to me "I climbed even faster that time!" And I say, "Oh wow, you're getting really fast!" He didn't need me to tell him how fast he climbed, he could feel it was faster than the last time; and instead of looking for me to tell him whether he did right or not, he could brag at how well he knew he did.
A clicker is a marker. A marker is a sound that is used to communicate clearly what behavior the dog is doing that is getting him the treat. You pair the marker with treats, so that the dog understands that the marker tells him that a treat is coming. If you want your dog to sit, you click right at the moment he put his butt on the ground, to let him know exactly what behavior he did to get a treat.
It becomes more useful when you're shaping a behavior. Let's say I'm trying to shape my dog to retrieve a dumbell. First I want him to look at the dumbell. Well, he's probably going to be looking everywhere, and at the same time he's going to be walking around, listening to other things, and doing any number of other behaviors. At some point he will give a fleeting glance to the dumbell.... and I click that glance and reward the dog. After a few reps, he will start to figure out that looking at the dumbell is what is getting him a click - and a treat - and will start purposefully looking at the dumbell.
If I don't use a clicker, if I just treat my dog for looking at the dumbell, the communication is not as clear; it will take him much longer to figure out what behavior he's doing that gets him the reward..... is it looking at the floor? Is it stepping sideways? Is it panting? Is it whining? Is it looking for the treat? Yeah, he'll probably figure it out eventually, but it will take much longer.
Most trainers will probably get frustrated that it goes so slow, and start pointing at the dumbell, or waving it around, to prompt him to look at it; which will cause the dog to just wait until the human prompts the behavior he should do.... making the dog rely on the human to do the correct behavior instead of offering it on his own. All because he's not getting clear feedback about what he's doing that's right.
In your example of the ladder climbing: Let's say my kid climbs the ladder and I say good job. He's not sure why I said good job, he doesn't really know what he did that was so good. Next time he climbs the ladder, I happen to not be watching and don't say good job; since he didn't know what he did right the time before, he assumes that he did something wrong this time to not get a good job... so he calls to me "did I do good?" and I say "yeah." Well, he still doesn't know what he did right. So every time he will want to know if that was a good one or not.
But, let's say he climbs the ladder, and I say "you climbed it really fast that time, and held on really well with your hands, good for you!" He knows exactly what he did well. Next time he climbs and I happen to not be watching; he calls to me "I climbed even faster that time!" And I say, "Oh wow, you're getting really fast!" He didn't need me to tell him how fast he climbed, he could feel it was faster than the last time; and instead of looking for me to tell him whether he did right or not, he could brag at how well he knew he did.
Good posts Lizzybeth. You've given good examples.:hail:
It's not about not praising. (for the kazillinth time. lol) It's about not doing things that make a child soley dependent on praise or other peoples' opinions to get his feeling of self worth. It's also not about not appreciating other peoples' praise or opinions. Of course, we all like that. The point is that there are good ideas in that article to help a child learn to derive his feeling of worthiness from within rather than entirely from without.
It's not about not praising. (for the kazillinth time. lol) It's about not doing things that make a child soley dependent on praise or other peoples' opinions to get his feeling of self worth. It's also not about not appreciating other peoples' praise or opinions. Of course, we all like that. The point is that there are good ideas in that article to help a child learn to derive his feeling of worthiness from within rather than entirely from without.
I guess I just lucked out 
Hannah has never turned to me and asked "did I do a good job?" (at least not at this age)or looked to me for my approval of something she just did. She doesn't seem to be a "look what I did" kind of kid. that is likely just her personality (as is maybe the issue with t he person in doberluv's post. perhaps she is just the type of person to have low self "Esteem" no matter what she does and it may not b e anyon'es FAULT).
She climbs the ladder because she wants to do it. not because she wants me to see what she did or to hear me tell her good job even though I tell her good job A LOT. she climbs the ladder because she enjoys it whether I see her or recognize it or not. when it comes to more important things like school work and other things yes I will be more detailed about what was good about it and talk about what was incorrect. but playing at the park (as was the example in the article)... I don't think it all requires a detailed praise.
Hannah has never turned to me and asked "did I do a good job?" (at least not at this age)or looked to me for my approval of something she just did. She doesn't seem to be a "look what I did" kind of kid. that is likely just her personality (as is maybe the issue with t he person in doberluv's post. perhaps she is just the type of person to have low self "Esteem" no matter what she does and it may not b e anyon'es FAULT). She climbs the ladder because she wants to do it. not because she wants me to see what she did or to hear me tell her good job even though I tell her good job A LOT. she climbs the ladder because she enjoys it whether I see her or recognize it or not. when it comes to more important things like school work and other things yes I will be more detailed about what was good about it and talk about what was incorrect. but playing at the park (as was the example in the article)... I don't think it all requires a detailed praise.
I didn't say anything in my post about not praising or not appreciating others praise.
simply that "good job" is not a death sentence for a kids self worth.
personally I think that praise with a helping of discipline is just fine. Giving a child a detailed praise and never disciplining them or discipling too much leaves a child needing the praise to live life.
simply that "good job" is not a death sentence for a kids self worth.
personally I think that praise with a helping of discipline is just fine. Giving a child a detailed praise and never disciplining them or discipling too much leaves a child needing the praise to live life.
I didn't mean that you said that. I meant that it has been repeated or implied a lot throughout this thread, generally.
I agree with you that saying "good job" is not a death sentence. We'd have a lot of children dropping like flies if that were the case.
Discipline (which means teaching) is quite naturally a part of parenting. No argument there.
I agree with you that saying "good job" is not a death sentence. We'd have a lot of children dropping like flies if that were the case.
Discipline (which means teaching) is quite naturally a part of parenting. No argument there.
It's probably been brought up before but honestly I didn't read the whole thread, so:
What's the counterpoint to this? I have two friends and an acquaintance that feel their parents didn't give a **** because they never told them 'good job' or 'I'm proud of you' or any kind of re-enforcers. At the risk of losing my self-worth, I'd prefer the latter to the former. Ones a guaranteed way to lose self-worth and the other is a maybe way.
What's the counterpoint to this? I have two friends and an acquaintance that feel their parents didn't give a **** because they never told them 'good job' or 'I'm proud of you' or any kind of re-enforcers. At the risk of losing my self-worth, I'd prefer the latter to the former. Ones a guaranteed way to lose self-worth and the other is a maybe way.
That's stating the obvious though. Of course anyone would prefer praise over nothing or worse...abuse. But there's a way to fine tune it so that it promotes what was discussed in the article and in some of our posts. You probably need to read the whole thing to understand what the "point/counter point" is. LOL.
I still think it depends on the kid, age, situation, ect...
When Katie first started (completely on her own, not asked) to empty the dishwasher for me I said "Good Job" after every dish almost. Now its occasionaly, plus when we are done. THe same thing goes with the Dryer. She pulls the cloths out so I dont have to bend down. She's also only 16 months old. I whont still be doing it when she's 16 years old
When Katie first started (completely on her own, not asked) to empty the dishwasher for me I said "Good Job" after every dish almost. Now its occasionaly, plus when we are done. THe same thing goes with the Dryer. She pulls the cloths out so I dont have to bend down. She's also only 16 months old. I whont still be doing it when she's 16 years old