3 year old yellow lab, biting problem (serious)

[KyleH186]

I have had a 3 year old yellow lab since he was 6 weeks old. He is 98 pounds. He is generally a playful, energetic dog who is very loving and protective. However he has always had a very random mean streak that seems to manifest under certain conditions.

This mean streak usually results in him biting or attacking me, or members of my family. He chomps down on our hand several times very hard and very quickly and then backs away. He doesn't latch and hold on, but rather goes for as many bites as possible. This has happened about 7 times in his life.

The first couple of times occurred when I tried to take a marrow bone, or a pigs ear away from him. He immediately acted to protect his food. Another time happened when he was barking out the window at some dogs outside, and I went to go grab his chain (he wears a prong collar at almost all times) to pull him away from the window. Twice I have tried to get him to get up and go outside or in another room while he was laying asleep in his bed at night time, and both times resulted in a biting attack.

He sleeps in my mother's room (I am 22, and live with my parents and my 20 year old brother.) We have a 4 month old black labrador puppy that constantly annoys our older dog, but for the most part they play fine. In the morning my older dog wants nothing to do with the puppy though, as he is still pretty sleepy/groggy. My mother was leaving early this morning and was going to bring the older dog into my room where the younger puppy sleeps. He followed her to the door of her room and when she put her hand down to grab the chain to gently lead him down to my room he bit her pretty badly on her hand. He has made it clear that he does not like coming into my room in the morning with the puppy in the past by trying to go downstairs or just staying in my Mom's room, but even so we never thought he would protest so angrily and without any warning by biting my Mom.


Now I know that this is a problem that should have been corrected at a younger age by teaching him to be less protective of things such as food and bones. We have the prong collar because he is a very strong-willed dominant dog. I have done all sorts of dominance training such as the alpha dog position, the Cesar Milan bite grip hand thing, down commands etc. He knows his place but these sporadic attacks seem to be almost instinctual and not planned, which makes them even more scary. My Mom says she does not know if she can trust him anymore. I know that he feels bad about what he did (he has been moping all day since the incident, as he usually does after a biting attack.) Is it too late to fix this problem, and is my dog too dangerous? Any insight at all will be very helpful, thank you.

 

[corgipower]

I have had a 3 year old yellow lab since he was 6 weeks old. He is 98 pounds. He is generally a playful, energetic dog who is very loving and protective. However he has always had a very random mean streak that seems to manifest under certain conditions.

Dogs really don't have "mean streaks"

The first couple of times occurred when I tried to take a marrow bone, or a pigs ear away from him. He immediately acted to protect his food. Another time happened when he was barking out the window at some dogs outside, and I went to go grab his chain (he wears a prong collar at almost all times) to pull him away from the window. Twice I have tried to get him to get up and go outside or in another room while he was laying asleep in his bed at night time, and both times resulted in a biting attack.

For the guarding of bones, work on playing trade games with him. Give him something lower value, then have him trade it by him releasing the object to you and you giving him a high value treat.

Ditch the prong collar. If the barking is a problem, work on a quiet command and redirection to something else. Instead of pulling him away from the window, work on teaching him to come to you on a command or to go to a place where he can calm down and refocus away from the window.

Now I know that this is a problem that should have been corrected at a younger age by teaching him to be less protective of things such as food and bones. We have the prong collar because he is a very strong-willed dominant dog. I have done all sorts of dominance training such as the alpha dog position, the Cesar Milan bite grip hand thing, down commands etc. He knows his place but these sporadic attacks seem to be almost instinctual and not planned, which makes them even more scary. My Mom says she does not know if she can trust him anymore. I know that he feels bad about what he did (he has been moping all day since the incident, as he usually does after a biting attack.) Is it too late to fix this problem, and is my dog too dangerous? Any insight at all will be very helpful, thank you.

As for him being dominant, please read http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t99568/. There are other threads here also that discuss dominance that you can search for.

Please stop alpha rolling him!! And please stop using Cesar Milan's methods. Those don't train a dog, they scare a dog. He has learned that people are unpredictable and scary. He bites because he feels a need to defend himself, which is a fear response.

 

[Zoom]

I don't know that your dog has a "mean streak" so much as having been taught that he needs to protect himself and his possessions because bad things happen when hands are present.

First, STOP STOP STOP using the "dominance theory" crap Milan is so fond of using. This is what has created most of your issues, or at least exacerbated them. You've taught your dog to fear you and your random "attacks", so he has learned to act first, fast and in an over the top manner.

Second, take off the prong collar. Prongs are training collars, not everyday general-wear collars. He's being corrected for everything little thing he does when he has this on.

Third, do a Google search for NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free). This method makes your dog have to work and earn pretty much everything he wants. If he wants to eat, he needs to obey commands (such as a sit/wait, or down/wait, or some tricks he knows, etc). Hand-feed him his meals for awhile, so he learns that hands near his food means good things are coming, instead of good things are about to go away. When you've worked back to him eating out of a bowl, every so often reach down and drop a bit of chicken, or cheese, into his bowl, so he learns to love having hands near him when he's eating.

Fourth, teach him how to trade. Don't let him have 'high-value' stuff for awhile. Start with something he doesn't care much about. Give it to him for a moment and then offer him something he likes more in return.

Use a leash to lead him places until he has gotten over his collar-reactiveness. I can almost guarantee you this has arisen because of the constant prong-collar use and being alpha-rolled.

 

[KyleH186]

The reason we got the prong collar is for walking him. It was the only collar that allowed us full control over him while we walked, and even then it takes several very strong jerks and a tight grip to keep him from chasing after things like bicycles and other dogs. (he just wants to run up to them and play, nothing vicious, but even so he pulls like a freight train.)

Do you guys recommend ceasing the use of the prong collar altogether or just indoors? What do you guys recommend to keep around his neck while indoors, nothing, a leash collar, a choke chain?

Also after showing the first 2 replies to my mother, she insists that there is something further wrong with him because of the following facts:

1) When he lays on a footstool or at the foot of a bed, or even on the floor next to our bed in a sleep position, any movement around him or that touches him causes him to let out a grumpy kind of noise, like a pseudo-bark/growl.

2) We have to be very careful about waking him up because he wakes up angrily if we try and rouse him quickly with our hands near him. (I think this could be a collar problem, but I just wanted to clarify.)

We are taking him to the vet tomorrow to make sure there isn't a health concern, although I am highly doubtful that he has anything physically wrong with him since this has been ongoing behavior for pretty much his entire life. (the grumpyness while sleeping only started within the last year or so, but I figured that was just him being an adult and not a puppy.)

I will be trying the hand feeding tonight to see how that goes. Thanks for the replies so far.

 

[Zoom]

It sounds like he's so used to getting his own way and has figured out that he can intimidate your family into doing what he wants.

Indoors, just keep a normal flat nylon buckle collar on him and when you need to, attach a leash and have a handful of great stuff if you need to lead him away from something. It sounds like he's learned a negative association with any sort of collar pressure.

My foster Lab used to make grumpy/annoyed noises if I disturbed her and would huff at me when I told her to get off the bed (but she did it anyway). Some Labs are just vocal dogs. Where did you get him from?

You might also look for a certified behaviorist in your area that uses positive methods. A dog that has progressed to biting is a serious case; it's not the end of the world but it does take a trained professional to fully work on it, because they will be able to pick up on body language cues that many regular people miss.

 

[corgipower]

If you need some extra control to walk him, I suggest the halti harness. Meanwhile, work on training him to pay attention to you and to walk on a loose lead using positive motivation methods.

Around the house, I would use a flat collar and as Zoom suggests, a leash when you need to lead him somewhere. My dogs usually don't wear anything around the house.

A vet check certainly isn't a bad idea, but it sounds more like he's learned to be distrustful and defensive and that by growling and biting he gets left alone. When waking him up, I would toss a few treats at him so he learns that being disturbed while he's sleeping gets him good things.

 

[Doberluv]

Without seeing your dog, it is hard to know if what you're seeing is what you're interpretting, if he's really being aggressive or what....but in any case, here's a link that might help:

Teaching your aggressive dog deferential behavior

A very important concept:

26. Zen

Another good thing to put into practice:

possessiveness

These are helpful articles, but I recommend getting in a good pos. method trainer to help you too. It's always best to have someone evaluate your dog in person.

As far as having him wake up grumpy, hold a long handled wooden spoon with a glob of peanut butter on it near his nose when he's sleeping. Don't bother his sleep too many times, but when you are going to wake him up, do this. He'll come to look forward to being awaken. (if you don't harrass him about it.)

I agree with so much that has already been advised. Especially Cesar Milan's methods. These methods are often which create the problems you're describing, such as the defensive behavior upon grabbing hold of his collar etc. That can all be turned around using pos. methods however....by associating GRADUALLY the neck being touched, collar being grabbed with exceedingly tasty treats at the same time.

 

[lizzybeth727]

IMO, the growling/"complaining" when being woken up or disturbed from his sleeping position is a form of resource guarding - he has something he wants, and he is uncomfortable with other people doing what he perceives as trying to take that away from him. It's the same thing you're seeing with bones and pigs' ears, when you come close (which he thinks means that you're going to take them away), he gets on the offensive and lets you know that he doesn't like that. When he's sleeping comfortably, he doesn't want to be disturbed or get his sleeping place taken away, so he will let you know not to bother him.

Also IMO, a dog who is resource guarding is being extremely pushy; if there's one thing I can't tolerate, it's a pushy dog. Take note of the things that are important to him - food, good chews, specific sleeping places, etc. - and ONLY let him have access to these things when he's done something to earn them. It's like the NILIF lifestyle someone mentioned above. I'd suggest having him sleep in a crate for a few weeks (which he might actually like, because it is his space), along with working on the other resource guarding things that others have mentioned. When he gets better about resource guarding food, chew toys, etc., THEN try letting him sleep out of the crate, in his chosen spot, again. And while he's there, practice the above suggestions of what to do when you need to wake him up or get him to move. If he still "complains," even a tiny bit, have him sleep in the crate the next week or so and try it again.

Hopefully, once he gets the hang of NILIF and learns that humans coming near his stuff is good, he will once again be able to sleep out of the crate in whatever spot he chooses.

 

[bubbatd]

I'm so sorry !!! Have you checked with the breeder as to the statis of the rest ot the litter or the parents ???

 

[Abacus]

3 yrs old
98 lbs
Multiple attacks on his own family ....

I think you are way beyond the Cesar Milan debate or trading treats for his bone stuff.

Get some professional help or get rid of the dog before someone gets seriously hurt.

 

[puppydog]

3 yrs old
98 lbs
Multiple attacks on his own family ....

I think you are way beyond the Cesar Milan debate or trading treats for his bone stuff.

Get some professional help or get rid of the dog before someone gets seriously hurt.

Bollocks! This is still very much reversable.

This dog needs to be treated with respect and taught appropriate behaviours that do not involve force or physically moving him around. I suggest getting a clicker and installing NILIF for all dogs in the household.

 

[Zoom]

I've worked with dogs who have these issues before and I was working with them in a boarding kennel situation, much higher stress situation and many dogs go on the defensive who are normally sweethearts. This can be fixed and fairly easily, provided the time, effort and consistency is put in. I do think some professional help is needed, just to make sure all signals and issues are being addressed...there are always things you can't help with over the internet, though you can still get good ideas of where to start, or even if the issue is worth trying to fix.

 

[KyleH186]

His sister is owned by my uncle and is an absolute sweetheart. She does have a heart condition though, so I don't know how highly that speaks of the quality of the litter.

We took him to the vet to get his hips checked and some bloodwork done to see if there was any physical problems. His hips are fine, and still waiting on the bloodwork, but the vet basically agreed that it was a training issue and recommended a behaviorist. Said she charges 400 for a 2 hour consult, then 3 months of free e-mail and phone contact. Not sure if that is a ripoff or a standard operating procedure.

I have been hand feeding him and he is very good about that, but the vet made sure to let me know that it is a far cry from being able to take his bowl away from him while he is eating, so I will have to carefully work my way up to that point. We tried making him sleep downstairs and he literally whined til 3 a.m. when my parents let him back to his normal sleeping spot. I will try making him sleep in his crate tonight, although he hasn't slept a night in there since he was a puppy. (he goes in there all the time during the day, just not sure how he will like it at night.)


I will keep updating.

 

[Brattina88]

Let us know about the blood work. Sometimes hormones, thyroids, ect effect the way a dog feels. Heck, when I don't feel well I'm pretty grumpy... especially when I wake up in the morning LOL

Your dog sounds A LOT like my current foster dog, Buckeye. The only difference is Buck's a 25lb 2yr old black cocker spaniel I am using positive reinforcement, NILIF, and the clicker and he is already improving in the 3 weeks (tomorrow) that I've had him in my home.
Buckeye is very reactive if you pull or push on the collar in any way. He WILL snap at you, and he can break the skin. The hard part about that is, even if you know not to pull on the collar - it is a human reaction to reach for the collar if he's trying to bolt out the door, back up when your trying to get them to go somewhere, etc. I do not know Buckeye's past, but I know he's had a shock collar, and who knows maybe a prong, but I do know that some kind of rough collar handling has made him learn to react like this. I can see the look in his eyes (his pupils get huge instantly, and stay that way until there is a resolve) that he feels trapped, and he knows how to get his way. The first thing I did was take off the collar and put on a harness so I wouldn't be tempted to grab the collar. Now, I could say that was an "easy fix" but I am still working on the whole collar thing. He now lets me pet and rub his neck, I can even pat sort of roughly. With the clicker, I am teaching him that collar handling=a good thing! We are going slow - he now allows me put on a collar, to grab the collar (I say "gotchya!" in a playful tone), I click and treat. It may be a month before I progress to leading him around by the collar - maybe more, but thats okay, hes already improving!

He also resource guards (bones, food, etc) like your dog does. I have already made progress on this, so I can truthfully say there is hope! I have been sort of going by this article ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Help for Object Guarding and improvising when need be. In addition to his chews Buckeye is obsessed with plastic; bottles, caps, wrappers, and these things can do him damage if he ingests them, so I keep different high value treats in a candy dish in almost every room, incase I need to make an urgent trade. If someone came up to you and took your paycheck and gave you a check for double, wouldn't you want to give them your paycheck next time? And on the flip side, if the same bully came up to you every week and took your paycheck and left you with nothing, the following week, wouldn't you fight them to keep it? After all, you worked hard for your check (think NILIF) - not them!

Where I'm at right now with Buckeye and the resource guarding is that I can take anything from him, no problem. But now we have to open it up, and involve my family and friends to work with him (which might be a challenge with the humans, not the dog :lol-sign: )

At this point, Cesar techniques would be making it worse. "Getting rid of the dog" would also make it worse - if the dog doesn't get help in the hands of another owner would probably get put to sleep. Getting professional help would be beneficial, especially if you are not sure how to proceed. I hope that helps, even a little!

 

[ihartgonzo]

It's a really good idea to crate this dog when he sleeps. And to hand feed him. And to never, ever use his collar to correct him again... too many people rely on painful collars, jerking, and corrections to control their dogs. What is that teaching the dog? Touching the collar is going to result in pain. Straining toward other dogs/bikes/people while on leash results in pain. Dogs are very intelligent and will make associations quickly.

From now on, stop thinking of a leash or a collar as a means of moving your dog around and controlling him, and use them only as a means of keeping him safe. Use your voice, your body language (I highly recommend researching dog body language), and rewards like food, toys, and affection instead to teach him what you want from him and to obey without you having to bully him around physically. A lot of people think that big, strong dogs need to be dealt with forcefully... but honestly, using force often just teaches them to push back physically and that's a BAD thing, particularly for a 100 lb powerful dog.

 

[corgipower]

We took him to the vet to get his hips checked and some bloodwork done to see if there was any physical problems. His hips are fine, and still waiting on the bloodwork, but the vet basically agreed that it was a training issue and recommended a behaviorist. Said she charges 400 for a 2 hour consult, then 3 months of free e-mail and phone contact. Not sure if that is a ripoff or a standard operating procedure.

A good veterinary behaviorist isn't cheap, but is worth it. If you do hire her, at that price, ask for several references before paying.

Let us know how it goes with the bloodwork and keep us updated on the training. I'm so glad to hear that you're taking the right steps. Pat yourself on the back because changing what we do is the hard part.

Try closing the door of his crate during the day for short periods of time so that when it comes to putting him in there overnight it's not an 'OMG I'm locked in here!!!' issue. He might cry for a few nights. I strongly suggest investing in good ear plugs. As long as you stick to it and don't give in to the crying, he'll settle down.