2 dominate females, 1 terrified owner

[sjoh4]

I posted this under new members and was advised to post it here, can't get the photo to attach here.
I am new to this site, just hoping for any help I can find on this matter.
I live alone with these two dogs and love them both.


Hello everyone! I have two "girls" that I absolutely adore. Hope the photo comes through.
Lily is the American Bull dog, blue eyed, deaf, sweet and almost 4 years old. I've had her since she was about 6 months old, rescued from side of freeway, very tramatized, hurt bady, starving, extremely shy and nervous for 6 months after that, now, happy, confident and loving, still doesn't play with many other dogs, she prefers to chase shadows of birds, butterflys, a laser light, etc.
Emma, the german shepard mix, was adopted from Humane Society when she was about 6 months old, she's going on 2 years old now. She is so smart, learns quickly, agile, loving and so eager to please. She is very dominant and has needed a firm hand and some work. She still plays a little rough at the dog park, but she has learned and is doing better. She does not back down, very sure of herself, very smart.
The two dogs have lived together and played together for the past year with no problems, they were buddies. Now, Emma is trying to dominate and Lily is not having it, they fought, horrifying for me, I had to break it up, not easy, Lily was hurt and needed stiches, she's Ok now. Kept them apart then tried to re- introduce them at the dog park, neutral territory right? No way, Emma put her muzzle over Lily's shoulder and Lily went off and went after her again.
Fortunately I had help and friends around that time and we prevented any damage. Now, I am keeping them apart completely, separate walks, etc. etc.
Any ideas on whether I may ever be able to put them back together? Training, muzzles, ??????
I appreciate any and all advice.
Thanks!
Attached Images

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Welcome to the forum ! Seeing as how you have two females and one is from a humane society I am assuming she is spayed? Is your AM. bulldog spayed? I know what is done is done but I would have adopted a male dog from the pound instead of another female. Males, females generally get along much better than two boys or two girls. Anyways, you may want to get yourself a reputable trainer who can work with just you and your two girls together. It sounds as though they are starting to try and establish a pecking order in the house and once they figure that out they maybe fine. But if it is getting to aggressive and ugly then I would get some professional help. It seems as if Emma would be about 1 year to 1 and a half years old now? So her maturing maybe the cause of her changing ways? I'm also thinking that maybe Emma senses Lily's handicaps and thinks she can pick on her. Just a thought but I'll leave it up to some of the others who are far more experienced on Chaz that maybe able to give you better advice. Good luck to you and if you have pics please post them . Would love to see your babies.

 

[sjoh4]

Thanks

Thank you so much for answering. Yes, both dogs are spayed and I realize now that an opposite sex dog would have been better.... unfortunately my daughter and I both fell in love with this female, Emma. I had never had two dogs together before, only one at a time, so I didn't think it would be a problem since Emma was still a puppy.
I think that you are right about Emma maturing and maybe she does realize Lily's handicap. Lily, however has gained so much confidence that she doesn't see it that way!
I am just heartbroken over the situation, however I cannot allow Lily to get hurt.

I am trying to insert photo here, but I don't seem to be able to do that.
You can see them in the New Member section, it let me insert it there.
Thanks again!

 

[dr2little]

I completely agree with Red_ACD. There are a number of things that appear to be happening. First of course the same sex dynamic, while it can work in many instances, often it can be very difficult to have 2 confident females living together peacefully. Secondly, Lily's minor disability. This may or may not have an impact but if is going to have an effect on the relationship, now's the time that you will usually start to see it, as Emma reaches maturity.
This is unfortunately not something that anyone can help you with without being able to observe body language of both dogs as well as seeing the environment and the family dynamic where the dogs live. I deal with dog/dog aggression quite a bit and I strongly recommend that you find professional help. I can find someone for you if you PM me your location. It is imperative that you hire someone who is educated and experienced with this specific situation. Most dog trainers are not used to dealing with something this serious.

 

[Groch]

I have seen your pictures on the new members forum. They both look like very beautiful dogs.

They also look like powerful dogs, and in reading up on American Bulldogs I see that is the case.

Your dogs may be very very good dogs, but they are also strong enough to really hurt each other, or someone else if they get in the way.

Please take the advice given here and get professional advice ASAP. DR2Little is a legend around here and I am sure she can find the right person in your area.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

DR2Little is a legend around here and I am sure she can find the right person in your area.

That is a great way to put it! :hail: Doc, you're a legend!

I hope that Doc and others are able to help you.

I just wanted to say that I have two males and while we may have lucked out with their temperaments, I wouldn't have traded either for the world. Things can be worked out. You just have to be willing to put forth the effort. Good luck to the OP!

 

[sjoh4]

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it very much. Yes, both of my dogs are very strong and could cause major damage to each other, or me ( not on purpose) Lily has delicate skin and she really got torn up in that fight. Emma got one wound on her leg, minor scratches, but it could have gotton worse, this is why I am so afraid. I committed myself to both of these dogs and if there is any way I can work this out I am determined to do so.
Dr2little, I would be glad for any referrals, I am poor, but perhaps I could make some arrangements, I truly want to keep both dogs.
I live in San Diego, Ca 92107. Can you reccomend anyone here?
Thank you all so much.

 

[dr2little]

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it very much. Yes, both of my dogs are very strong and could cause major damage to each other, or me ( not on purpose) Lily has delicate skin and she really got torn up in that fight. Emma got one wound on her leg, minor scratches, but it could have gotton worse, this is why I am so afraid. I committed myself to both of these dogs and if there is any way I can work this out I am determined to do so.
Dr2little, I would be glad for any referrals, I am poor, but perhaps I could make some arrangements, I truly want to keep both dogs.
I live in San Diego, Ca 92107. Can you reccomend anyone here?
Thank you all so much.

I'll start searching right away.

 

[dr2little]

Check your PM box sjoh4 - and let me know how it goes or if there's anything else I can do....GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[Spiritus]

I hate to be the doomsayer in this, but my experience with bitch aggression, and the research I have done tells me that once bitch aggression starts, it can only be managed, not stopped. By managed, I mean ensuring that the girls never get together - ever.

Bitch aggression is unique from other types of dog aggression. There is usually no reason behind it. And when bitches fight, they do fight to kill, whereas males usually fight to determine who's stronger and typically infilict little damage (unless one is downright dog aggressive or there is a bitch in season around).

I have lived with two bitch-aggressive girls. One came to join my family and show life, and ended up going back to her breeder because of her (unknown to me when I brought her in) bitch aggression. The other was a dog that came to me to be assessed and placed if she was suitable for placement. It turned out she was very place-able - in a home without another bitch. That is where she has been for two years now and is doing wonderfully!

A behaviorist might be able to help you, but I ask that you don't get your hopes up. As you know, you have two very strong dogs who are very capable of seriously hurting themselves and you. Breaking up a dog fight is very dangerous for people to do. You do risk being turned on and bit. In the frenzy of a dog-fight, all they know is something is grabbing at them, and they must protect that particular body part that is being touched, and they are indeed in a frenzy at that point, and do not know that it is human hands trying to pull them apart.

Until you can find help, keep these girls separated. absolutely zero access to each other - do NOT relax on that rule. No re-introductions on neutral ground, etc. This is a classic sign of bitch aggression, which is an anomoly of it's own, and does not follow the general rules for dealing with basic aggression.

 

[sjoh4]

Keeping the girls apart

This is just what I fear most, during the fight, I really had the strong feeling that they were fighting to kill and it was frenzied to be sure. It's nothing short of a miracle that I was able to get them apart and not get too badly hurt myself, just incidental scrapes and scratches, no one tried to bite me, however, I am not sure we'd all be so lucky again. I got them together on neutral ground at the dog park mostly because all my dog park friends thought I should, I made sure there were plenty of strong willing friends to help with them if they did try to fight. I won't try that again and now my dog park buddies know for sure and believe me instead of thinking I was exaggerating.
I do intend to keep them apart, totally. It is a burden always being worried that I will make a mistake. I live in a one bedroom apartment, it's large and each dog has enough space, larger than a crate would be.... so they are Ok for now, but I stress over letting something slip.... I do not intend to put them together again.
I realize that I may have to find another home for Emma, as much as it breaks my heart, but I'd like to investigate all possiblilties first.
Thank you for your notes, I had never heard of bitch agression before. Emma is very dominant at the dog park also, although there are a few dogs, all male, that she submits to. She is rough with her play also, but just nips, doesn't try to bite, I have been working with her not to even nip and she is learning fast, I think she has a lot of herding instints,she goes for the feet a lot.
Anyway, this is a wonderful forum I am glad that I found this, it helps just to be able to talk about this with other dog people. Thanks again