At my wit's end.

Hello all.

First let me introduce myself. My name's Peter. I live in Seattle and my wife and I are 95% happy owners of two 5 1/2 month old King Charles Cavalier Spaniels (see my avatar). Their names are Murphy and Norma. Very sweet little guys.

I bet you can guess what this thread will be about (it's about that last 5% of ownership joy I'm missing!). I have read and read and read about potty training techniques, have implemented them to the best of our ability, and nothing seems to be working. They'll sometimes go without accidents for 3 days, other times they will go in the house 4 times in one day. No pattern whatsoever.

We got the pups at 4 months old and therefore have owned them for a month and a half. Immediately we began with the crate training. These guys are littermates, so I believe we've taken the necessary precautions to avoid littermate syndrome (separating them for obedience training, keep them in separate areas during the day, etc). We will continue separating them until they grow up enough and they have developed their independence.

They are wonderful dogs. Don't bark much, love being handled and seem truly start struck by us. They just sit and stare at us like we're rock stars!

But they are not taking to potty training. Here's our situation. We live in downtown Seattle in a condo on the 4th floor. We always either have the dogs in their kennels, or our eyes are on them so that we can correct bad behavior (such as going potty in our condo). We never punish them when they have an accident, but we yell "no" and immediately pick them up and take them out.

They are really good at going potty when we take them to their potty spot outside. They don't hesitate at all. The pop a squat right then and there and do their business. It seems like they know that their potty spot is a place they should go potty. What they don't seem to know is that they SHOULDN'T go inside. Since we don't punish them, I don't know how else to communicate to them that they should never go potty in the house...

They are at the age when they can hold their bladders for 5-6 hours (so the experts say). So we leave them in their crates for the first 4 hours of the day, I come home during lunch and take them out to go to the bathroom and to get some exercise. They're back in their kennels for another 3.5 hrs until when my wife gets home and takes them out immediately for more eliminating fun and exercise.

Like I said, they are either being actively monitored, or they in their crates. They sleep the whole night through just fine, and never eliminate in their beds. They are more accurate than my alarm clock; at 6am everyday, they begin to cry so I take them out immediately.

We have enzymatic floor cleaner and use it religiously. They never return to the same spots. It could be on the couch, on our down comforter, on the carpet, on the hardwood floors, in the bathroom, whenever and where ever. We keep them to a strict feeding and potty schedule. We take them out every 1 1/2 hrs even though we know they should be able hold it much longer.

Take today for example. We took them out, they both did #1's and #2's. Brought them back in, and Norma peed on the couch within 20 minutes of being back inside. Makes no sense at all. They aren't drinking unreasonable amounts of water... It boggles my mind how much excrement these little guys produce everyday.

I'm getting EXTREMELY discouraged. I'm doing everything the books and websites say to do. Most people say they get their dogs housebroken in 1-3 weeks. We're going on a month and a half!!!

Please help!! We love these dogs so much, and they have no other behavioral problems at all. They're taking to obedience training well, they're socializing well, etc.

More relevent info:

-Our first month, we put them in separate areas with their crates open, a water bowl, and a pee pad and very little other space to go. They only hit the target about half of the time, and most of the times they would tear the pee pads to shreds (either before or after they eliminated on it).

-We knew they should be able to hold it long enough during the day (4 hrs max), so we decided to keep them in their crates with the doors shut during the day with some toys (stuff kongs, other chew toys) and some water. We were also worried that we were sending them mixed messages by allowing them to pee in the condo (on the pee pads) on the one hand, but expecting them to go outside on the other hand. So we thought we'd make that message more clear by not providing them the opportunity to go inside at all.

-I'm concerned that they don't associate the "front door" (our condo entrance) with going outside to go potty because we have to either go down the elevator 4 floors, or down the stairs. They don't exhibit any signs that they need to go (hovering by the door, circling, sniffing, nothing). One second they're running around playing with each other, the next millisecond they're peeing.

-They try to pee in the hallways, stair cases, and elevators when I walk them out probably half of the time. I'm convinced that pretty soon I'm gonna get evicted by my homeowners association. We used to carry them out, but were worried that carrying them was making it more difficult for them to associate potty time with going out the door, downstairs, and outside on their own.

-They got spayed/neutered a week ago. It really does not appear to have had any impact on their potty habits at all (they go in the house just as much as they did before).

I'm very sorry for the long post, but I want to save you guys time trying to ask me what I do and don't do so we can try and get to the bottom of this.

I'm on the verge of doing a search for some kind of boarding school for these guys to get them trained because we are exhausted to our very cores trying to get through this phase and we're not ready to give up on them because we are so attached.

Thanks very very much for any insight you can provide. Hopefully the only answer you guys are able to give is "just give it more time, you're doing everything right". But after a month and a half, I can't understand why it is showing no signs of working at all.

Peter

Frustrating, isn't it? I know just how you feel, my friend's year old Setter still hasn't gotten housebreaking down quite yet.

Don't give up hope yet! They are still very young babies and spaniels at that. For some reason, it seems that spaniel bladders mature slower than what everyone thinks they should.

Teaching them about pee pads probably hasn't helped your situation, but it's not an irreversable mistake.

Boarding school, while perhaps effective for other obedience training, is flat-out useless for potty training, because they're not learning it at their house. It's something that takes time and effort.

You seem to be doing everything right, it's just going to take more time. Maybe take them out even more often for a little bit and doubly reinforce just how awesome it is that they're going outside!!

Your kids are adorable, by the way! I almost got a Cav, but then I had my foster return to me and that put me at my pet limit. I'd still like to have one one day.

It sounds to me like you're doing things right and that it will just take more time. Some dogs learn slower than others. Have they been checked for UTIs so that isn't part of what's causing this?

I too think you should start taking them out even more often while they're learning and always keep your eye on them when inside (which I'm thinking you already do). When they go outside, make sure to food reward them with something they're crazy about every single time, preferably something they only get for this purpose. Maybe hanging a bell by the door and ring the bell every time you go out with them would help too, I've heard some people have had success with that method.

Great looking cute cavs you have btw. Seeing those two makes me want to get my second cavalier already even though mine is not even a year old yet.

Being on the 4th floor must get old !!! You are doing the right thing and I hope they get the picture soon !!!

My current dog took awhile to learn, and it was frustrating....but it did eventually work!!

Even after he seemed to figure things out, he would do great during the day, but revert to going in the house in the evenings. I was at home alot during the day, and when I wasn't, he was crated. Either way, he was fine, but evenings were still a problem. I couldn't figure it out expect that he was excited with the household activity and everyone being home, and he was more tired.

At any rate, in the evenings, I had to move his time of going outside much closer together. Even though he could hold it 3 hours during the day, in the evenings, I was taking him out every 30 minutes. After a couple of weeks of no accidents, I upped the time to every 45 minutes. Then an hour, and so on. At some point, he just started asking when he wanted to go out.

Even when things went well for a couple of months, we found out whenever our daughter and her husband came over (and he LOVES them, especially him.....and the SIL plays furiously with him) that he would almost always have an accident then!!

Now, he can have the visitors and still no accidents.

So, yours have made some TINY advances. They'll continue to make more, but you might have to take them out even more frequently, alot more frequently, until they do. It's tiresome, but I'll bet if you really work at getting them out more, and doing everything else you're doing, in a month or two you'll really see a huge difference.

I agree, starting them with pee pads has taught them that it is ok to go inside and it is now going to longer and more dedication on your part.
Also, where did you get them from? Housetraining a pup can be be made much harder, if the pup was raised with papers, raised in dirty conditions from the breeders etc. As a breeder, I start housetraining pups as soon as momma doesn't clean up after them anymore, which usually starts around 4 - 5 wks old.
I always carry pups outside, so they don't have the chance to go anywhere else, especially upon waking up or after eating.

I have only had problems with one maternal line, in regards to housetraining and it was the females. I purchased momma as a pup and had problems, turns out her dam was the same (found out much too late) and her female pups are the same. That along with other reasons, I culled the line.

I still carry my 8 month old cocker outside if he's been crated fairly long. I'd rather not risk an oops if he's close to his holding point. He came to me squatting as soon as he stepped on grass. He regressed at 6 months though, and I had to be 10x as diligent watching him.

I think you are doing everything right. It's just going to take time.

I set a timer...every thirty minutes to start...until i get a feeling of what their urination pattern is. THen i can stretch that time out. I make sure to hussle them out the door AS SOON as they wake up, right after they eat, or shortly after they drink alot...or play alot..gets things moving ya know? No matter how old the dog is, if there are accidents, you start ALL OVER as you would with a wee baby. I would rather do that for a couple days then to fight accidents for a year!:yikes: While i am doing this the dog must stay in the same room with me where i have one eye on them at all times.Baby gates, or a leash...block off all places they can sneak out of your view. I do not scold for accidents, but praise to the heavens for successes. make sure to treat all spots..and even then i dont' know short of bleach if you can get it all. THose spots say go here...as much as you are saying go out there.

Wow, thank you all so much for the responses (especially cuz I'm the new guy and wrote a really long post in a moment of intense frustration).

Well, in a way your responses are reassuring and also a little discouraging. I guess I was naiive in assuming that if I did things right (well, I guess the pee pad thing was a mistake so let's call it "mostly right"), they would be potty trained by now.

Before I got married about a year and a half ago, I lived in a house with a bunch of college buddies. One of them thought it would be a good idea to buy a lab puppy. It wasn't cuter than my pups, but it was close!!! They literally did nothing to teach it to go outside. They didn't kennel train him or anything. He seriously just figured it out himself. He's a super mellow and obedient fella. So maybe that's not a fair comparison cuz it must be some kind of fluke!!

We're hard workers so we can deal with this. I just needed some kind of reassurance that we're doing things properly and that they'll eventuall get it. As a human, it's hard for me to understand how they learn that they shouldn't go in the house. I can understand how they learn that going outside is a great option, but how do you teach them that it's the ONLY option? Everyone says that punishing the pups for accidents is out of the question because it's not only cruel but they don't understand the cause and effect. From the mass of information in books, online, and from you kind folks, it seems that the repetition and rewards for going outside eventually causes them to realize that they should only go outside...

Here are some pics, cuz it's hard for me to resist. Most of them are from the first week we had them (at about 4 months old), so they're a bit bigger now. Their harnesses are too big in some of the pics because we bought them before we got the pups. So we have ones that fit them better now. Norma Jean (after marilyn monroe with the marking on her lip) is in the red harness, Murphy is in either the black or the blue harness. Murphy is 2+ lbs bigger than his sister, who was the runt of the litter.

Be still my heart! I just adore Cavaliers!

This is what we're here for...information, sharing successes, reassurance...raising two puppies at once is a huge ordeal, especially when it comes to housetraining.

Wow, this forum is really active!

One thing I didn't mention. They are going in for a general checkup and to make sure they're healing from their surgeries properly tomorrow. So I will most definitely talk to the vet about potty training and ask him/her to check for any medical issues that could be related. Although it sounds like their behavior is normal.

Like Smkie, I set a time for 30 minutes, too, and then when things were going very well, upped it by 15 minutes.

Spanky got to the point that when the timer went off, he headed to the door to go potty.

Everyone has given you really great advice and told you to give it more time so I don't have advice to offer however I must say... those are ADORABLE pups. You're doing the right thing... sure the pee pads weren't a plus, but this is a learning experience for both you and the pups. Definitely not irreversable as was already stated. Welcome to the forum by the way. I sure hope you'll decide to stick around. Maybe your wife will sign up too. Now... I demand more pictures...

More pics, coming right up! Hopefully my wife won't mind that I'm posting pics of her!!! lol

I can't believe they can sleep in this position:



Norma cocks her head everytime you make a funny noise to get her attention:



They seem to sleep better on a lap:

they are adorable!!

oh goodness... I just can't get over how adorable they are... so ummm... when can I come over and play with them? haha

Your family is soooooo beautiful!

The pups have both you and your wife wrapped around their paws, don't they?

OMG I almost melted when I saw them, they are just so sweet I love the little one with the red on her lip, she looks like she's got so much pep! But yeah you've gotten great advice, it just takes time. My Aun't Shih-Tzu took about a year before she was housebroken but then again she was never praised for going out just hit for going inside But small dogs tend to take a while longer than large breeds. You know your stuff though so keep at it!

Yeah, it's really funny. Norma is very spunky when she's comfortable with the people and dogs she's around. She's definitely the trouble-maker. But when she unsure, she won't leave your lap. She has a lot more natural fear than Murphy. Murphy is basically unphased by anything. He loves to walk around and explore. Their different personalities are pretty darn adorable.

I just ran into my neighbor who has a 4-5 month old mini schnauzer. While I was talking to her, she mentioned that she is using puppy litter and LOVES it. They can live their puppy in an area gated off with her crate open and the puppy litter, and she uses it.

Now, this might be a terrible idea. I don't know. Someone else would know of the pitfalls, possibly. I thought it might be an option for someone who lives in a hi-rise if it would make life easier than having to take them to out. I guess it might be worth it if you were living there longterm, and you would continue to use this rather than taking them out several times a day??

Just thought I would throw that out there, but, like I said, it might not work for your purposes.

My neighbor has a yard, so I don't know if she plans to break her from the litter eventually or not. She started it because she had been very sick right after they got her, and they didn't want to take her outside.