I have never needed a crate for any dog and if they work for you fine, but the are not necessary if you have a safe room. Not using one does not make you a bad owner, there are different methods. I have always taken one room and removed everything chokeable, tangle proof, cord proof, and provided things that will keep the pup entertained while i am gone. I am also a huge advocate for having a doggy sitter.
how would you like to be put in a crate??? please educate me
- Thread starter puppylover2007
- Start date
i want to clarify....
i was not trying to call all people who do not use crates irresponsible, but the OP made it clear that he/she was irresponsible and closed minded about the subject. certanly there are people who do not crate who have lovely well mannered dogs. i apologize for my posts looking like i was lumping all noncraters together. and, if a crate is not for you, fine but do not tell me that it is cruel to crate my dogs, like the OP did, or that you think dogs barking all the livelong day is music to your ears.
by the by i have never had someone who was a nocrater go back to nocrating once tehy tried crate training. they may use the crate less as the dog matures and learns therules, but they never give it up. its a good tool for many dif things.
sheepjoke
i was not trying to call all people who do not use crates irresponsible, but the OP made it clear that he/she was irresponsible and closed minded about the subject. certanly there are people who do not crate who have lovely well mannered dogs. i apologize for my posts looking like i was lumping all noncraters together. and, if a crate is not for you, fine but do not tell me that it is cruel to crate my dogs, like the OP did, or that you think dogs barking all the livelong day is music to your ears.
by the by i have never had someone who was a nocrater go back to nocrating once tehy tried crate training. they may use the crate less as the dog matures and learns therules, but they never give it up. its a good tool for many dif things.
sheepjoke
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I wish it were not a tool that could be abused. Those people that leave their dog in it during the day while they are at work break my heart. Or expect a puppy to go more then a proper amount of time because it is easier to stick him in the box then it is to take him out. A crate if you use it right is something i have heard people claim is very effective. AT the same time, in 20 years i have never needed one. THere is both sides to every story. And abuse on both sides too.
I wish i had the energy to set up a senior watch program. I have always been fortunate to have a "sitter" for my dogs when i had to leave. I would think especially in this day and age when getting by on social security is almost impossible, that a person could set up a senior puppy sit and pay with a grocery card or a return the favor of picking up supplies or transportation or yard work. I really believe it could be done and it would be a win win. A lot of seniors cannot afford to have a pet but need the companionship. Every dog needs a grammy.
I wish i had the energy to set up a senior watch program. I have always been fortunate to have a "sitter" for my dogs when i had to leave. I would think especially in this day and age when getting by on social security is almost impossible, that a person could set up a senior puppy sit and pay with a grocery card or a return the favor of picking up supplies or transportation or yard work. I really believe it could be done and it would be a win win. A lot of seniors cannot afford to have a pet but need the companionship. Every dog needs a grammy.
Abuse can come no matter what way you contain a dog. (Sound like a familiar thread?)
Crates are useful and not cruel if used properly. I'd much rather have my dog crated in the house for a while than out in the back yard where they're risking being attacked by coyotes. That is much more 'cruel' in my opinion than containing a dog in a crate.
As for our crating procedures, we don't use them much anymore as the dogs are very reliable. When we were going to be gone, we'd use a pen instead of a crate to keep the puppy contained and out of harm. The old shelties just sleep and get into no trouble. The papillons I'm sure do sleep most of the time. We make a bed in the floor for them out of their sheets and leave some toys out. All doors are closed to the bedrooms and upstairs, etc. All flower arrangements and things they could chew on are also put up. None of them sleep in their crates either anymore. Beau was crated for his first two years or so while we were gone. Rose was crated most the time until very recently. We use the crates for traveling and when we have people over that need the dogs out of the way- like repairmen or whatever.
So yes, useful tool. Not cruel in the least if used properly. Then again my dogs aren't crated much at all- probably only a couple times a month for a short period of time. They're nice to have around, though.
Crates are useful and not cruel if used properly. I'd much rather have my dog crated in the house for a while than out in the back yard where they're risking being attacked by coyotes. That is much more 'cruel' in my opinion than containing a dog in a crate.
As for our crating procedures, we don't use them much anymore as the dogs are very reliable. When we were going to be gone, we'd use a pen instead of a crate to keep the puppy contained and out of harm. The old shelties just sleep and get into no trouble. The papillons I'm sure do sleep most of the time. We make a bed in the floor for them out of their sheets and leave some toys out. All doors are closed to the bedrooms and upstairs, etc. All flower arrangements and things they could chew on are also put up. None of them sleep in their crates either anymore. Beau was crated for his first two years or so while we were gone. Rose was crated most the time until very recently. We use the crates for traveling and when we have people over that need the dogs out of the way- like repairmen or whatever.
So yes, useful tool. Not cruel in the least if used properly. Then again my dogs aren't crated much at all- probably only a couple times a month for a short period of time. They're nice to have around, though.
I remember the last time we had a big crate thread, there was a member who told us they had an EMPTY room for their dog, because that was the only way to make it completely safe...
and the dog still chewed into the wall, and then chomped on an electric line inside the wall.
Not every dog is going to do this, obviously, but seriously, with some dogs... they will invent ways to make things dangerous that for 99% of "other dogs" are perfectly safe. =P
and the dog still chewed into the wall, and then chomped on an electric line inside the wall.
Not every dog is going to do this, obviously, but seriously, with some dogs... they will invent ways to make things dangerous that for 99% of "other dogs" are perfectly safe. =P
maybe your dogs sleep that long but mine sure the he... don't. THe people behind me crate their german shepard puppy during the day and you ought to hear that dog bawl. IMO puppies are active, they need to stretch and roll, and bounce and flop, they need to tug and stretch their growing muscles, and i can't see how anyone expects them to be able to do that in a cage. It is bad enough that we expect them to be alone, talk about against canine nature, they should be with siblings and parents and uncles to tug tails, and learn manners. So humans expect them to live singularly and sit in a freaking box all day. To make it easier on them, and save their posessions. What about mental stimulus ? . Crating for 8 hours during the day IMO is beyond abuse. If it comes down to that, IMO a person should rehome. Their not in the position to raise a puppy at that time in their lives.Victor would have completely lost his mind if he was crated that long. Fact is if he was crated at all.
How in the world can you expect a puppy to hold it that long too!!!!!
No one should have to sit in a box in their own stink or have to hold their bowels and urine like that either. I don't know a human that could do it.
How in the world can you expect a puppy to hold it that long too!!!!!
No one should have to sit in a box in their own stink or have to hold their bowels and urine like that either. I don't know a human that could do it.Uh...didnt I say "NOT PUPPIES"? A puppy certainly should not be locked in a crate for 8 hours....4 hours maximum at a time. I prefer for people to use an exercise pen with an OPEN crate inside, if they have to leave the puppy more than 4 hours. Papers on the floor of the exercise pen, and water available.
BTW, puppies only produce the growth hormone during sleep. They are active in bursts, but sleep way more than they play, or should.
edited to add: my puppies and dogs NEVER "sit in their own stink". this is an ignorant comment. the idea is that dogs DO NOT POTTY IN THEIR DEN...so allowing a puppy to mess its crate goes against the basices of crate training.
you are putting people emotions and thoughs into dogs, and as has been said a million times, dogs are not human, humans are not dogs. to treat a dog like a human is just as cruel as to treat a human like a dog, IMO.
sheepjoke
BTW, puppies only produce the growth hormone during sleep. They are active in bursts, but sleep way more than they play, or should.
edited to add: my puppies and dogs NEVER "sit in their own stink". this is an ignorant comment. the idea is that dogs DO NOT POTTY IN THEIR DEN...so allowing a puppy to mess its crate goes against the basices of crate training.
you are putting people emotions and thoughs into dogs, and as has been said a million times, dogs are not human, humans are not dogs. to treat a dog like a human is just as cruel as to treat a human like a dog, IMO.
sheepjoke
I would hope that by the time a dog is an adult he would know how to behave in the house. What do you do until he reaches adulthood? My dogs are more human then most the humans i know. I seriously doubt anyone that knows me, would disagree, nor would they lol say that i am putting emotions and ideas into my head that are not there.
I stand with my post, 8, 9 hours counting road time for some people for any dog of any age is postively abuse.
Causes cage crazyiness and total boredom.
As to the dog that tore up the room, maybe that was because it was EMPTY and they were gone tooooo long. I know for a fact that dogs are wonderful waiters, but they too have their limits. IF a dog is that destructive, he is probably extremely intelligent. THey are almost always the biggest pains in the arse, and well worth the extra work it takes to keep them active and always challenged. THat dog should have had a sitter! I am certain that i talked to my neighborhood or advertised, screened heavily, i could find a senior sitter. BUt people would rather crate all day, or leave outside alone, then to make that kind of effort. I have puppysat in the past. My friend Kelly did for a teenager in her neighborhood until school was out. You take on a baby you should accept the fact that is what it is and adjust your life accordingly. IF you can't it isn't time for a baby animal in your home!
I stand with my post, 8, 9 hours counting road time for some people for any dog of any age is postively abuse.
Causes cage crazyiness and total boredom.
As to the dog that tore up the room, maybe that was because it was EMPTY and they were gone tooooo long. I know for a fact that dogs are wonderful waiters, but they too have their limits. IF a dog is that destructive, he is probably extremely intelligent. THey are almost always the biggest pains in the arse, and well worth the extra work it takes to keep them active and always challenged. THat dog should have had a sitter! I am certain that i talked to my neighborhood or advertised, screened heavily, i could find a senior sitter. BUt people would rather crate all day, or leave outside alone, then to make that kind of effort. I have puppysat in the past. My friend Kelly did for a teenager in her neighborhood until school was out. You take on a baby you should accept the fact that is what it is and adjust your life accordingly. IF you can't it isn't time for a baby animal in your home!
Dogs sleep all day long when their owners are gone because there's nothing else stimulating going on. Dogs don't like to be alone for long periods. I think to leave a puppy in a crate with very little stimulation for more than about 4 hours is too much without a good, long break with lots of exercise and fun. 8 or 10 hours during the day is way too long to ask a puppy to hold his bladder and bowels and to be shut away all by himself. It is heart breaking to me too.
Way back when.....there weren't these crates that they have now. I never used them either. But since I have used them, I wouldn't go back. They are great for potty training and keeping a puppy safe when unsupervised. Some puppies chew on cabinets, vinyl flooring, sheet rock or door jams when locked in a bathroom. Those things can be harmful, so depending on how exhuberant a puppy is, a locked safe room may not prove to be very safe. A bathroom is usually big enough that the puppy, if he has to relieve himself, will find a corner to do it in. That sends the message that going inside is OK. I would think it would harder and slower to train a pup to go outside. However, if the pup is let out enough, he won't need to go in the room. Anyhow, that's why I use crates now with puppies. My adult dogs do not need to be locked up in a crate, pen or small room anymore, as they're house broken and don't get into things they shouldn't. But one little crate is open if the Chi's want to sleep in it.
Way back when.....there weren't these crates that they have now. I never used them either. But since I have used them, I wouldn't go back. They are great for potty training and keeping a puppy safe when unsupervised. Some puppies chew on cabinets, vinyl flooring, sheet rock or door jams when locked in a bathroom. Those things can be harmful, so depending on how exhuberant a puppy is, a locked safe room may not prove to be very safe. A bathroom is usually big enough that the puppy, if he has to relieve himself, will find a corner to do it in. That sends the message that going inside is OK. I would think it would harder and slower to train a pup to go outside. However, if the pup is let out enough, he won't need to go in the room. Anyhow, that's why I use crates now with puppies. My adult dogs do not need to be locked up in a crate, pen or small room anymore, as they're house broken and don't get into things they shouldn't. But one little crate is open if the Chi's want to sleep in it.
the only cage crazy dogs ive known live in puppy mills or were crazy to begin with.
some dogs are never safe in a house loose, some are i dont see any reason to let your dog run loose if you are on an errand, there is no benefit to this. and dogs mature at different rates i had a dog eat a couch and a hole in my carpet when she was left uncrated at five years old and 'grown'. My fault. the dog was trained, but she was a DOG and did a dog thing. i learned a lesson....crating is the best thing for my dogs and my house and me. it ckeeps them safe and secure and out of trouble.
you think crating is cruel, i think treating dogs like people is cruel and makes them insane. but what do i know, ive only been training/breeding/showing/rehabbing dogs for....what....30 years. roundabout there.
sheepjoke
some dogs are never safe in a house loose, some are i dont see any reason to let your dog run loose if you are on an errand, there is no benefit to this. and dogs mature at different rates i had a dog eat a couch and a hole in my carpet when she was left uncrated at five years old and 'grown'. My fault. the dog was trained, but she was a DOG and did a dog thing. i learned a lesson....crating is the best thing for my dogs and my house and me. it ckeeps them safe and secure and out of trouble.
you think crating is cruel, i think treating dogs like people is cruel and makes them insane. but what do i know, ive only been training/breeding/showing/rehabbing dogs for....what....30 years. roundabout there.
sheepjoke
You would hope, but that is not always the case. Conrad can not, will not, ever be able to be home alone uncrated. It's not for my convenience, because it would in fact be much more convenient for me to not have to crate him. Crates are expensive and when people come to house-sit there are all these complicated instructions. I'd love to just be able to leave him and not have him have a panic attack. That would be great. That would mean I have a mentally sound dog, and nothing would make me happier than having a dog without a mental illness.
Believe me when I say that we tried everything before we tried crate-training with him, and nothing worked. Medication did not work (two different kinds tried), keeping him outside in a kennel run did not work (he injured himself repeatedly on the fence in his escape attempts), exercising him tremendous amounts did not work (at the time we lived on several beach-front acres--lack of exercise was never this dog's issue), extreme dog-proofing of the house only went so far because his main goal was to get out of the house and no floor, window or door was safe from his attempts.
For people who've never had to deal with a dog with such extreme issues that crating is necessary into adulthood, congratulations. We can't all be so lucky.
I know the haters will never believe me, but Conrad's crate is his touchstone. It's his security blanket. He needs it. When I come home after work and let him out, he's calm, relaxed, well rested, happy to see me, ready for our evening together. Before we crate-trained him, when I'd come home he would be in a panic, whining, crying, peeing on himself, exhausted (and I know it's taboo to mention issues of personal preference, but my house would also be a pile of rubble). I have to go to work and so does my husband, not doing so is not an option. The options for Conrad are live with us and be crated during the days, or rehome him with a shut-in who never ever ever leaves home.
Believe me when I say that we tried everything before we tried crate-training with him, and nothing worked. Medication did not work (two different kinds tried), keeping him outside in a kennel run did not work (he injured himself repeatedly on the fence in his escape attempts), exercising him tremendous amounts did not work (at the time we lived on several beach-front acres--lack of exercise was never this dog's issue), extreme dog-proofing of the house only went so far because his main goal was to get out of the house and no floor, window or door was safe from his attempts.
For people who've never had to deal with a dog with such extreme issues that crating is necessary into adulthood, congratulations. We can't all be so lucky.
I know the haters will never believe me, but Conrad's crate is his touchstone. It's his security blanket. He needs it. When I come home after work and let him out, he's calm, relaxed, well rested, happy to see me, ready for our evening together. Before we crate-trained him, when I'd come home he would be in a panic, whining, crying, peeing on himself, exhausted (and I know it's taboo to mention issues of personal preference, but my house would also be a pile of rubble). I have to go to work and so does my husband, not doing so is not an option. The options for Conrad are live with us and be crated during the days, or rehome him with a shut-in who never ever ever leaves home.
for real. i don't know what i would have done if luce hadn't been crate trained before her knee surgery. i read a group that's all people with dogs with orthopedic problems, many of them cruciate surgeries, and there are lots of people scrambling to contain a non-crate-trained dog post-operatively.
luce wasn't happy about being crated except for trips out to potty for two weeks, including at night, but she tolerated it. it made my life a whole lot easier and her life a whole lot less stressful. i didn't need to sedate her at all to keep her quiet so that her leg could heal.
luce wasn't happy about being crated except for trips out to potty for two weeks, including at night, but she tolerated it. it made my life a whole lot easier and her life a whole lot less stressful. i didn't need to sedate her at all to keep her quiet so that her leg could heal.
Well, like everything else in life, there are exceptions. I, for one was talking about puppies or adult dogs in general. There might always be extenuating circumstances. But for most developing puppies, if there are no other dogs in the house, they don't like to be alone without their family for hours upon hours. And being unstimulated and closed in a little box for an excessive amount of time with nothing to do is usually not good for a dog...most dogs. IMO. Some adult dogs can't be left lose for various other reasons too. If a dog feels truly more secure in there, is afraid of things or like you describe your dog, sure.....that may be different.
Exactly. I agree Smkie. Bored, stressed, undertrained....something is out of balance. I think people forget how extremely strongly associated dogs are with their people. Its hard-wired into them to crave having their family around. They're insecure, feel vulnerable when all by themselves, to various degrees.
nah, shes a dog, thats what happened. she was bored that day, and smart, so she thought eating the carpet might be fun. The couch...well, it had a pig ear under it, unbenknownst to me. but, being a dog, she went to get it. probably one of the best trained most well adjusted dogs you would ever meet, a therapy dog for children, champion show dog, a great companion.
edited to add: also was on the cover of our newspaper in obedience competition at a dog show. not quite undertrained, not stressed.
the reason: she's a dog. dogs do dog things.
sheepjoke
edited to add: also was on the cover of our newspaper in obedience competition at a dog show. not quite undertrained, not stressed.
the reason: she's a dog. dogs do dog things.
sheepjoke
I get told a high prey dog cannot learn to control himself, and yet everyday people expect their dogs, a pack animal by nature to do the most un-natural act of all. TO be alone all day. You have to train a dog to understand the wait. I have seen dogs wait for their owners until it would bring tears to your eyes and make your heart throb. One german shepard was brought in for boarding while his owner went through chemotherapy. He came to visit his dog regularly, always bringing a mc'donalds cheeseburger. THe man and his friend, would spend awhile in teh park behind the kennels, then the dog and hamburger would be put back in the run. THat dog carried that hamburger in his mouth for days until it crumbled apart. oh how he waited. The good news is the man got better and his dog got to go home. I have seen dogs wait until their hearts broke and the gave up on everything, for those dear owners that dump their dogs at boarding facilities, just shakes head in disbelief on that one. EVery time a car comes down the drive they hope. Tis the ultimate coward imo..anyway i have lost track of my point, so i hope i made it.
Did you not read the part where I said there are some dogs who will turn ANYTHING into a dangerous situation...?
How many people on here talk about their dogs tearing "indestructible" toys into shreds? Shreds that can be eaten and then turned into blockages?
And that's not boredom... that's a dog having fun destroying a toy under their owner's supervision.
What do you do in that situation?
THIS is the situation that owner was faced with. Her (or his, I really do not recall) dog would tear up anything and everything, so finally they resorted to simply clearing the room out. And that still didn't work.
I am lucky that Auggie doesn't destroy his "safe" toys, but that is why they are safe toys and that is why they go in the crate with him. But he has those safe toys, and that crate BECAUSE he has the capability to turn things I would never even dream are dangerous into a choking/blockage/poisoning hazard.
How many people on here talk about their dogs tearing "indestructible" toys into shreds? Shreds that can be eaten and then turned into blockages?
And that's not boredom... that's a dog having fun destroying a toy under their owner's supervision.
What do you do in that situation?
THIS is the situation that owner was faced with. Her (or his, I really do not recall) dog would tear up anything and everything, so finally they resorted to simply clearing the room out. And that still didn't work.
I am lucky that Auggie doesn't destroy his "safe" toys, but that is why they are safe toys and that is why they go in the crate with him. But he has those safe toys, and that crate BECAUSE he has the capability to turn things I would never even dream are dangerous into a choking/blockage/poisoning hazard.