What the kennel property was used for.

honestly, why is this still going on? Can't we be done with this?

This really is quite sad.... Watching this all unfold... Pack assumptions GALORE!

I can't believe there is actually people here that are going to defend someone who argues FOR puppymills!

I am yet to see this person who is arguing FOR puppymills.

I AM seeing a hell of a lot of people jumping in the the assumption pool 2 feet first.

I AM amazed at your powers of perception, I wish I could learn everything about someone over a few words on an internet forum.

Not THAT is skill.

Perhaps we should call you mystic meg?

Seriously... This is getting silly.

Because it's a safety precaution, not a way of life. Those dogs get to come out with the owner when the owner is home from work. Those dogs have a life outside of the cage. Just like babies and playpens. They're put in a playpen for safety....they don't LIVE in there.


And perhaps you should give folks more credit. This isn't a witch hunt. FK is being called out because of HER OWN WORDS and her own actions.

And yeah, I agree this is silly. You can't change stupid. Stupid is as stupid does. I'm not wasting my time on it anymore. I'm going to give that good ole ignore button the college try.

Good luck with your puppy farming, Adrienne. Hope it bites you in the pompous ass some day.

No - not all working dogs get to jump and play at the end of the day.

They are a commodity to a farmer. They are a piece of equipment. People on this forum have working dogs. Noone minds.

People on this forum own multiple dogs. Noone minds.

People on this forum breed dogs. Noone minds.

Seems if someone owns multiple dogs and breeds them... people mind. No matter whether you know ANYTHING about that operation or not.

THAT is called assumption.

What if someone breeds multiple dogs, breeds them and shows them at Crufts? What if they own multiple dogs, breed them, and they are all champions and better the breed in conformation and everything else?

I LOVE this new word I learnt on this here forum.

It goes like this:

But Dizzy.........what if they sell those puppies on a web like Nextdaypets?

What if they did - and they were hip scored, eye tested, had contracts and were champions?

It is silly, but a bit educational too. I can't begin to imagine how a person could justify mass breeding. But here we have just that. And questions are asked, and we can see how the reasoning is put together to justify profit. Hasn't swayed my opinion, nor changed my objective to do everything in my power to educate the public on the reason they shoud never "feed the puppymiller". I did read the posts tho, in all fairness if you are going to object to a person's way of life, shouldn't you listen to the reasons they have for living that way? Look at the situation from both sides? The good thing is that i am just as certain i am right as before and have not seen any proof that i am wrong. I have not been convinced that wire is good flooring, or that dogs of that multitude will be guaranteed emergency health care. I have read that some do not go outside ever. (shakes head on that one)
I have not seen any reason that a dirt floor doesnt' breed germs and pests. I have seen that man's best friend is considered "property". (shakes head on that one too)
Nope, didnt' change my perspective at all. I don't see good Dog care there and if that isn't the point of it all what is?

What if, a breeder on this board had a breeding.

And half the pups had aggression issues and half had genetic issues.

Funny that... I've seen that here... and wait... everyone LOVES that breeder.

Dizzy.....some of us know who and what FK is/does. We are not just going off of a few posts on this forum.

I don't want to join the argument.......it isn't what I do, LOL

BUT, I did visit her site and could find NO health testing info, and not all the dogs bred were champions (that doesn't mean alot to me) some were GOING to continue for points after motherhood (she claims)..........and selling pups through a service like nextdaypets DOES reflect badly in my opinion.

The point is she was asked to tell her practices......she didn't want to. She does however want to keep this thread going indefinitely arguing her point as do the other people who keep arguing with her.

No one is going to change their mind.........I don't see the point of coming back to argue more.

Not I!

Dizzy did you see the picture of the property that started this whole ordeal? When someone says that runs like that are acceptable, and that mass breeding is ethical, it is totally a different topic. Low immune systems in puppies has a rippling effect of misery and death that spreads through shelters, through other pets, the nightmare just goes on and on. Hosts like that create stronger viruses that are more resistant to our present treatments putting ALL dogs at risk. THat besides the horror of having litter after litter to pay someone's light bill are my greatest concerns.

btw i also now that many breeders keep the animals on low doses of antibiotics from the get go. Tetrecycline is added to the water. Happens all the time in the birds you get from petstores, so think what happens when that animal is suddenly getting none. They have had no time to adjust to normal bacteria. They get more when they are shipped to cover their arses too. So by the time the stressed animal GETS to the petstore, you have a "product" with some serious issues.

Yes I did.

You'll see my name mentioned in the 1st post if you were paying attention and reading them all

But what I am reading, and what you are seeing are 2 different things. I am looking at the content of the posts and reading it, you are seeing what other people think of the OP and jumping on the bandwagon without actually taking a tiny moment to THINK about what they are writing.

And I thought it was only me.

You see the hypocrisy that is RIFE on this board?

Dizzy, I'm not sure why you are so determined to defend someone who is willing to support a puppy mill property simply because it's "legal". Now, of course, SHE won't say it's a "puppy mill" because it's too easy to compare her situation (go to her website, you can see what she has) to the one that started this entire thread. There are definite similarities.

You said you googled her and found some people who spoke highly of her. I can find LOTS of people who speak highly of the Koehler method of dog training, which involves a high level of force and use of corrective collars. I can find people who speak in glowing terms about high-quantity, low-quality breeding operations. There was even a website awhile back where a guy described in detail how to acquire, butcher and cook household pets - and there were numerous comments supporting him!

ANYONE can have good comments, regardless of their actions. There are always people just as disgusting who are thrilled to find someone else like them.

The reason these threads keep going is because there's a basic disgust level that hits many of us here when we think of people treating their dogs as a business instead of as companions. As a business, dogs are simply property and can legally be treated in less than optimum ways. They can be housed in tiny pens, live most of their lives on wire, be fed the crappiest of food and be destroyed or discarded once their use is over. That's all legal. But to the people on this forum - people who treat dogs as living, breathing, FEELING creatures - it is appalling that anyone would CHOOSE to treat dogs poorly.

As a trainer, I see a huge number of behavioral problems that are breeder-caused. Housetraining, anxiety, fear-aggression .. these are all common in dogs that have not been properly handled as young puppies. And now we have a breeder - someone who has a LARGE number of dogs - coming on here and making excuses for bad breeders. This person is defending the legal rights of others to keep a high quantity of dogs in kennels and raised pens and we find it's because she is doing something very similar. Of COURSE we'd be outraged.

Something LEGAL isn't necessarily RIGHT. And just because we believe that dogs benefit (and deserve) good housing and handling doesn't mean we are AR activists. We simply think that dogs - bred as companion animals - should be treated as companion animals and not just as a business asset.

Speaking of genetics - FrenchK, what kind of health testing do you do on your Japanese chins? On the CHIC website, it shows that there are three tests recommended (by the national breed club, I understand) for that breed: eyes, patellas and cardiac. I don't recall seeing any mention of health testing on your chins.

Also, on your goldens .. how many CHIC dogs do you have? Goldens are listed for hips, elbows, eyes and cardiac and on your website you SAY many of these dogs have cleared all of those, but it isn't seen on the CHIC or OFA sites. The good breeders I know are very proud of the health certifications on their dogs and list OFA/OVC/CERF/CHIC numbers as well as any other pertinent information. After all, anyone could just SAY the dog passed.

It all goes back to good breeding practices .. of course, it's completely LEGAL to breed without health clearances ..

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I am not determined to defend anyone - I believe the OP can do that for themselves.

What I AM amused by is the level of hypocrisy and the constant contradictions.

I believe THAT is the issue for me.

I am going by what i have read, what i have asked, and what has been answered. That is what i always go by.

Should we humans not be a link to the dog's paradise too? If we're speaking of hypocrisy, why do you have a quote like that on the bottom of posts defending someone who thinks it's okay to keep large quanities of dogs in small pens - dogs who probably NEVER get to sit on a hillside.

It goes both ways, Dizzy. This is a board of opinions, and if someone posts on here that it's okay to keep dogs in the conditions shown in the original link (a place, let me remind everyone, that was advertised as being a good business opportunity, rated for 150 dogs) just because it's LEGAL, then it certainly is NOT hypocritical for those who believe otherwise to speak up.

How could we not speak up?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska