Real Working Dogs

Don't know what is responsible anymore

My problem is I really don't know what breeding practices are ok anymore . I've read and researched and listened to mentors. I can rattle off applicable health tests for the breeds I like, breed faults, which puppy temperament tests I want to see, weak sport structure, etc but I have discovered I really no longer know what is an ethical, moral breeding I would feel good about financially supporting.

A very intelligent, highly educated, and competitive colleague tells me she's getting that much anticipated second dog: a BC puppy from Dreams Come True Kennels (made that up ). I am excited for her. She researches everything. I go home and research the kennel 'cause it must be a good breeder.

• Well....there are eight litters planned and three litters on the ground. This includes purebreds and mixes. The gospel says puppy mill!
• There over 30 adult dogs in residence. Gospel says hoarder/mill!
• Some of the breedings have an outside stud or bitch and some are all resident dogs: gospel says backyard breeder!
• Most studs and bitches have a CGC, some have a couple health tests, some have a few low level sport titles, a couple outside dogs have a lot of performance titles. No CH; no one pairing has complete health tests and mid+ level performance titles. Gospel says backyard breeder.

So where do we go for a puppy? The sport miller? The sport byb? The confo breeder? Or...???
BostonBanker, I'm also a weekend warrior 9-5er . I think that is the majority of the sport market. Should those puppies not work out in those homes, can they successfully be placed as 100% pets? I doubt it. So then what?

^Yep. Popular is not the same as ethical. And there is no way my money would go to support people like that. I see no reason besides profits to breed bitches who by most definitions are seniors, or breed them 5, 6, 7 times each.

I saw a few MAS breeders like this when I was looking, on the surface their dogs were nice looking ... but they always had puppies and had like several litters at a time, and bred their males to two, or more females. Also in the photos, the puppies looked terrified, every one of them, like they stay in a kennel all the time and never go out :/

I'd rather see breeders adhere to rule #1: breed for soundness of body and temperament.

I'd love to see breeding stock all be used to work in their original purpose, but realistically there's more of ademand for pet and sport dogs than there ever will be again for real work animals. So rather than fight it, encourage the best breeding practices you can, educate, and don't be an elitist dick.

Ah, gotcha. I think the real answer to the question (for me, anyway) is to throw away the gospel and just decide on my own what is okay for me. Interestingly enough, it isn't the people in 'real life' who I find tend to be judgey about such things, but rather the people online. And at the end of the day, their opinions don't matter. If you aren't comfortable with people breeding mixes, then avoid those breeders. If you don't feel a breeder is properly testing their breeding dogs, don't get a puppy from them. For me, I need to be confident in my own decision (which isn't always easy, but certainly easier than pleasing everyone else), and then I'm able to brush off snide comments a little easier. Usually.

Of course the flip side is being willing to accept what other people are comfortable with. If that made up friend who researches everything and is professional and competitive is getting a puppy from Dreams Come True, then you have to assume that she found the same information you did (and maybe a lot more besides) and decided that she was comfortable with getting a puppy there. It's her decision and her dog.

Probably all of this is getting a little far off topic from the original one, but it's something I think about way too much, as I start to know more people getting sport bred dogs, and start thinking about where my own next dog will come from. I like hearing different sides of the discussion. Maybe in 100 years when I go puppy shopping, I'll be convinced I've looked at it from every angle!

Well said!

Yes, so hard. Also- laughed out loud at "elitist dick."

I think this is where you just decide what you personally believe is ethical. I would not buy a puppy from a breeder if that breeder did not do/have X,Y,Z.... I wouldn't follow a list- I would look at the breeding practices and think 3 major things. 1. If I exchanged one of those dogs with my dog- would I be happy with how he is being treated? and 2. Do the breeding practices and goals contribute something to the dog world? 3. Are the puppies guaranteed a home. What happens if they don't end up being purchased?

Obviously a lot (things like temperament and health testing) fits under these umbrella thoughts. Granted- I happen to have never purchased a dog from a breeder, but I have done research. When I was planning on getting a dog I looked at a a few breeders and specifically didn't choose one because they kept breeding even though their puppies weren't really selling. They just kept lowering and lowering prices on older pups, while breeding younger pups. Not for me.

Yes.

I like this one. I'm going to funnel that away...

But if we decide we are all fine with people getting dogs with places that they are comfortable with then aren't we just giving up the fight on BYBs and puppymills?

I tried very hard to steer someone I was working for to get a pup from a good breeder. She ended up going (and I know cause she paid me to go along) to a very interesting high end cabal on BYB and ended up paying more than 4X as much for a mixed puppy with essentially no guarantee and zero helath testing than I did for Schen. And she was VERY happy with her choice.

Should that be ok and we should all say well she was given the data so we should all be ok with the choice she made?

I am sure the little dog she got will be great, and she will love him. But these people will keep churning out puppies and keep selling them to wealthy people. (It was a surreal experience, they would bring the puppies you were looking at to this area in the basement. I don't know how many litters they had back in the back. The house looked like a show home in a magazine and very staged. Even the dog stuff seemed staged)

Oh boy, there was an ACD breeder like that a while back ... her lies finally caught up with her and she was busted. At the time I couldn't believe it ... she seems good, albeit crazy and fanatical and was the poster child for an "elitist dick".

With regards to that person - as opposed to what? You mention that you tried to steer her towards a good breeder. So I assume that means she knew the differences between what you would consider a good breeder and the breeder she chose. She got the dog she got. What would be the next step? Do you try to talk her into returning it or giving it up? Berate her regularly for her decision?

I have no issue with people educating others as to what they consider good breeders, but ultimately the decision is theirs. A friend of mine got a BC from a bigger sport breeder. Super dog savvy person, does a ton of research on stuff, and smart. I looked at the website, the contract - and asked her a few questions along the lines of "wow I saw x on the contract; that doesn't worry you?". And she rationally explained why it didn't. I can say, despite the fact that I LOVE the dog she got, and the others I know from the same breeder, that I'm not sure I'd wind up being comfortable with that contract. Does that mean I'm right and she's wrong? Or vice-versa? Is it not a Good Breeder because there's something I don't feel comfortable with in the contract? Should I have tried to talk her out of it because I didn't like a couple of policies?

Obviously there are breeders out there where we are all going to agree they are bad breeders. But I don't think there is a specific location for that Line Ye Shall Not Cross. And I do think that is okay. Everyone is going to prioritize different things. I think education is key - presenting people with the information they need, in a way that is not going to put them on the defensive, while they are still in the research stage. But there is a point where the person has the information, and makes a decision, and has a dog - and then, in my opinion, it is time to shut up. It is no longer my business (not that it ever really was to begin with), the money has changed hands, and all I will do is wish them the best with the dog.

There is a MAS breeder who states in their contract that they don't take pups back once they leave the premises because of "infectious diseases" what ... ever

Defining good breeder

This thread turned to sport but since there is so little need for real working dogs, I think the direction it took is relevant.

I LOVE the suggestion to imagine your dog living with that breeder. Brilliant! I'd be comfortable with my dog living with some bybs... but gospel says don't support bybs.

I guess if I don't follow the common gospel or draw a line, I really won't know how to sift through ethical vs unethical. Ethics is very important to me when financing the increase of a pet overpopulation and paying for an intentionally produced pet.

I still don't know what a good breeder is. And maybe I'm not so sure what a bad breeder is, anymore. I guess it doesn't really matter since I'm not shopping for a puppy. (Though people do ask me to help them find a breeder because I'm "the dog person." PS I need to find a Golden breeder in the Mid-Atlantic.)

Just a funny thought that popped into my head after reading this.... I've actually some BYB that I think I would be more comfortable with my dog living with than some reputable breeders I've met.

There is a swissy breeder that does all relevant health testing, her dogs have multiple sport and conformation titles... and they also live in crates in the garage for most of the day unless she's working with them(there are no behavioral problems with these dogs that they need to be separated).

There are a lot of BYBs around, and some of them are just family pets that they keep breeding... but the dogs are with the family all day. They are extremely loved pets even if they don't have the health testing and titles.

Not that I am trying to say one is better than the other... just food for thought.

I was thinking this too. Pretty much all of my non-dog friends with dogs from breeders got them from BYBs exactly like this. The dogs are loved and cared for as family pets and treated very well. The dogs we got when I was a kid were from the same situation. I would be more comfortable sending my dog to live with those people than some "reputable" breeders I've met.

I agree with you to an extent. Ideally, we'd all have our unicorn breeders, the ones who do everything perfectly and have the perfect puppy from the perfect litter available when you're able to add a dog to the family. I got my unicorn breeder as a 15 year old looking to branch out further into a breed that is generally not ideal for 15 year olds, and I got LUCKY. I also had to travel across the country and back for my unicorn puppy, something that a lot of people aren't willing or able to do.

However, I still fully agree that just because someone is comfortable and happy to get a puppy from a pet store doesn't mean it's ethical to do so. BYBs and Puppymills will never put the level of care, consideration and straight up money into a litter that a responsible breeder would. I will never feel like it's "ok" to give money to someone who isn't at least putting their efforts into breeding for soundness.

Demand is an issue that has to be taken seriously.

My breed of choice for example. There's a high demand for border collies as sport dogs, and these dogs will probably never see a sheep except to chase them around a pen for an "instinct test". People don't want them because they have livestock that need to be moved, they want them because their breeding as stockdogs lends them to be excellent partners in dog sports. This puts the breeders of actual working stockdogs in a bit of a pickle, since these breeders are often also farmers and farmers who use stockdogs have been on a slow decline for some time.

We can't remove the demand for sport dogs, nor can we expect solid breeders of working sheepdogs to breed more litters to meet this demand (sports/pets) that they care nothing about. So what is ethical in this situation?

I play a bit of devil's advocate here, but my honest opinion is that (at least in my breed) the breed's working purpose is the one that has shaped these dogs into such awesome sport or working partners. I feel that straying away from this purpose will cause a decline in the quality of the dogs being produced.

As elitist and shitty as it sounds, I notice a greater mental capacity in my working line dog than I did in my sport and show line dogs. I have not had a "dud" border collie. All of them are highly intelligent, high drive and eager to learn. The working line dog simply seems to function on a different level. Since the working dog was literally an infant, she's been capable of immense impulse control, she learns faster, retains information better and has a sensibility about her that none of my dogs from non-working lines have demonstrated.

I'll always wait for a puppy out of working stockdogs from now on, because I've been so happy with this dog and the other stockdogs I've spent time with.

Well if we're honest I'd rather get a dog from some 'BYBs' than many of the big name kennels out there because of this.

I have often thought of this too, actually. Whenever I go to dog events and sporting things and whatnot, it's not that the people DON'T love their dogs, obviously they do, but there is definitely a different vibe/feel from a lot of them for me, that is so different from just "pet owners" at a festival-type event (ex: we have a local Barkin Bash at a state park). I don't really know how to explain it. I guess the dogs to me are treated more like a child/family vs... an athlete? I dunno, I'm wording it wrong, because I obviously have nothing against dog sports and love them. I guess it's just a totally different vibe for me.

And I mean, my moms new cockapoo puppy is very clearly a mixed breed, she doesn't participate in any sort of training whatsoever with her dogs, but she does make sure her dogs are healthy and brings them to the vet often, and does health testing prior to breeding and her breeding dog is also her pet dog. She has the mom and dad as pets. These are dogs that are literally just treated as members of the family like any other pet, and the puppy we have shows how great she was, IMO, she had been exposed to everything and shows no fear, she is extremely socialable, easy to train, friendly, the list goes on and on. Yet by most dog-peoples standards, she would be a "backyard breeder" simply for the fact that she's breeding mixes. Even though she only has 3 dogs and has 2 litters a year and the pups are very clearly well treated and going to good homes.

I've changed a lot through the years. For a while there, I was so black/white and I just "knew" what a good breeder was vs. a bad breeder. Now I feel like the line is not so clear. I mean to me, pet stores and puppy mills are completely off limits, and I would NEVER encourage someone to buy a dog from somewhere like that simply because of how horrible of a life the breeding dogs left behind live and to be treated that way just makes me sick. But a hobby breeder... someone breeding their pet dogs and able to put them all into decent homes.... is it so bad? Maybe it's not ideal but the market is obviously not going to stop, people will continue to get dogs from people like this.

I remember schooling my uncle on where to get his GSD puppy from, and he was shocked at the $1500-$2000 price tag on a lot of them and ended up getting a $500 puppy from an Amish farm. I was scared for him, and she does have some reactivity issues with other dogs (but from what I understand that's common in them anyway) but otherwise she's a GREAT freaking dog and I like her better than most of the other GSDs I meet. I like Jackson 1000x better than any Yorkies I meet from so called "great breeders".

I don't know, I'm not sure what to think anymore, lol. I still have great admiration and respect for breeders who "do it right" and would love a dog from a breeder such as this, and yeah I'm pretty picky about where I'll get futuredog, so I have my own set of standards to live by, but I guess I'm over judging where other people get their dogs from (for the most part... again I will speak up if said-puppy hasn't been purchased yet, and it's very clearly coming from a mill etc).

I don't think there is ONE type of ideal breeder. But people doing their best and covering many bases.

For example Schen's breeder. All her dogs live in her house. All 13! Many sleep in the bedroom at night. They have a Crestie from rescue and they really promote the breed. They do all the health testing and have oodles upon oodles of CH dogs. However there are no titles other than CH. She breeds many many litters a year. Her health guarantee is very short. But I was comfortable with her. She breeds many dogs but they are in high demand. For the price I paid I am find with no real long term guarantee - she did her best with all the testing. She is quite involved with helping the breed. She shows a clear love of the dogs she has as well as the wellfare of dogs in general. Would I say she is my idea of an ideal breeder? No but I was clearly happy enough to get a puppy from her.

So I don't think its as clear cut as well some sport breeders are a little cold and I like a few BYBs attitudes about their pets better so really BYBs aren't bad. If BYB keep track of their dogs and make sure they go to good homes and do their best to make sure they don't end up in shelters or rescues... then fine. The goal should be the welfare of the dogs you are producing as well as welfare of dogs in general. (Ie are you passing down diseases or problems that will hurt dogs down the road)

And as soon as we start saying well as long as they really love their pets its fine if they breed them... Its not really just about love. Its about the dogs. We need to have some objective standards (health testing, making sure they don't end up dumped etc) in order to be as kind as possible to the end product - the dogs.