A weight discussion: how far is too far?

Argon is at his healthiest when you can see his ribs as he moves, and see a suggestion of his hipbones. As a sighthound mix, this is appropriate for him. Right now, due to an illness and injury, he's a bit roly poly. He needs to loose about 3 lbs (bringing him down to 22). People are still telling me he's too thin.

Gambit is finally filling out. He's built very much like Traveller, and if they weren't impossible to find in the US, I would swear that he's a Koolie mix instead of a coydog. Desptite having a thickish coat (think lab) I could see all ribs and his hips. He was too thin, but he seemed to be thriving. now that he's a little older, no hips and minimal ribs.

Finn's a bit of an odd shape compared to a lot of the other fit dog photos in this thread. His parents are shaped similarly, and I've seen a lot of stockdog BCs with his shape. Here's a ref photo taken today, since he was a bit wet and you can actually see an inkling of his shape:



He's never ever had a significant "tuck-up" in his waist in a side view, not since he was about a year. The tuck is there, just not extremely prominent. That said, his ribs are easily felt with a quick pass, he's quite narrow from top view, and he has a very defined waist (when felt, and seen when wet LOL). You can also see a hint at the strong muscle definition in his hind legs - his hindquarters and shoulders are pretty ripped from all the running. He's in pretty prime shape above - not conditioned or anything, but extremely fit and lean. He's hovering around 45lbs right now - last winter he was closer to 52lbs.

But, he's boxy. Very square shaped and sturdy. His lineage has a lot of square-built dogs.

As far as the original question: I think a lot of it is a matter of breed and personal preference. As we can see here, many folks prefer very conditioned, toned dogs. But many are also pleased with the basics of being in shape: easily felt ribs and waist. I'm a bit in the middle on that preference level - I like Finn to stay trim and pretty well-muscled simply because I ask a lot of him, and I want his body to stay on par with his energy level.

My biggest pet peeve is seeing mellow dogs that are also fat, and the excuse that they're lazy. Hah. This is Cooper, my co-worker's St. Bernard/Newfoundland:


Not the best pic, I know, but it's clear to see that this dog is not fat. He is the laziest dog in existence (he lays like this at the store all. day.) AND he's fed Orijen, but he's nice and lean. Bones don't show, ribs easily felt, etc. One of the leanest, nicest-shaped large dogs I've seen in the store. Lauren takes him on three short walks a day, and otherwise just portions his food well.

There's no excuse for a fat dog, really. If the dog is lazy, be more aware of food intake. If your dog needs exercise, give it to them!

MandyPug, you have the nicest looking pug I've ever seen. I love the body condition!

As for the 1st APBT pic, I'm having a hard time really getting a good visual as something about the pic is bothering my eyes...the angle maybe? Anyway, from what I can tell, it appears to me that this dog was "starved down" vs. conditioned for show. Sadly, some lazy owners find it all too easy to get a dog "in shape" by cutting back it's food so severely that it carries very little body weight which does indeed let muscle show. However, the muscle you see isn't conditioned lean muscle tissue. It looks flabby.

With that said, APBTs should be lean dogs. They were working dogs and should be working dogs so there form should represent such.

As for a dog that is the proper weight, when looking from above you should see a definite tuck in behind the rib cage before the hindquarters. When looking straight on from the side, you should see a tuck up behind the abdomen in front of the hind end. No tuck = too much weight.

There is a difference between an overweight dog and obese dog and morbidly obese dog. But what people need to remember is that a dog's musculoskeletal system was only designed to carry so much weight. Even an extra 5 lbs can put undue stress upon joints, ligaments, and tendons and cause temporary, and even permanent, health issues. And even worse is the internal fat. The heart is a muscle. Surround it by lots of fat and it has to struggle to pump. Add in that it has to circulate for a much larger creature thanks to all the extra weight, and now you've got an increased risk for cardiac issues (including heart attacks).

**now I'm off to read past page 1

Your dog is thick because of it's genetic make-up. Depending upon it's breeding, it is either an APBT, AST, American Bully, or generic "pit bull". The AST has been bred for thicker body structure often in a box shape. Function has pretty much left the building except in very few cases. American Bullies were bred for nothing but their looks and color. Their thicker size comes from the outcrossing to Neopolitan Mastiffs and English Bulldogs (Dave Wilson admitted doing so to create his Razer's Edge line), and others crossed out to Dogue de Bordeauxs, Bullmastiffs (Camelot dogs for the DDB and BM), Bandogs, and American Bulldogs to increase size.

I'm glad you keep your dog lean, because he looks to be one that would gain weight at the sniff of a treat. Maybe not. Just my opinion based upon his structure.

I am contemplating dunking Summer in the tub just to get a good pic. she would not approve of that. lol

Fran, while you like the looks of those dogs, they are indeed overweight. That Beagle will soon be obese in a few more pounds (if not already).

This is TarBaby at 7 years of age. He's easily carrying 5-7 more pounds than he would be if I were to have him in condition to go hog hunting.

I've deleted almost every online dog picture I have, so I'll just post what's left.

This was Mia. Even here she's carrying more pounds that she would be if in condition to go hog hunting. In this picture she was at her normal "chain weight".

Allie, can we compare Finn and Eve's pedigrees sometime? Curious to see what is in both of them. They have a similar build now that they've both grown up.

Eve has hair that tends to hide her shape. This is her at maybe 9 months old, and she was very thin. Her ribs jutted out, her hip bones jutted out, her spine jutted out. She was not emaciated, but had no fat on her body at all. People told me she was too thin, but I thought she was in the shape she should be for a young border collie.



Here is a picture of her at the same age, just wet.



Nowadays she's not working sheep, not playing any sports and she's a fatass. She's at the weight most people would consider "ideal" and I think she's way too fat. She also has sprouted 35972952 cowlicks and appears far deeper-chested and front-heavy than she actually is. Fur is so deceiving. This picture is from a year ago but you get the idea.



And more recently, and fatter (and with wilder ungroomed hair)

Eve is still the prettiest BC ever. She's just got such an aura about her. I really really love her and hope my BC is a tenth as gorgeous as she is.

Summer then:



Summer now (note, her hair grew in post spay all cowlicky and MUCH thicker so that's part of it too)

summerweight by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Mia is fat right now. Sigh

maifat by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Not every dog should look alike just like not every human should. It used to be fun and rewarding to condition down my apbts but now that I have dogs that I have to fight to keep weight on my desires have changed some. Long as my dog is healthy and happy I don't care much anymore what they look like. I do still take grand pleasure in rippling muscles but I lack the pleasure in showing bones proving just how lean my dog is anymore.

I'm currently trying very hard to fatten up my sewer rats.

I don't really worry much about the weight of my dogs unless they're going too far in one direction or the other. Chloe has been up and down, she fluctuates a lot. She's really muscular though. Violet is still growing of course, so she fluctuates as well. Also, she's in winter coat, so she looks much bigger than she is.

48lbs begining to develop a winter coat:







48lbs with thick winter coat:





She looks really different depending on how coated she is. Hopefully this summer I can get some pictures of her wet.

I'm more obsessed with Frodo's weight than I should be, but I've gotten way better about it than I used to be!

I prefer a dog on the slim side, but I've learned to stop comparing Frodo to other dog breeds. He's never going to have rippling muscles like a lot of dogs, it's just not gonna happen. Frodo could stand to lose a bit and to be more toned, but honestly, he looks better than 90% of the corgis I have seen. I tried to cut back his food and increase his exercise, he ended up getting sick. Not worth it.

LIKE!

For the BC talk. Sport went though a phase were he was bony all over. Thank goodness for hair!! He was all ribs, hip bones and angles. Its hard when they are young and wont' stay still.

The other thing to remember its not healthy to stay bulked up all the time. Even for bulky breeds. That is why body builders often build up for competitions and then rest.

Miakoda>> your chain weight looks like a less muscled version (likely due to genetics) of how I like my JRTs to look in the winter (non competing months)

The thing is joints don't know the difference between 5 pounds of fat and 5 pounds of muscle. My guys get all muscley from doing sports, not from doggy body building so I don't worry too much. A fit dog will be healthier over all, but joint wear is going to suck on the over muscled dogs too.

LIKE x2

I'm not talking about dog obesity here. I mean just dogs that aren't hog hunting ready.. Is it really such a huge deal?

as far as joint problems, joints don't know the difference between 5 pounds of muscle and fat.
Sooo..joint health wise, they are in the same boat.

..and hog hunting? I mean, sure, if your dogs are going hog hunting than I guess that kind of performance figure makes sense...but other wise, I just don't see the necessity nor do I see the work worth the outcome for me or my dog personally.
I am not going to sit around calculating chain weights and conditioning and training..
And don't misunderstand, to those who want to do so, PROPS TO YOU but I certainly don't think I am killing my dog by just keeping him in general good health, feeding him well, exercising regularly and not giving a flying FIG about his total muscle tone or chain weight lol

Could the dogs I pictures bear to lose a few pounds? sure. but I don't believe that their health is honestly that affected by it nor do I think that is a bad thing!
the beagle, sure, I suppose as a small breed the extra weight pictured is a bit much. but the two others? I just don't see it. I have seen dogs whose weights affect their health and those dogs... well, I just don't see it personally.
Could they STAND to lose a few? yes. but will they honestly lead horrible short lives because they keep em? Doubt it.

I am a huge advocate for dog health and keeping your dogs exercised and feeding your dog WELL
but I don't think every dog needs to look totally toned and conditioned to be healthy.
Props to owners (like the black pit featured in my first post) who take it amongst themselves to keep their dogs in total conditioning ready whatever. Really, props to them, it does take dedication.
but I don't think it's the end all be all of dog health or that a dog is less healthy because it doesn't look that way
I think the later APBT is just as healthy, and that neither of their weights will stops them from living happy long lives.

I am not a tri-athlete, I don't have 0% body fat, I don't run on a threadmill for hours a day, I don't know what my muscles look like in certain places lol
but I keep healthy the best I can. I keep my weight in check, I eat right, I exercise... and I do think I am healthy and I do the same for my dogs.
and I don't think I am killing them or me by approaching health this way

Just my 2 cents.


and even if I wanted to.. doubt Romeo is going to look like that dog anytime soon lol

This is true, but muscle has other benefits, like supporting joints and burning calories, that fat lacks. That's why I prefer presence of muscle but absence of fat - and why if my dog stays at 37 lbs but goes from pudgy to muscular, I still think she's better than her 37 lbs chubby.

But even better would be to bring her down to 35 lbs while still upping the muscle and peeling off the fat.

In all honesty I believe my dog Beau SETS the standard for what the ideal weight for a Beagle should be, my vet agrees. He's a healthy 17 pounds in these and these were this past summer, he's about 24 pounds right now for the winter.

Does beau have really short legs or is it the photo angle?

He has short stubby legs...he's only like 13.5' at the shoulder.

I definitely see (or more often feel, because hair makes seeing hard) some dogs at agility trials who I believe are too skinny. I think a lot of it is the young BC thing - I don't think these people are starving their dogs, and I certainly wouldn't make that judgment on any of them.

I like my dogs lean and muscular, but I don't feel compelled to see sunken hips or the ribs right behind the elbow. I think some of it is the health issues Tristan has had over the years - I know just how fast super lean can turn into "do we need to put this animal down" when something goes wrong. I don't like my animals to have zero reserves of body fat.

I think most of the dogs pictured look fantastic - Stardogs' four shots, for example, look to me like healthy, active, fit dogs. Do I think there are a few who look "thin for thins sake"? Maybe. I don't have my hands on them, I don't know what they are eating, I don't know their health history - again, certainly not going to judge it. My dogs are fit and healthy. I simply wish the same for everyone