Ludwig my Pug!

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Cheza

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BrindeyPug said:
Curious, how do you know they do not health test or do anything with their dogs? I don't believe you know the breeder....just because they are breeding a non-standard color, and you don't think they look like a Pug, they aren't doing things and are a BYB?
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They're a BYB outfit because they're using a different breed to introduce a non-or-looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnng dead color into the Pug breed. If pugs were brindle, we'd have known about it for... most of the breed's history up until present. There's a "chocolate" gene in Great Danes that some people have recently started breeding for. I don't like it, but it's a legitimate recessive color and so if they want to try and breed it true and present to the AKC, good for them. They aren't mixing a Dane with a Lab and and a few generations down advertising the dog as purebred.

What do they do with their dogs? Conformation is obviously out. Obedience? Dock diving? Agility? Weight pull? Tracking? Anything? Bueller? What do they health test for?

It isn't that I just don't think they look like purebred pugs, it's that they're not. I've met purebred pugs that don't look like purebred pugs but they're still purebred pugs. Your dog isn't a purebred pug.
 
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#42
BrindeyPug said:
Curious, how do you know they do not health test or do anything with their dogs? I don't believe you know the breeder....just because they are breeding a non-standard color, and you don't think they look like a Pug, they aren't doing things and are a BYB?
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The black "pug" you posted does not look like a pug at all to me. That was why it screamed BYB. The muzzle looks like a frenchie. Pugs do not have that droop in their muzzles like that.

If they are not breeding dogs that look like pugs, people assume that they aren't doing proper health testing as well.
 
Laurelin

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This picture is from a chihuahua book from the 1940s (I think- can't remember). So it IS completely different than brindle in pugs.
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Not really in my eyes. First, I don't think that picture is clearly merle to be honest. It could be but I'm just not sure. There are paintings of brindle pugs too, though. So to me that's similar, actually.

Yeah I used chis because it's one of the most prominent cases of color controversy out there. And yeah it seems relevant to me here too because you have a merle chi and were really seeming against this breeder because of this quote:

Mixing in a new color (even if this color occured WAY in the past but has since been bred out) does not improve the breed. There are so many other ways to improve a breed rather than mixing in other breeds to get a certain color.
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To me these are two cases of the exact same thing.

I never said I was against merle in chis or whatnot. I honestly don't care one way or another. I find the genetics and playing genetic detective interesting so to speak. I like trying to figure out how things came to be. It's like I said in my prior post that merle in shelties was also an added color, not in the original breed. Erect ears in papillons were probably crossed in too and probably mostly for fashion. I think these things happen a lot more than most people want to admit.

It's just to me the same thing. I don't see it any different.
 
Taqroy

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#44
Your dog is really adorable! And I'm finding the rest of this conversation really interesting. Does your breeder health test? I think that you might not be met with so much resistance if you called your dog a Pug mix....but it's up to you. I can imagine I would have a gotten a similar response if I had posted a picture of my dog Mu when I joined and called her a mini-heeler (she's a corgi/heeler mix). It comes across as mis-representing a breed (to me, YMMV and blah blah blah ;)).


Still. Very cute dog. :)
 
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#45
Laurelin said:
Not really in my eyes. First, I don't think that picture is clearly merle to be honest. It could be but I'm just not sure. There are paintings of brindle pugs too, though. So to me that's similar, actually.

Yeah I used chis because it's one of the most prominent cases of color controversy out there. And yeah it seems relevant to me here too because you have a merle chi and were really seeming against this breeder because of this

Mixing in a new color (even if this color occured WAY in the past but has since been bred out) does not improve the breed. There are so many other ways to improve a breed rather than mixing in other breeds to get a certain color. To me these are two cases of the exact same thing.

I never said I was against merle in chis or whatnot. I honestly don't care one way or another. I find the genetics and playing genetic detective interesting so to speak. I like trying to figure out how things came to be. It's like I said in my prior post that merle in shelties was also an added color, not in the original breed. Erect ears in papillons were probably crossed in too and probably mostly for fashion. I think these things happen a lot more than most people want to admit.

It's just to me the same thing. I don't see it any different.
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Funny how you said it was a "general you" and now you're saying it was purposely for ME.

Like I said, I purchased Chloe over 5 years ago. Would I do it again? No. Did she come from a breeder who did the right things? Yes. I'm not sticking up for merle. Like I said, I wouldn't buy another merle chihuahua.

Didn't your Shelties come from an ad in the paper? Would you do it again? That means you support BYBs since you purchased some from the paper before ;)

ETA: It's not just the brindle color in pugs I'm against... those parents look NOTHING like pugs.
 
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#46
Cheza said:
What do they do with their dogs? Conformation is obviously out. Obedience? Dock diving? Agility? Weight pull? Tracking? Anything? Bueller? What do they health test for?
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I think until these questions are answered, it's pretty much fair game to assume BYB here...
 
Grab

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#47
Adding in other brachycephalic breeds to get a flashy color, though, really doesn't improve the breed..it's just adding spiffy colors to sell pups. I cannot imagine a reputable breeder of, say, Bostons, (reputable breeders meaning ones who health test...poorly bred Bostons and Frenchies can have numerous health issues)selling to someone wanting to cross into another breed for color. And even if brindle was a color once long, long ago, the blue/ticked houndy color that they're trying to "add" on that other dog is not. With the exception of the hound colored dog (whose face isn't visible), they do look like Pug crossed with either Frenchie or Boston. They do seem to have a longer muzzle, which can be good, but those breeds have their own health issues, so I'd hope it wasn't eliminating one health issue only to be introducing another. I'd rather have a dog with bugged out eyes than one who seizes, for example.

The OP's dog is very adorable, and (whatever his genetic makeup) is, I am certain, a fabulous family member and much loved.
 
Laurelin

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#48
~Jessie~ said:
To me these are two cases of the exact same thing.

I never said I was against merle in chis or whatnot. I honestly don't care one way or another. I find the genetics and playing genetic detective interesting so to speak. I like trying to figure out how things came to be. It's like I said in my prior post that merle in shelties was also an added color, not in the original breed. Erect ears in papillons were probably crossed in too and probably mostly for fashion. I think these things happen a lot more than most people want to admit.

It's just to me the same thing. I don't see it any different.
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Like I said, I purchased Chloe over 5 years ago. Would I do it again? No. Did she come from a breeder who did the right things? Yes. I'm not sticking up for merle. Like I said, I wouldn't buy another merle chihuahua.

Didn't your Shelties come from an ad in the paper? Would you do it again? That means you support BYBs since you purchased some from the paper before ;)[/QUOTE]

I honestly never heard you talk about merle in chis so I didn't know your opinion on the matter. What I was getting from your posts was that adding color via other breeds is a bad thing always. It just seemed not to match up to me to be honest so I said something. I just really didn't understand how the two scenarios are different.

One sheltie came from an ad in the paper. I was 9 years old when I picked her out, lol. I don't really see what that matters honestly. I think I've said all over the place I didn't get her from a reputable source. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.
 
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#49
Lizmo said:
I think until these questions are answered, it's pretty much fair game to assume BYB here...
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I'm going to assume she's searching the internet for the appropriate tests for pugs now, and looking into what they can compete in, etc.

I have nothing against her or her dog. I don't like people supporting BYBs but I do like these forums as a resource for those who do read the "rare color" ads and think they would like one of those puppies.

The OPs dog is adorable, brindle is a beautiful color. Thing is, when you see a dog of a color that isn't a known color for that breed, it is immediately obvious that the dog is in fact not a purebred dog. It's facts Vs. what someone wants to believe about their dog and a skewed notion of what's best for the breed itself.
 
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Davishall Chihuahuas (a very well known show breeder) breeds merles. A good bit of them have their championships.

Anyway, here's a link to some merle pictures.

History of the Blue Merle Chihuahua

If anyone really wants to discuss merle further in chihuahuas, I'd love to respond with more information in a separate thread :)

ETA: "General you" (me) knows nothing about merle in cockers and poms, so obviously I can't give an opinion on that. Like I said, I did not know much about the merle controversy before I bought Chloe. I liked her breeder, liked her dogs, and decided to go with her.
 
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~Jessie~

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#51
Laurelin said:
I honestly never heard you talk about merle in chis so I didn't know your opinion on the matter. What I was getting from your posts was that adding color via other breeds is a bad thing always. It just seemed not to match up to me to be honest so I said something. I just really didn't understand how the two scenarios are different.

One sheltie came from an ad in the paper. I was 9 years old when I picked her out, lol. I don't really see what that matters honestly. I think I've said all over the place I didn't get her from a reputable source. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.
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I posted about merle in chis in a thread you posted in a few years ago. Here's a link to my post.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t87471-2/#post1224623

Again, seeing brindle pugs that look nothing like pugs is different than merle in chihuahuas.
 
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#52
Cheza said:
I'm going to assume she's searching the internet for the appropriate tests for pugs now, and looking into what they can compete in, etc.
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Wow. I don't need to prove anything to you guys. After this comment I don't want to. Yes, it gets to me. Why is this posted? Because I didn't post right away with answers for you all?

Go ahead and think they're from some terrible breeder and I'm supporting "BYBs". I'm fine if you want that to be your constant thought, but after this I will not be proving anything.

I didn't know I was such an idiot that I'd have to go look all this up just so I could please all of you.
 
Kat09Tails

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#53
Lizmo said:
I think until these questions are answered, it's pretty much fair game to assume BYB here...
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I guess... pugs are not a working breed. Going or not going to a dog show IMO doesn't make someone in toys a byb. There is a very prominent breeder in my own breed who you will very rarely see at a dog show, there are more who are breed club members who while you will see them at a dog show you'll almost never see them or any of their get do performance events, or health test for that matter. Are they all bybers? Maybe... personally I don't think competition is a gold standard for anything in dogs but breeding more dogs for that competition. Fine for greyhounds maybe not so great for housedogs.

It might just be that she's breeding for the new UK standard which demands a bridge on a pugs nose. There have always been dark tones spoken anytime a trend pops up in a breed... blue in labradors, must have be crossed with weims, merle cropping up must be from crossbreeding, bobtailed boxers aren't real boxers, LUA dals are mutts... whatever... This kind of thinking gets people nowhere. At what percentage is the dog the breed it is identified as no matter what color is on the surface? or does color matter that much?
 
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#54
I agree that the smushy nose is a little too smushy but that doesn't have much to do with color and other features that are a little less than puggish.

To the OP, you came on here to prove your dog is a purebred pug from a responsible breeder and have failed to do so. When you imply that your breeder in fact does health test and prove their dogs worthiness to parent litters, yes I am going to expect some proof. If you don't give it, I'm going to believe you're lying and you do in fact know that your dog is a mix of something bred by a typical BYB who loves their dogs, but doesn't strive to better the breed.

Good luck with it all, if I see brindled pugs in competition in a few years I'll fondly think of you ;)
 
Laurelin

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Thanks for the link. I really don't remember that thread at all.

To me... I am not talking about her pugs specifically anymore per say but more about the objections to the breeder in general for crossing for a color specifically. I have seen some very typey (to me) brindle pugs as I have seen your Chloe (who looks like a to standard chi to me) then I see some brindle pugs and merle chis that are clearly mixed. I wouldn't object to the color based on some dogs not looking 'like pugs'. I have seen pictures of some that look a lot like show quality pugs (if we're basing quality on show quality, which I disagree with but I digress...)

I just have a hard time understanding WHY it was okay in the past to crossbreed for different colors, different coats, different sizes, etc but suddenly it's not anymore. I agree that merle chis have been around a while- at least a few decades, but I still think the color came in via another breed. Just like I think merle came into shelties via collies at the turn of the century(actually that's documented). Or that I think erect ears from papillons came from a cross to spitz hundreds of years ago. For some reason there seems to be a cutoff point. Ie: it was okay to cross breed back then but it's certainly not okay now.

Btw, I think adding a dog to a genepool based solely or primarily on color is not a good idea just in case that isn't clear.
 
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You have a very cute dog - I'm not saying pug, I'm not saying mix, I'm not saying BYB... I just said dog.


That said... are we really supporting and defending a breeder who appears only to be breeding for new colors? I have no problem with breeders breeding for new colors as long as they are still being responsible breeders - health testing, and proving their dogs in some sort of venue. What I will not support is a BYB whose main goal is to introduce or bring back color, just for color's sake.

Yes, the majority of show pug breeders have made their breed into an abomination - fat, flabby dogs with smooshed faces that can't seem to do anything except waddle around a show ring. But does that automatically mean that every non-show Pug breeder is acceptable and worthy of defending? I sure hope not! One faction's negative impact on a breed do not negate the wrongdoing and irresponsibility of another.
 
Linds

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#57
Cheza said:
To the OP, you came on here to prove your dog is a purebred pug from a responsible breeder and have failed to do so.
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Or she came here to be on a dog forum with other dog people without being ripped to shreds while being able to share pictures of her adorable dog but has been "forced" into defending herself.
 
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#58
Laurelin said:
Thanks for the link. I really don't remember that thread at all.

To me... I am not talking about her pugs specifically anymore per say but more about the objections to the breeder in general for crossing for a color specifically. I have seen some very typey (to me) brindle pugs as I have seen your Chloe (who looks like a to standard chi to me) then I see some brindle pugs and merle chis that are clearly mixed. I wouldn't object to the color based on some dogs not looking 'like pugs'. I have seen pictures of some that look a lot like show quality pugs (if we're basing quality on show quality, which I disagree with but I digress...)

I just have a hard time understanding WHY it was okay in the past to crossbreed for different colors, different coats, different sizes, etc but suddenly it's not anymore. I agree that merle chis have been around a while- at least a few decades, but I still think the color came in via another breed. Just like I think merle came into shelties via collies at the turn of the century(actually that's documented). Or that I think erect ears from papillons came from a cross to spitz hundreds of years ago. For some reason there seems to be a cutoff point. Ie: it was okay to cross breed back then but it's certainly not okay now.

Btw, I think adding a dog to a genepool based solely or primarily on color is not a good idea just in case that isn't clear.
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I'm also sure that longcoated chis were mixed at some point... not sure which breed it came from, but the original chihuahua was larger and short coated.

My opinion is that most breeds have health issues that should be fixed before other colors are added in. Why breed two dogs that don't even look like their particular breed?

I can understand breeds where colors were added in decades ago- but why now? Why add in other breeds that aren't fixing health issues? Badly bred frenchies have an array of health issues... so why mix them in with pugs?

Poorly bred dachshunds have been added into chihuahuas for the really distinct "deer" head look- why add a breed that can have back issues in with chihuahuas (which badly bred can have knee issues as well)?

We should be helping breeds rather than hindering them. I just think purposely mixing breeds to add color (and then claiming they're pure breds) is pointless. It's one thing if you're trying to improve the breed as a whole by adding something else in that happens to come in anoher color.

ETA: Had the OP come on here and posted pictures of well bred pug parents, I would not have as much of an issue with the color. I've never seen a brindle pug in real life OR on any dog forums. The OP's dog's parents definitely do not look like pugs, though.
 
Laurelin

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#59
SizzleDog said:
That said... are we really supporting and defending a breeder who appears only to be breeding for new colors? I have no problem with breeders breeding for new colors as long as they are still being responsible breeders - health testing, and proving their dogs in some sort of venue. What I will not support is a BYB whose main goal is to introduce or bring back color, just for color's sake.
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I'm not supporting the breeder at all, just withholding judgement. It just really... irks me whenever someone posts pictures to share of their dog and people go straight into the 'you bought your dog from a bad breeder! Shame on you!' spiel. It's all speculation- we don't know any facts, we're just guessing. It does no good at all for anyone.

MOST people can post pictures of their dogs without people attacking their breeder choice.
 
Linds

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#60
Laurelin said:
I'm not supporting the breeder at all, just withholding judgement. It just really... irks me whenever someone posts pictures to share of their dog and people go straight into the 'you bought your dog from a bad breeder! Shame on you!' spiel. It's all speculation- we don't know any facts, we're just guessing. It does no good at all for anyone.

MOST people can post pictures of their dogs without people attacking their breeder choice.
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Perfectly said.
 
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